Singapore Airlines: The people behind it.

[Robbie_collins]

Hi guys,

I took a bit of time to consider this post. While I aim to make it objective, I am also certainly in a position to generate as much truth as possible.

There has been much talk about Singapore Airlines in this forum, much of it not exactly pleasing. I do wonder if the Singapore Airlines (SIA) management is indeed made up of old fashioned suits who subscribe to the Old School mentality when recruiting, compensating and maintaining staff.

The number of posts here talking about the requirements of a Cadet Pilot interview is a case in point. The impression I get of SIA, based on the feedback by candidates, is one of a Company that knows it has monopolistic control of candidates. Afterall, Singaporeans who wish to take up flying has to go through them, thus the luxury of pick and choose, pscyhological bully during an interview and the regimental tactics cadets are subjected to during training.

Also, I understand that SIA Pilots are not paid very well, relative to their counterparts in other airlines. Why this is so, beats me. SIA is afterall the epitome of a money making Corporation that is practically a cash cow for many years. As a company, it has won many admirers and accolades for its achievements. So one does wonder if this is at the expense of a poorly paid workforce.

Finally, with LCC flooding into the asian region, its probably wise for SIA to reassess its position and adopt a more friendly work environment. Also, I will keenly look forward to the future when other airlines will open up their Cadet Pilot recruitment to citizens of other countries who are interested in a lifelong commitment to the airlines. Emirates, Thai, Cathay.. are u listening? :) It will be justice served then to see where truely all aspiring pilots will flock to when given a choice. My bet is a very empty intray for SQ HR dept.

What say you?

[linksys]

" HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY"


Personally, SQ is a place for mercenaries.
Not a place to get "rupees".

SQ is a place to get 'free' 777 + 747 ratings'
If you screw a few 'SPG's" then you'll get a A345 ratings too.

While you're getting all the international exposure and
wide-body hours,
you can shoppe around for better carriers.

Oh, don't worry about leaving. SQ is used to giving free
ratings and see people leave later.

DOn't worry about the bond.. just crap 'locals' trying
to harrass unlucky foreigners.
A Few have broken it and they got jack from the law.

SO , for those eager to fly 777 / 744 / 345 and
screw lovely SPG's ...?
Welcome to the new world.
:ok:

p.s: SQ's 777 have frequent fuel leakes from the engines.
so read up on QRH

[BlueEagle]

A word of caution to those reading Linksys's post that don't know much about SIA.

There are no free ratings! You will sign a bond and if you skip your bond you will be chased where ever you go and taken to court. A bond is a contract, if you sign it you are expected to have both read and understood it or had it explained to you.

Fuel leaks on the B777? Would an engineer who knows care to comment? Certainly haven't heard from my colleagues there that this is a major problem.

[faheel]

Frequent Fuel leaks? Rubbish!
I have flown the a/c for 4 years with SIA and never ever encountered one, or even heard of one for that matter.:confused:

[Robbie_collins]

Looking at the lack of reply, I can summarise that there may be a fear by employees of SQ to express themselves against their employers.

Is this because SQ management has personnels who participate in this forum as well? I suppose i can understand then ...

[Warhawk]

Right on the money! IMHO the image of a modern democracy is just smoke and mirrors. (keeps the investors US and UN happy!)

:oh:

[Robbie_collins]

An Airlines Pilot is an overly-glamorised job in Singapore. I wonder what will be the fate of tech crews in the future. Will they be a high class taxi driver in the same way that cabin crew are high class waiters/waitresses?

How long more will these Pilots swagger around within their pseudo-elite community. I share my concerns that the aviation bubble is about to burst within the next 10 years and highly specialised positions such as a tech crew may be vulnerable to further pay cuts and retrenchments.

[CDRW]

Robie dear boy - what caused that tirade. "An Airlines Pilot is an overly-glamorised job in Singapore" Is that just in Sin or would you put in that group BA, CX, EK, QF to name just a few??

[Omark44]

"How long more will these Pilots swagger around within their pseudo-elite community"

What utter crap! (But I do suspect a wind-up here!).;)

[linksys]

With Comments like "robbie"

One can only guess that 'it' is the
"wolf" amongst the sheeps.

COnstantly, pro-management..

shame on u

:cool:

[Robbie_collins]

Hi guys,

Sorry if i sounded pro-management. I am not, i assure you that. I am however concerned on several issues that I already discussed.

I am not sure if flying is over-glamorised in other countries. But I can be sure that it is in Singapore. Its just a mismatch in terms of the job expectations as imagined by the general public and how it contrasts with the real work that Pilots today really do.

Pilots can continue to behave as rich men that they are, but for how long? I hope that my post will serve as a gentle wake up call and allow Pilots to really see with absolute clarity what their future in this career will be like. Do we agree that a Pilots job is highly specialised and if there is indeed retrenchment, sure .. you can always say " I'll look for work in other airlines".. but what if your replacement is technology? Take a look around us, there are no bus conductors anymore, there are no flight engineers anymore, there are no Parking attendants anymore.. Why, because they went on to work for another Company...? or are their job totally replaced by technological advancement.

It doesn't help as well that the economic forces are working against big airlines, SIA being deep inside the problem. Where once you can put a premium on Good in-flight service, it has sadly become an overused benchmark. Many other airlines have surpassed it too. And whats a premium yesterday has already become a given today. So what is left to differentiate SIA from other LCCs? The pay package of their Pilots is better, thus come fly with SIA?

Lastly, a visit to SIA recently confirmed what i fear most, there is an old feel to the workings of the management there, still sticking to old ideas, not wanting to embrace a paradigm shift in terms of work strategies.

I hope that the above somewhat clarifies my objective for writing. Thanks and G'day!

[Omark44]

SIA a LCC?............Erm, I don't think so!

Now I am more convinced than ever that Mr Collins is just a troll, enjoying a wind up!

Go and buy a ticket on SIA and then tell us they are a LCC!
The whole SIA machine is very efficient and turns out a quality product, admired world wide. What SIA doesn't do is look after its staff.

[Robbie_collins]

I certainly did not say SIA is a LCC. Maybe its my poor English or other people's inability to comprehend my post thats the stumbling block. I apologise nonetheless, cause I know that some others may have too big an ego to admit that they misinterpreted.

What i was mentioning was the impact LCCs have on the aviation industry. Yes, who doesn't know that SIA is a beautiful airlines who can fit pretty ladies into corsets disguised as kebayas.. but the consumers are not stupid. If there are cheaper alternatives, to hell with your good service blah blah, i'm gonna just pay less and still get from point A to point B.

Perhaps the analogy of the taxi driver is accurate after all. Sooner than we expected, consumers won't care nuts what color are the aeroplanes they will be flying in, so long as they can hail one, get from point A to point B, they will be happy. But wait! if there is one stubborn arrogant airlines with drivers who think they are Limo specialists.. consumers will skip that one. There's a line of other taxis waiting at the back anyway

[Omark44]

" So what is left to differentiate SIA from other LCCs? The pay package of their Pilots is better, thus come fly with SIA?"

Not much room for misinterpretation or an ego problem there Mr Collins, is there?

It is your use of the word 'other' that, according to your written post, ties SIA to the LCCs and not just compares it to them.

Your theory only holds water for short haul routes and EY pax on longer haul routes. There will always be pax that want the J and F class service as well as long haul EY pax who want the better service and leg room and are prepared to pay for it.

LCCs are not new, (well, to Singapore, maybe), they have been around a long time and carriers offering a full service have learned to live with them and thrive. If SIA ever feel seriously threatened they have enough cash to make the kind of share market offer that the LCC share holders will not be able to refuse. The dire warnings from LKY are just to frighten the employees of SIA into accepting continuing reductions in their Ts & Cs and as an SIA shareholder LKY, like the other SIA shareholders, (who, incidently, also hold shares in most if not all the LCCs!), don't want to see the amount of rice in their grossly over filled bowls diminish by even a small spoonful, its called 'greed'!

[Life as a journey]

"Stubborn and arrogant pilots" with "ego's too big to admit misinterpretation"?

What happened? Did you fail your pilot training?

[Foreign Worker]

Robbie_collins (he or she) has a problem with the PILOTS and has a chip on his/her shoulder.
Go to Agony Aunt Forum (http://pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=48) and get it all of your chest there rather than wasting our time here with your childish prattle.

[Kaptin M]

Take a look around us, there are no bus conductors anymore, there are no flight engineers anymore, there are no Parking attendants anymore.. You're quite correct, Robbie_collins, check-in at airlines is now also becoming automated, with check-in staff being replaced by atm-like machines that allocate seats.
But the DRIVERS on the trains, trams, and busses are still there - as are Air Force pilots.
Long before we see pilots jobs being replaced by technology, we can expect to see the trains' and underground (MRT) drivers replaced, then the aircraft loaders, and the drivers of aircraft pushback tugs.

Briefing staff at flight planning have now been replaced by computers where I work, leaving scores of people unemployed.
Menial, routine office work is going to be hard hit over the next decade or so, I feel.
How about your job, Robbie? How secure do you really feel?

What a marvellous world it's going to be - all of these driverless vehicles!!
Only problem is, no-one's going to have an income to be able to afford to ride on them! :uhoh:
Except probably PILOTS (yes, SIA ones at that!).

[Robbie_collins]

Hi guys,

Thanks Omar for your comments. I apologise for my comments on the ego part. I see a valid point when you mention that SIA still have a pie to feed from, the long haul etc. I won't comment on anything with regard to the greed part though.

Guys Btw, I am not a Pilot by profession. I am not a former trainee either. I do however participate in discussions as a critical observer and one who has been fascinated by the Aviation industry since young. Unfortunate that my direct opinions are deemed to be childish or laced with angst at Pilots,

I just wonder...If you can't stomach other people's opinions, why are some people still here? And for goodness sake, shall we allow the general public to decide who is childish here..? This is a forum, not a soccer game. Those who only know how to reply only with sharp boo boo comments are rather childish themselves don't u think? Come forward with arguements and substantial points and you will see that your stay here will be more fruitful.

Kaptin M, thanks for your opinions. Its very logically presented. To put matters in perspective, no job is safe. I believe thats the idea you are putting across too. However, when you describe Menial, routine office work, I do wonder if the nature of flying an aircraft today is slowly moving in that direction too. In my opinion, the only thing that is stopping a commercial aircraft from being fully automated and "Pilot"less is passenger's perception of safety. Once the paying public can rationalise safety in an automated aircraft, we can probably remove another position in the flight deck for sure. From there, its just a matter of time before Pilots may one day control flights from the sanctuary of towers, much like ATC. Fantasy? closer to reality i feel.

As to my job, personally, do you really want to ask? but if you need an answer... yes, i am dispensable like everyone else, but if that is to happen, realistically that must be the day when you guys are already forming long lines at the employment office first ;)

Cheers and G'day!

[guybrush]

Actually some US Air Force aircraft are pilotless...could that be a sign;)? But seriously, pilotless aircraft will not be a problem for another 30-40 years (A380 and 787 need pilots).

Another thing is, the problems you discuss here are the same problems faced industrywide, you might even be the lucky ones! Pop up at the Middle East forum and see how things are down there, just as bad as yours or even worse. Even though the US industry is recovering, it remains crippled and many are not happy with their wages.

Are there pilot unions in Singapore? What powers do they have?

Cheers:ok:
guybrush

[Farside]

Just some quick thoughts on the “pilotless” aircraft.
Yes the air force flies and will continue to fly more and more “pilotless” aircraft. However there is one little difference with the commercial flights. The air force “pilotless” planes are also “passengerless”. The air force uses these airplanes as remote controlled weapon delivery or recognizing platforms.
An other small problem with flying is the third dimension ( height in simple words) As where with any other form of transport you can stop the vehicle and sort out your problems, with an airborne transport vehicle this is quite difficult. The moment you stop in midair your problems become real serious. I think we are still a good few years away from a situation where passengers comfortably get into a remote controlled airplane, with the “remote” possibility where, if something serious goes wrong, the controller says: “ tried A , tried B, sorry didn’t work. We have to write off this one, and by the way my shift is up I am going home” Passengers realy like the invested interest that we pilots share to all get safe to the end of the trip.

[guybrush]

How true Farside.

[Ice Age]

Once an admirer of SQ and its pilots but after talks with friends who has join there and comparing pay that admiration is fading fast. Pilots all around the world should not be afraid of the big airlines its the LCC that will make us bus drivers than one day disappear. I know I'm in one. Pilots should come together once again and talk with one voice and bring that admiration from billions of people back.

The businessmen which see and learn our weakness are the once you should be very worrid about! Trust me I know. Pilots made one rich very fast and it ain't getting better guys!!!!!!


:{

[Robbie_collins]

At present, A Pilot's profession still commands the respect of the general society. People will acknowledge you as a Professional and one who earns big bucks.

However, this could be due to information asymmetry that existed in view that not many people have experienced what Pilots exactly do in the cockpit. There are still many people who believe that Pilots fly their aircrafts manually from point A to point B. Before 911, there were opportunities to visit the cockpit. Some returned unimpressed after realizing that "they don't do much work, just sit and monitor the dials".

I know there are many in these forums that are passionate about flying. It's assuring to know that the person who is taking you to your next destination is an enthusiast rather than someone who rather be somewhere else. The passion for flying is admirable, but irrelevant in the context of a competitive industry that has no mercy on loyalty and faith. The defiant cries we hear here signal, how, many Pilots will want to continue believing that their job is a premium position which in no way fit into the "menial, routine" mould. I see their point, but if only they take a few steps back and see with unbiased eyes, they may have a different opinion then.

The challenge and the real threat facing the Pilot profession is the increase in transparency and sharing of information among the general public. This has lead to a complete demystifying of the profession. Once the dust settles down, what's left, I ask...?

The truth. And the truth hurts. Just like how it has hurt a few people who booed me when I voiced my earlier opinions. It must a sore ego protesting.

[guybrush]

Robbie_collins,
You do have a very good point there. However, I personally think that people will still regard the job with glory. Pilots still travel and get to spend a couple of days in another country on the other side of the world. Many, but not all, stay in four-star hotels, which to many is a luxury they can't afford. The vast majority of people work in the same city they live in even professionals, but not pilots. And even though pilots’ salaries are dwindling, it is still far better than others. Here in Britain the average salary of a retiring pilot is twice that of a retiring engineer according to a careers website.

In addition, it is true that the role of pilots today is to monitor than fly, but that is the same as saying that the chairman/CEO does nothing but sign papers and attend business dinners. Both comments are true but they don't portray the complete picture do they?

Anyway, we really should all regard others with respect whether they fly planes, manage a multibillion-dollar corporation or clean the toilets we use.

cheer:ok:
guybrush

[Farside]

Mr Collins might have a point about the fact that our jobs are more transparent these days, and this transparency makes today’s pilot look like a system operator who’s got very little to do due to the increasing level of automation. That is the impression. However, today’s pilot flying a large passenger airplane is actually a manager of a fast moving liability.
It is perhaps only once in a career of an airline pilot that he or she has to make the split second decision that can be the difference between an incident report with a few phone calls to the office, or the loss of life and a multi billion dollar insurance payout.
And these “timely” decisions are made by one person only without the luxury of sitting back and thinking it over together with a board of advisors and secretaries.
In this harsh money world with these enormous insurance liabilities this responsibility is perhaps one of the reasons why the pilots salary is still considered to be higher.
The reality is that we want the pilots to be bored with very little to do, and use their vast flying experience avoiding situations that require the use of it (not original).

[herman111]

Hello Mr.Robie,
Sorry to say this, but in my my opinion, to just sit and monitor the dials rather than flying a plane from point A to point B is actually something rather impressive, not to all but to certain individulas like me.well its merely because of the technolgy behind it.Someone who doesnt understand might think that the pilots are just sitting there not doing much work..I personally feel that the level of professionalism among pilots increases together with the technology.Yes, i do agree with you that technology mainly automation reduces the need of extra man power...but it does not seem to really apply for pilots...

"when road vehicles become driverless, then pilots can start their worrying about pilotless aircrafts"

[Omark44]

Well guybrush I would have to disagree with you, I don't think Robbie_Collins has made any point at all, in any of his posts.

Robbie_Collins is hell bent on trying to belittle the profession of pilot as much as he can but is working from a knowledge base of zero, as he so amply demonstrates each time he posts to this thread.

Robbie_Collins states:
"The challenge and the real threat facing the Pilot profession is the increase in transparency and sharing of information among the general public. This has lead to a complete demystifying of the profession. Once the dust settles down, what's left, I ask...?"

A more profoundly stupid statement it would be hard to find, even assuming it contained a grain of truth.

I still think that Mr Collins is a Troll, determined to wind us up but as he repeats word for word some of Mr Lee Kuan Yew's mutterings one has to ask oneself if he isn't employed by the R of S?

If you are going to persist in pouring forth your dissertations here, on a professional Pilots bulletin board, Mr Collins, perhaps you would be kind enough to extend to us the common courtesy of researching your subject first ?

[Robbie_collins]

Well Omark44, if you have a chip on your shoulder with LKY name on it, why associate him with me? Since you are so hell bent yourself on asserting your point, then push the envelope a lil bit more will you, by just assuming further that i am him. It comes nothing less to me than a compliment.

Omark44 can call me names, can label my comments stupid. But don't just catcall, substantiate. I haven't seen a thread of it yet in your posts, have I? And i'm glad that diverse opinions are coming in.. so what are you going to do about it? rally them with a baton? gee, i'd rather you convince them. Surely, i am doing a better job at that than you.

:)

[zekeigo]

Once the dust settles down, what's left, I ask...?"
At least we have great stories to tell after all...
This guy is totally out of the loop, how bad must be always want to be a Pilot, sorry for you Robbin or whatever.
:hmm:

[Robbie_collins]

Perhaps zekeigo,

So,zekeigo , you have taken the responsible step to confirm on behalf of your peers that, under the Uniform and the facade, there's really no grey matter inside to discuss rationally other than making sharp comments. You have done nothing but shame some of the other Pilots who spoke well in this thread. I will not be surprised if you came from SIA.

BTW, those childish comments you make, is that representative of the people in your profession? i seriously hope not, for the glorified great stories u are bragging about may only interest little children.

[guybrush]

Guys clam down! Let's not start a fight here and show some respect shall we?

Anyway, with all due respect Robbie_collins, transparency isn't a problem. All jobs are transparent. And as Herman and Farside out it, there is still a lot of professionalism required (well at least for those who want to live anyway:} :} !).

Someone here stated, "When road vehicles become driverless, then pilots can start their worrying about pilotless aircrafts." In that case: BE AFRAID... BE VERY AFRAID. You see, the other day, I saw a program discussing a project where scientists/engineers are working to replace human drivers with technology. I think it's US army that was doing that, but I am not sure.

Ye I still think it's quite pathetic and inhumane. Many people in developing countries (and to a certain degree in developed ones as well) rely on jobs as drivers to keep bread on the table. And I really wouldn't like to be talking to a computer every time I hale a cab (to me it's the same as talking to a wall!). Anyway, I really don't think the technology is that threatening to our drivers until it is actually proven and considered to be added to cars (taxis).

What was the main topic anyway…I forgot!

Cheers:ok:
guybrush

[Foreign Worker]

They're REALLY scrambling that envious little brain of yours, aren't they Robbie!
Those intelligent, handsome, swaggering, well-heeled, debonair devils of the sky - the SIA pilots!

Well pal, it's a FACT of life that THEY are where THEY are, and YOU aren't. You and they are WORLDS apart.
You can post all the cr@p you want here, but in your lifetime, and theirs', there won't be any monumental changes affecting them (nor you).

Life can be tough for some, so grit your teeth and bear it, Robbie, and leave the work of flying those big, sleek SQ aircraft that pass overhead you to the PROFESSIONALS :ok:

(Go get some treatment Robbie - that envy must be hurting you something bad! :{ )

[Omark44]

Well Mr Collins, how about if YOU try and substantiate even some of the rubbish you have posted here? Me? I've got over eighty years of commercial aviation to back my arguments, forty of those years I have been an intergral part of that aviation system and had dealings with thousands of passengers that don't support your unique views not to mention hundreds of colleagues too.

This is a professional pilots forum, remember? How about if you wandered into a Doctors or Lawyers forum and told them they were over rated and time expired? What reaction would you expect then? What substantiation would you expect to get if they even bothered to rebut your very strange and minority opinions?
Of course, in Singapore doctors, dentists and lawyers are the top three professions from which most of the politicians come too, (surprise, surprise!) so your not going to knock them are you?!

You applaud yourself for convincing people with your totally unsubstantiated arguments yet no one agrees with you, how do you work that out?

At the risk of becoming boring I'll repeat myself, you are a Troll Mr Collins seeking only to stir up trouble. If your motive is mischief then so be it but if you are a R of S 'plant' designed to further reduce the status of SIA pilots then you are despicable.

What a shame that you chose the user name you did too, a highly respected pilot that once flew for SIA.

[Farside]

This thread is getting a little overheated. Why don't we stop the rambling and mudslinging and why don't we try to get some opinions going. I thought that the idea of pilotless passengers airplanes is still light years away, but again that is my opinion. Some people on this thread have other opinions and have the right to have these other opinions, so let's start a civil arguement with the pro's and con's of these future robot cockpits. It won't affect me but could affect my son or grandson's flying asperations so wouldn't it be nice if we had some diverse arguments here to make it possible to form a balanced opinion.

[Kaptin M]

my son or grandson's :eek: :eek: :eek: flying asperations Congratulations Grandpa - when did THAT happen???

[Flying Ninja]

Hey Kap,
Let me remind you about what you and your "like minded " friends have said in the past:

Something about " control" and " not their sons or even the sons of their sons"
D--k head

[Farside]

WHooooow Whoooow not so fast, I meant my possible future grandson or daughter, but as far as I know that is still premature!!!(even before premature I hope) . One son and daughter is enough for the time being!!

[Omark44]

Well I do apologise but I didn't realise this thread was about pilotless aircraft and having re-read the initial post I have to say I still don't see it.

As I don't think a commericial pilotless aircraft is even a faint possibility I'll butt out now and leave you guys to it.

[herman111]

Hi all,
Think the thread was about SIA and the people behind it which then took a sharp turn towords pilots job perspective and to a heading of pilotless aircrafts....

"As I don't think a commercial pilotless aircraft is even a faint possibility"

I agree to the statement above . (when the word COMMERCIAL is in ...)

Millitary might have something to do with the pilotsless a/c and correct me if i am wrong...i have only heard about remote controlled a/c as in there are some level of participation from a human being controlling the aircraft ....hmm :ooh:

"Pilots who loose jobs to a pilotless a/c can apply to control the aircraft from the ground...well might be something good from all this after all...:ok:



//%$ To be useful, a system has to be able to do more than just correctly perform some task.- John McDermott//%$ ;) ;) ;)

[Robbie_collins]

I've got over eighty years of commercial aviation to back my arguments, forty of those years I have been an intergral part of that aviation system and had dealings with thousands of passengers
Well, Omark44, thats really admirable. But a pity that all those years of experience, and what have you to contribute to this forum? a paranoid belief that an overly elaborate high level conspiracy is in place here by the Republic of Singapore. My goodness, I had higher expectations of you.

This is a professional pilots forum, remember?
Really? doesn't look like one to me. Not with the kind of behavior exhibited by some of your colleagues. I am a regular in many online debates and forums. So I do know what is professional and what is not. I can assure you on this.

How about if you wandered into a Doctors or Lawyers forum and told them they were over rated and time expired?
Can't do that for a very simple reason. They are not over rated and time expired. Thats why. But your profession is.

You applaud yourself for convincing people with your totally unsubstantiated arguments yet no one agrees with you, how do you work that out?
Did I? I merely welcomed a diversity of comments. On the other hand, a person like you is probably more comfotable in a forum where younger boys with less experience than you kowtow to u with a chorus of "Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full". So naturally i can understand why you are go gloomy to me who dare to engage you head on.

At the risk of becoming boring I'll repeat myself, you are a Troll Mr Collins seeking only to stir up trouble. If your motive is mischief then so be it but if you are a R of S 'plant' designed to further reduce the status of SIA pilots then you are despicable.
Yes, you are becoming boring. And frankly, if you ever want to know whats my real agenda here, then I can only say that people do want to know the truth of SIA and its pilots. And your boys here are doing a fine job of proving me right so far. Keep em coming.

What a shame that you chose the user name you did too, a highly respected pilot that once flew for SIA.
I don't think we have space for nostalgia and sentimental bits. Perhaps that is your downfall in this debate. Too emotional.

[Foreign Worker]

Yawn.
You are sooooooooo boring, Robbie C, every post of your's is just a repitition of your previous ones - baseless, hollow, shallow envy. Nothing new, nothing intelligent, nothing even half smart.

You're wasting our time and your's, and the ONLY reason I'm making this contribution is in the hope that one of the moderators reads back through it and realises that it's simply an avenue for you to vent your spleen, and serves NO worthwile purpose.
Yawn!

[BlueEagle]

Yes Foreign Worker I'm inclined to agree with you. I too have read and re read this thread quite a few times and the only conclusion I can come to is that Robbie_Collins is very anti the profession of airline pilot and determined to denigrate it.
Both you Robbie_Collins and to a lesser extent Omark44 have also come very close to crossing the line regarding personal abuse and I see no further advantage to letting this thread continue, it will now be locked.

Robbie_Collins if you want to get the full low down on what the world thinks of the pilot profession why don't you restart a thread on the subject? The 'Terms of Endearment' forum could be a possible starting point, but don't be too surprised if it ends up in 'Jetblast'!