any chances for EU pilots in Asia?/Ex Mas Pilots, (Merged).

[Joe_Bar]

Hello

Are there any chances for an EU pilot with JAR licence 1500 tt and a B737 rating looking for a FO position in Asia?

It seems that most of the companies only hire expat captains through agencies.

But maybe you can prove me wrong.


Cheers JB

[speedtwoten]

:) yes it happen only if will accept low salary compare to EU country but, :confused: reverse the situation can Captain not yet FO get a job in EU country?????:{ something magic hope David Copperfield will change this situation:ok:

[Robert Palmer]

Speedtwoten:

If I read your post right you claim that Far East pilots (Malaysians) can not get a job in EU?!?

I think the answer to that lies in the (lack of) ability of Malaysians, trained by MFA with the lowest standards, no procedures and absolutely no knowledge.

DCA is thirdworld
MOT is thirdworld
And Gp. Capt. (R) K. is definitely as useless as a third nipple (if you use the other two)

No offense intended, just an objective look at some facts.

"Its better to leave than to be left behind"

[Wizofoz]

Speedtwoten,

The impediments to a Pilot of Asian origin flying in the EU are the same as for anyone-

1) Gaining a JAR License

2) Having right-of-abode in the EU.

These are just as limiting for an American or Australian as for a Malasian, Philipino or whomever. If you can overcome these i assure you you will be judged on your merits.

Regards

[MAStake]

Ex-MAS pilots have moved to various corners of the world and have been accepted. Almost all that I have spoken to are very happy with the pay, terms and conditions, perks and respect accorded to them by the various airlines that have taken them in.

As of now they work in CAL, EVA, KAL, ASIANA, SQ, CX, QF, EK, EY, QR, AVN, AA, LANKA, JAL, etc.

Is there something inherently wrong in MAS that national pilots prefer to uproot and leave the National Carrier to re-locate?

There can't be many Asian airlines that see an exodus of local pilots to the extent that foreign pilots have to be employed.

[flightleader]

They even have a forum on Yahoo so they can keep in touch and informed. See the unity?

[speedtwoten]

:confused: wizofoz it is the same for you all in Asia, but the question is "Are there any chance" I hope you and Robert Palmer are flying and living in EU, so tell me how many expat asian are there, and are any company in EU will giving support to obtain all document required for us from Asia, or they just thinking we are from the world of lack of ability like Robert Palmer said :oh: and please look SQ and other big Asian carrier, we able working together with EU driver means we all have the chance here no worry lah

[speedtwoten]

:) good bye Tanah Melayu and welcome Indon driver's:cool:

[kwaiyai]

Speedwoten,
Problem is that certainly my EU country of residence has too many pilots and not enough jobs, Plus Too many cheap charlie's want you too pay for a typerating to get in. Before coming here I wass offered a job flying an F27 after paying way more than you should for the rating plus only guaranteed the job after line training:mad:
I was offered a position here knowing I didnt have to pay anything like plus knowing I wasnt taking a job from a local, This outfit still short.
Funnily enough I was plus some mates of mine turned down for a kiwi with 300 hours we all had 1000 plus then cos he had mates in that Airline back home.
If I can help any one with advice give us a pm,
Regards,:cool:

[speedtwoten]

:) kwaiyai your post are fair enough to understand, sure I will PM you some day from EU I like the winter season:cool:

[Wizofoz]

any company in EU will giving support to obtain all document required for us from Asia,

Speedtwoten,

No none. But the point is they don't do this for ANYONE. I'm Australian and had to obtain all the necessary documentation by myself before I could even apply to an EU airline.

One difference is that most Asian countries have a policy of employing locals wherever possible. This is NOT the case in the EU or indeed most western countries (indeed it is illegal in most). If you have the right to live there and the necessary
qualifications, you will be judged the same as anyone else.

a kiwi with 300 hours we all had 1000 plus then cos he had mates in that Airline back home.

I don't doubt it. Nepotism rules everywhere. But are you suggesting friends in the right places doesn't help people trying to get into Asian airlines?

[Deske1]

I would like to see which malaysian want to pay 40% of tax in Europe?

And just to remind you ALL,there are restrictions for YEARS in the EU even against the citizens of newly joined countries to get a work permit in western Europe.
So,even me a citizen of the European Union with JAA ATPL and rating cant have any kind of job in UK,Scandinavia,France ,Germany,Italy,the Benelux states,Austria.

What does the malaysians expect then?

:\

[Kaptin M]

which malaysian want to pay 40% of tax in Europe? The salary left AFTER paying the 40% tax is probably close to double their Malaysian salary - but then of course, the cost of living will take care of much of the surplus.

Nonetheless, airfares sold by European and Malaysian airlines are fairly much the same price - so why aren't pilots' salaries?!

[speedtwoten]

wizofoz,

:) basically we all human have the right to stay and live where we wanted, :{ but the country where we like to stay have rule to protect their locals that's why some rule are like's chicken and egg, they ask you to have work permit to get a job or if you found the the job they ask you to have stay permit, then so on in order to have stay permit you must have a job, you know the old classic song of refussing foreigner:\ but if the country really want you the will support you to have all the necessary document with no other reason and this support I call it a chance and that kind you only found in Asian country.

Deske1

what we expect or we as Asian expect is please you answer Joe_bar I think you the one can do that EU people to EU people:ok:

[BlueEagle]

I think Joe_Bar has already had his answer Speedwoten, don't you?

If you arrive in Europe with the right of abode and are suitably qualified for the job in question you chances are equal and the law will protect you if you think you have been discriminated against. At the moment Europe doesn't need to offer any incentive to encourage anyone, European or Asian, to come and fill their job market as there is already a whole lot of qualified talent available.

Singapore Airlines, amongst others, due to rapid expansion and a lack of suitably experienced local talent, have offered jobs, (but not careers), to expats on expat contract terms and conditions to fill the experience gap, nothing else. The fact that they offer conversion to suitably experienced people simply goes to reinforce the fact that they don't, at the moment, have a sufficient continuous supple of suitably experienced local pilots.

Suggesting that Asia is more generous towards Europeans than Europe is towards Asians is totally disingenuous, if and when the pendulum swings to the opposite side the situation will be reversed. Let us all avoid making comments that have a sniff of racism about them please.

[Brianigham]

Palmer:


I think the answer to that lies in the (lack of) ability of Malaysians, trained by MFA with the lowest standards, no procedures and absolutely no knowledge.

Come on now. That statement, though I note you claim, was not meant to offend, IS VERY OFFENSIVE. You just grouped all Malaysians (pilots) in one large ditch and threw a whole pile of crap down our way. Now I have worked with many expats who used to look down on us not so "English" locals. That stance left them sooner than later. Many Malaysian (Especially MAS cadets) pilots are a breed of high achievers, not just in the brains department. We were taken in just after our SPM( thats what most others would call O'levels). Most were sent to AST, several schools in Oz and some to Melaka ( MFA).

Then we got into one of the best training outfits in the world (MAS). Oh yes they dont have the flash cars to pick U up or the nicely decored buildings, but if you are any authority in the international aviation industry , you would know that. Then nearly immediately we are exposed to the big jets and the whole world. The pilots in MAS , trained BY MAS are amongst the best in the world. You got a comment about MFA, please direct it to that institution not all Malaysians. And mind you, the standards of cadets who were trained in MFA nearly always were better than the others.

Joe, Getting a job in Malaysia Or Asia is just as easy as getting one anywhere when you meet the requirements of your prospective employer. All the best.:ok:

[cumulusse]

to work for Air france you have to speak french not normal conversation but like a french guy would do..
that means you have to grow up in the country whatever your origins....same case for Germany or Spain.

that's a fine way to protect locals!!:ok:

[kwaiyai]

Lucky I'm learning Bahassa Lah,
:8

[Robert Palmer]

Brianigham:

I'm sorry I got it wrong. Now that you have refreshed my memory I clearly remember how the worldwide aviation community has nothing but praises for malaysian pilots, especially the insurance companies.

Buddyboy, I have worked in your country and seen (lack of) standards nobody in the civilized world would even believe.

"trained by MAS are amongst the best in the world"

Haha.... good one, thats not what the TRI's and TRE's say, in fact it's the opposite.

DCA and MOT do their best to keep the standards at the lowest possible level. Well aided by the indian expats at MFA.

EU countries would happily employ any pilot with work permit and a sufficient level of skills, you have neither! Why do you think expats are employed in your country?? Because the government prefers expats over bumi's???

[kwaiyai]

Hmmmm,
I think more likely Malaysia has pilot shortage, One thing is for sure Once there is enough local pilot's Me personally think's less expats. Its seems a repetitive cycle. But thats my point of view only.
mai soon Khup.:ok:

[cav-not-ok]

well.. you should know, shouldn't you... mr palmer..

[Brianigham]

:confused:

Robert Palmer,

What are you so sore about. Hey....I am not a bumi too you know. Were you ever in MAS. I cant comment much about aviation in malaysia outside mas. If you were not in MAS, then dont you think its a little harsh to comment on the pilot standards there. Like I said, most of us were trained in other countries at CPL level.

Then again , everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Doesnt bother me anymore. You believe what you want to. I'll put the word out to the guys back home that they need to buck up. Surely we need to be of international standards.

You have a nice day now.
:ok:

[Deske1]

I hope everybody has seen the result of the vote in France.The european countries dont want to see the citizens of the new joiner countries(Poland,Czech,Hungay,Latvia,Lithuania,Estonia,) working in their country even as plumbers,waiters etc.

So I think it can not be a serious question if malaysian or any other pilots outside of the E.U. would work in west europe.

I am sure,that the only airline where these new EU countries pilots can fly is Ryanair

[BlueEagle]

Think you have confused the issue a bit there Deske1 !
A primary reason for rejecting the proposed EU constitution is that individual countries are frightened of the possibility of losing their sovereignty and handing over complete control to a monolith in Brussels that is every bit as corrupt and useless as the UN.

As a pilot, once you have an EU passport and an EU acceptable licence you can apply for a job anywhere within the EU. Just a couple of problems though, most countries like France, Germany, Spain, England etc. etc. will expect you to be able to converse in their language as the Air Law exam, for example, will be written in the national language, as will all the other exams you may be required to sit to initially validate and subsequently upgrade your licence, not to mention that most of their administrative correspondence that you will have to deal with will also be in the national language.

From the employers point of view they want you to be able to slot right in with a minimum of fuss and integrate fully with your colleagues, if you can do that and you have relevant experience you then have to show at the interview that you are the best choice.

[Deske1]

Dear blue Bird,

I have to say that your statement is FALSE.As a citizen from one of the new joiners I can feel that I really know what I am talking about.

Fact:
1. I have an EU passport.
2. I have a JAA ATPL with 747-400,737-EFIS and 737-NG rating with the required experience for F/O.


So far the following airlines rejected my application from west europe even without hold it on file:EasyJet,Cargolux,Global Supply System,Virgin,Air Europe,Futura,Air Berlin,Hapag Lloyd,BMI baby,Corsair,Jet2,Martinair,Transavia,Helios,Sterling,
Fluent in the local language?As I know at Cargolux there are a large group of Austrians.

Some of them declared that there are RESTRICTIONS against me to work in the EU and another one suggested me a Training School to get 737 rating.(Thanks,a second one..ha..ha)So,never got an interview.
As a second class citizen in the EU believe me,I have never applied for a vacancy where the requirements were higher than my qualification.

The industries of the western are overproducing and they need market,but on the other side they wont give any jobs for eastern people.What kind of EU is this?
What you say is the official version.The truth is that every western people fears that the cheaper labour force will move to their country.Thats the reason that everybody say NO when hear the word ;European Union.I guess when the Belgian will say NO as well!On the other side,it is natural that multi companies are coming to these countries and destroys the local industry.It is valid for the airlines as well.I see how our agricultural industry dies,but it is forbidden for my government to support it,only the french government can do it it France,and I eat the french goose liver at home,not ours and my people lose their jobs,however they cant work in another country.I am in the same situation,in the name of the free market,why my airline laid me off,and my home country is full of Easy,Air Berlin,Jet2 so on.But they will never employ me(US) even as F/O with my 2000 hrs RHS 737 experience.The only company considers me(US) is Ryanair,but it is something like the French Legion,they even dont care about your name,only need a valid licence.Why do you think I am in Asia?Why?Because as a citizen of the EU,there are restrictions against me.
This EU is not the same like it was 10 -15 years ago.Now it serves other interests,we are even forced to forget our christian roots.
Without the open eastern markets what would be the unemployment rate in the west?10-14 %?
What would you say to the unemployed voters in the west?

Its easy to tell us from the other side of the new iron curtain,that life is so good to us.

[topoftheloop]

com' on guys, relax. you all should know it's simply a matter of
demand and supply. a few years back i was working for a german
company and they employed pilots from all over the world,
americans, australiens, europe and non-europe. some, even
after years, didn't know any german at all.
being an expat means you have to look where they can need
you, either cause of expansion, bad management or whatsoever.
if there is no demand in your desired country - bad luck, try another nice place ! but one thing is for sure, if you manage to get a job in (old) europe you have all the social benefits (and taxes) as well. in most other places they will kick you out immediately as soon as they don't need you anymore.

[sky330]

Hi Deske,

As I know at Cargolux there are a large group of Austrians.
And langage spoken in Luxembourg is ??

Now, it is true that is difficult for an eastern europe pilot to find a job in werstern compagnies, but I have a scoop for you, it is not easier for westerners.

For most compagnies in France, Germany,.. having the correct nationality helps a lot.
Sure, knowledge of local langage helps as well but nothing beats being a local.

Some friends (native french speakers, JAA licence, EU passport) tried to find jobs in France. DGAC requires that your have its approval before execercising the privilege of your licence in France, and ... it takes months to received it. In the mean times, the compagnies had hired french guys with less experience but available immediately because they don't need it...

Germany request documents in german or the "radiation certificate", that nearly nobody had until recently except the german compagnies, etc , etc

That's not the way, JAA licencing and/or EU is supposed to work, but....

It changed only when a company doesn't find the guys it need. Then, the approval can be obtain in one afternoon, the certificate is not a requirement anymore, and langage knowledge is for cabin crew not for pilots....

[Robert Palmer]

Deske1

Thats a long list of companies you applied for. Seems weird.

Let me ask you this, who paid for your rating and experience??

Maybe the answer to your unsuccesful applications can be found there.

[Deske1]

I see the question.

Ok,step by step:

1. 14 years ago my glider licence was paid by my parents.

2. My PPL and towing by the aeroclub where I towed the gliders.

3.2 years of agricultural spray in my home country,ratings made by the company I have worked.

3.IFR paid by me

4.Instructor rating and multi-engine paid by the flight school where I have worked for another 2 years.

5. Turbo-prop/multi-crew by the DHL(2.5 years)

6. B737-EFIS/NG F/O rating by my national flag-carrier(3.5 years)

7. B747-400 F/O rating by my current employer in Asia.

Maybe not as good as to go and buy these things at a so called TRTO on a shortened course,although I got my 737 Transition Course at Lufthansa,Berlin.

But nobody sponsored my passport and my birth of origin,to be a non-second class citizen of the EU,to get even an interview anywhere on the other side of the continent,where it would endanger the income of the TRTOs.
Just see Cargolux;PAY the rating for us,and after that your job is guaranteed for a year.

I have great expectations,when Easyjet will open its base in my home country.I guess,who will fly those aircrafts?Those westerners who paid their ratings-(in other words:put their money into the system to have a job).Welcome to EU,the land of the equal opportunities!Thanks.

[speedtwoten]

:cool: I agree with deske 1, so you see if come as Asian race to EU even with type rated no chance lah:{ asian is the big chance for all EU people,i know that I've been study in one of EU country

[sky330]

speedtwoten,
I would like to temperate that.
EU compagnies will not make a difference based on race. It is a fact that they will take a local above anybody else. To be fair, whitch company won't ??

No you must have the right to live and work in EU, or you would not even be considered.
Try to find a job in the States without 'green card' and see if that's easy....

If you have the papers (and you have to make all that by yourself), you will be considered like any other europeean non-local.

Asia readily accept EU pilots because they don't find on the local market the pilots with the required level of experience. My bet is the day asian airlines find them, the door will close for expats.

On the same token, I am sure that if EU compagnies do not find the guys they need, all these 'restrictions'will be lifted like by magic.

[Deske1]

So,finally to answer the original question;as the EU discriminates even the citizens of full EU member countries,i see no chance for malaysians in the EU even with JAA ATPL and right to live.

[zob]

sorry for the late reply, i just joined in... but Robert Palmer, i love u man!!!! i totally agree with the nice little things coming out of your keyboard...