Cathay dispute/ Hiring Ban

[abideenw]

Today the hiring ban should go into effect. Any reports on talks to resolve the dispute? Any comments from AOA members or new hires being affected by this? How are people treating one another?

[Snake Hips]

Attached is an article from today's local English speaking rag. You will note Looney Tunes, running the AOA, still haven't quite woken up to the fact that 'limited industrial action' indeed ANY industrial action at a time when the company is deciding how many aircraft to park, is not a terribly intelligent stance.

Quote
Wednesday, October 10, 2001

Pilots to fight on into new year
Cathay union issues profit warning and labels management 'criminal' for rejecting talks offer


VICTORIA BUTTON

Cathay Pacific pilots yesterday said they were prepared to continue industrial action beyond Christmas, and warned that the airline could lose money this year.
Aircrew Officers' Association general secretary John Findlay said management was "criminal" for refusing a union offer of an unconditional return to formal negotiations on pay and rostering.


He cited one analyst as saying losses caused by the industrial action could so far be as high as $800 million, but the union could help the company's financial state if a settlement was reached.

Cathay's director of corporate development, Tony Tyler, said the industrial action had stopped having any effect on passenger numbers or flight delays.

"It is in fact what you might call virtual industrial action, or phoney industrial action," he said.

But the company was not prepared to negotiate while the industrial action was under way.

Mr Tyler was unable to make any profit or loss forecast, but said passenger levels on trans-Pacific routes had collapsed after the American terrorist attacks last month.

Flights normally 70 to 80 per cent full were now flying at about 50 per cent capacity.

Stockmarket analysts disagreed with the union's prediction that Cathay could suffer a loss this year but expected profits would be down 50 to 60 per cent on last year's record $5 billion.

"It really depends how much traffic falls in the fourth quarter of the year, but the airline has said as recently as two weeks ago that it was still profitable," said one Hong Kong-based aviation analyst with a major European brokerage.

Mr Tyler said the tough economic climate meant pilot demands for more money and time off could not be met.

Mr Findlay said the American attacks had not changed the fact that pilots had "had enough" on issues such as rostering, which he said was at the heart of the dispute.

"I'm afraid to say we will continue our dispute until there is a negotiated settlement," he said.

The union held a media briefing to mark the three months since Cathay sacked 49 pilots on July 9.

Fifty-three pilots have been sacked during the dispute, with one re-instated but demoted.

It also has emerged that two more pilots were demoted recently, but neither the union nor the company would comment on the circumstances as appeals were under way.

Mr Findlay said yesterday that pilots who joined Cathay before any negotiated settlement would be made to feel unwelcome and barred from joining the union or its overseas counterparts - which could harm their career prospects internationally.

The union has written to Cathay requesting that it avoid rostering on about 20 pilots who are due to start work before January. The union says that in the interests of promoting safety and avoiding cockpit conflict, they should not fly with union pilots.

Cathay plans to roster the new pilots on as normal and has denied that the situation is a safety issue.

Unquote

[jungly]

AOA will victimise new joiners as they will be perceived to be aligned with management and management dont give a toss either way, as all pilots are just numbers on the bottom line.

If new joiners do not take the start date they are offered... CX will not offer another course EVER. (yes this is fact!) If you do take the job AOA will make you "feel most unwelcome".

You lose either way - No job or ***** job.

Management seem unwilling to negotiate with the AOA.... so no change to the satis quo is imminent.

AOA think the victimsation, of new joiners, could be so bad that they want them to fly with only non-union crews! Are you serious?

Is dividing the pilot body the managements plan?

The recruitment ban is in place. No-one refutes that and its consequences but punishing new joiners (when their only other option is unemployment) creates more victims.

Their crime is timing. Timing of interviews & timing of their course date. A date CX is unwilling to change.

CX are driving a wedge into the AOA and the AOA, if it comes out fighting, is going to target new joiners. Surely thats not kosher.

Is it 'divide and conquer' or 'smoke screen and mirrors'. Misdirecting the AOA towards targeting new joiners also helps management.

The 49ers cause is just... but surely the AOA has enough ammunition to avoid creating more victims in this ugly dispute.

CX may only make a HK$2billion profit this year. Compared to the rest of the world I'd say management are very happy with that.

This world is ugly enough at the moment...the AOA is nearly begging to get back to negotiations. Is it too much to ask for management to show some goodwill too?

Likewise AOA to new joiners?

Is their that much hatred in the hearts and bile in the guts in HKG?

[johnahk]

With all the lay offs in tha aviation world it's nice to see the fat A scale pilots still try and get more money.I have always disliked unions that was only there for there own self interest, this one proves it.I have friends that our B scale or freighter pilots and the AOA is not interested in getting them a better deal!!. So fire the A scalers and hire a fresh bunch, I think there are a lot of us looking.
To our USA friends our thoughts are still with you over NY.

[Wilfred]

Jungly

Yes there is, and it is hard to believe that 'brother' fliers are using their potential colleagues as pawns in this affair. I doubt if many pilots worldwide would not support the sacked pilots in their plight. I certainly do, and all power to the Cx elbow in busting the union busters. But the AOA is determined to use any tactic to achieve its ends, even if that means denying pilots the opportunity of joining Cathay. Some at Cathay will say that they would not want to join anyway, but that is a decision for the individual.

To expect a pilot to sacrifice his or her career for the furtherance of another's/others is, I think, unreasonable. To then act in sulky silence if rostered to fly with one who had the balls to think for themself, is childish and unprofessional. Surely all your efforts need to directed against those with whom you have the gripe.

[Snake Hips]

Angus
You are misinformed. My A scale chums have taken significant pay cuts in return for stock options (okay under performing right now) and, as far as I am aware, haven't been after more money. They want(ed) stable rostering and respect and cooperation from their management. Not much to ask for? The main union support is from recent joiners (post '93) who have decided life with Cathay sucks. Maybe it was better flying turbo probs around Winnipeg after all?

[amused]

Management are rapidly realising that the only way out is to fire everyone and reissue contracts to those they consider suitable. Roll on, so those who have a gripe get out now before you are fired!

[Traffic]

The A scalers are humanoids not greedy scaremongers. There is no rift between the A and the B scale.

There are differences of emphasis. Among the A scale there are those that have taken basings and are now back in HK. There are those that are in HK and want basings...some again.Indeed a complete demogarphich of homo sapiens.

I think outside observers misunderstand the fact that 100% of the drivers want the company to grow and prosper. Current on-time records show that to be the case.

Where we are now is in a kind of Mexican standoff where both sides still want to show their fangs but do so with good intentions.

If I weren to be picking a fight...I would pick one I could win. Clearly boths sides realise this is not possible but there is face on the line.

At the risk of being called a......le again by BusyB I ride unsheathed into the fray.

Bury the hatchet. Have an open meeting and put all the cards on the table. Everyone in CX wants to make it the best in the biz. It is ..so let it be.

Again...I say that those on the side will not be discarded as long as they agree to let management manage. Ask and be granted due process but for God's sake keep it out of the courts and the press because if all this goes to court or arbitered by CNN, we know who will win...the lawyers. They will probnably insist that OJ becomes DFO.

Let's get with the program...which is to stop the 400's from being parked next to the outhouse and every landing doing a tour of HAECO.

On On

[jungly]

~ don't you think the new joiners also want to be put of a successful airline...and indeed, keen to make that happen.

I respect your positive approach but in the same breath the AOA is picking a fight it can win, with anyone breaking the recruitment ban. (My point is the bully-boy tactics prove nothing - just create more victims)

The AOA website press releases indicate that informal talks look positive for the 49ers. I think the AOA know only too well that they can get the jobs back (and that is brill)....but why won't management come to the negotiating table now?

Perhaps management want some ban breakers in the system....cannon fodder for both sides...but it does show they have the power of recruitment over the AOA.

Too much testosturone (sp?) and muscle-flexing, not enough chit chat?

[Vonkprop]

Don't you find it a little interesting that there are no AOA members posting on this forum, and the only opinions you are reading are those of a very subjective management who are frustrated and self-protective?

I would suggest to all concerned that you are unlikely to get a balanced analysis here.

This is no way to start career research. There are many more unprejudiced forums, libraries, aviation publications etc., that would provide you with a far more impartial view.

A word of advice gents (and ladies)...Snake Hips and other BBS terrorists are NOT the way, the truth or the light.

[Plastique]

Is it not a little ironic that the AOA members are threatening intimidation on the flight deck for those new joiners. Not really in the spirit of the "Maximum Safety Policy" - hardly good CRM.

Furthermore the attitude to AOA members from gound and cabin staff is getting progressively worse. Somehow I think that the AOA pilots will fare out worst - don't forget your sandwiches guys.

The selfish actions of this so called group of "professionals" has weakened the airline, and when the 13th month payment is canned, and the job and pay cuts start, the recriminations will start.

[Snake Hips]

Does any one know exactly what will be parked? Too many different stories.

[411A]

A total of twelve aircraft, but not sure of the types at the moment, this from a very reliable source in CX. Mostly older types, I would think. The story does seem to change daily though....

As for the AOA, dead in the water with NO hope of a successful outcome. Pity these misguided guys cannot see the light. Many bitter days ahead for these malcontents.

[ironbutt57]

Nobody gives a toss about the ban except the tossers themselves that are "imposing" it :rolleyes: :mad: :eek:

[ess jay]

411a
The oldest type aircraft in CX is a 747-400.
Dont think they will be parking those. As usual, your post are full of it!

[411A]

Well ess jay, my source could be incorrect, but on the other hand, UAL is parking 14 747's, all -400's I believe, within 4 months. This was unthinkable just a few months ago. CX may be in the same boat....to much capacity. Freighters may be parked as well as the cargo rates in Asia have gone in the basement. Very different times now, sad to say.

[fire wall]

ess jay, the oldest type is thew 747-200 freighters, perhaps you are full of it.

[BlunderBus]

And.......just who would those 'non-union' pilots be that the new joiners may expect to fly with??????
Union membership is running in the high 90's % which includes A and B scalers.
This dispute was never about salaries and if you have that impression you're misinformed.
It's about being given a roster and not flying a SINGLE rostered trip for months on end. It's about turning up for a rostered short haul and being given a 16 hour sector to toronto with an immediate 'deadhead' back via anchorage.
It's about being called 10 times a day and given a plethora of trips/reserves/last minute "can you be here in 1/2 an hour" ....on your 8 days off per month!
We've all had it before,worked harder,flown **** equipment,had assholes for bosses ...and after 20 years of getting up the ladder one step at a time do we chuck it all away because a couple of accountants don't give a **** that saving $10 on crewing costs you a lifetime invested and a marriage?....i for one think not.
The pilots here used to fly on days off for free,used to happily 'go the extra mile' and had the industry's lowest sick leave.....ALL of the 'goodwill' was entirely destroyed by a short-sighted attack on operating crew numbers,rosters,and remuneration(B-scales).
It didn't work in the USA and it won't last here either.
If you aspire to struggle for half your lifetime and join a carrier worth working for then 'get informed'. Goodluck to the new joiners..it's going to be tough...but then you already knew that.

[Poke Guy]

AOA runs a very poor PR campaign and you've lost the media war to CX from day 1. Good luck!

[411A]

Good luck?
These guys have run out of luck and excuses as well....the only option is for these malcontents to give-in to management, and say "Yes Sir" when spoken to...a sorry lot indeed. In the end, many will leave, and will most likely not be missed. A few will bite the bullet and stay...to be rewarded later? Why should they, when they joined, they asked for work, did they not? And now the only excuse they can give is......my family wants me home.
Tough sh@t.

[jungly]

b/bus

the 49ers cause is just, the rostering is ar$e.....you'll find no detractors here....nor amongst most of the new joiners.

did you know that:

1. some new joiners were interviewed and even signed contracts before the ban,
2. when they attempted to get their cse delayed, CX said "it is not our current policy to offer another course date"...ie: take it or leave it,
3. some new joiners have letters from IFALPA recommending exemptions from the ban,
4. by the letter of the law (not intent, i admit) you must be an ALPA member, to be subject to the ban (admittedly that does not mean AOA have to let you play in their sand box)

the new joiners are not out to buck the system, they are in an equally tight bind....blacklist or umemployment! they have resigned from their previous companies and those jobs are now history.

the AOA must fight for the 49ers first and foremost...that is agreed...but what crime have these new joiners committed (given that some have letters from IFALPA)?

....what would you have done 9 years ago?

Some new joiners may not give a to$$, but I tell you some do. Some, my friend, are willing to pay union fees (5%) to support the 49ers too! (despite the fact the membership opening smites them)....and you speak of GOODWILL?.

I wish I was so confident as to tar all and sundry with the same brush..... but I guess its your train set.

Goodluck to all at CX, the 49ers and new joiners alike..... the battlelines have been drawn seemingly on passion rather than reason.

[Fly747]

Are you lot aware of what is going on in the big world? Have you heard of Bin Liner? The 49 are now irrelevant, there are now literally thousands itching to take your jobs. Read your local rag which included this from Ms Co the airline analyst at Solomon's;

"Cathay can't cut anyone else until they deal with the pilots first. If they cut other staff and left the pilots alone, morale would plummet because other staff would view the situation as being highly unfair," an airline analyst said.

"That's why I think the airline is going to be brutal with its pilots when the axe finally falls."

Get real guys and help your airline survive.

[jobe]

Fly747,You are 100% right.

[Traffic]

Blunderbus proves the point that the goodwill is still there.All that is required is a workable roster. To get a workable roster requires certainty...which only the particpants can provide.

Everyone cares about all the staff in CX that make it work. The product works because everyone pulls together.

I was moved by the comments of the engineer, speaking on behalf of his colleagues.Here here.

Management is not going to throw people in the street like the US carriers if they can possibly avoid it.Look at the track record over the past 40 years not just the past few years.

This is still a family company at heart and blood is still thicker than water.Families that stick together grow together through the good times as well as the bad times.

I concede that 4 sick days in 20 years of service is not likley to ever be the norm again but believe me it used to be...actually when Norm was DFO...as much for personal pride as for love of queen and company.

[411A]

Nonsense.
CX a family Company? May have been in the past, now it is a money making (or losing) commercial enterprise, subject to the pressures of the marketplace.
If the pilots don't like it now, they have an option, simply leave. End of story.

[Poke Guy]

That's called nepotism. :D

[Traffic]

411A

You are wrong...so very wrong.

Sure it is now a publicly listed company subject to all the EBIT proctology that applies to any company. The basic core of both management and staff however still consider it family.

If you are one of us and don't then so be it but a show of hands would tell a different story.

JS&S still call the shots..and they are family.

Look at the queue to get in and you will understand that it is still an employer of choice.

[Traffic]

Then I guess if you think the 400 is the oldest in the fleet you are not with the program....

...and I just got an email from a distant relative, an Ansett C&C on the 737 who says there are 738 of his colleagues (including him), many with a CV which would have got them a LH-seat job anywhere 6 months ago, all knocking on the door.

Mark my words... CX will not discard the current deck if they can avoid it in spite of the well documented troubles. Grown men and women don't throw out the bathwater ...especially those that remember when HK ran out of water and it was shipped in via ship from China.

Swire and Cathay were built with the goodwill of the staff. Noone is more acutley aware of that than the management.

[411A]

Well Traffic, for your argument to ring true, the problems that you are having with CX management would/should have been solved long ago.
IN fact, they are not, and are not likely to be anytime soon. Right you are about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, no matter how much it cries. But to expect any improvement over the short/medium term is to be unrealistic unless....
IF it could be PROVEN (and not just to pilots) that the current CX management is the real problem, then the pilots, as a collective group, have a chance.
Under the present circumstances, this will be a tall order indeed. Your PR is (to say the least) lousy. You need a professional PR guy to help your cause, and he should have been in place a long time ago.

[pontius's pa]

Traffic is absolutely right.

CX used to be a wonderful company to work for and it is a terrible shame that things have gone so wrong. There is no point in allocating blame as there is fault on both sides, but it is a little bit hard to feel much sympathy for the AOA claim at present.

I must say that if I was given a job at CX right now it would be a real pleasure not to have to make polite conversation with, and listen to a boring diatribe from, someone on the flight deck who is so lacking in professionalism that he would take his beef with the company onto the flight deck and take it out on a bloke who had just joined CX to feed his family, just as much the outraged silent AOA super hero was.(I know that "feeding his family" is ridiculously dramatic but it seems to be the sort of theatrical yuckspeak that the AOA favours these days). But of course my opinions will fall on stony ground because AOA members don't read this site any more.

Traffic, you got me on one thing. Who was Norm, or am I being thick again. I remember, (in chronological order), BW, JH, GC and of course dear old KB, but who the hell is Norm. Traffic, are you even older than me??

[Traffic]

Back before BW...his son is a 400 skipper.

[Traffic]

411A

Not necessarily.

It was not much more than a decade ago that CX was smaller than Dragonair is today. The company has gone through some serious growing pains and done it pretty well, all things considered.

The one thing that has happened though is that there has been a disconnect in direct communication between H/O management and the aircrews. Given the number of people now on the payroll this was an inevitable development.In this day and age pilots are no longer the centre of the universe. Indeed, even if David Turnbull had the time, there are more strategically vital assets and issues that require management attention.

This direct communication was replaced by a layer of people acting as the modem and gatekeeper. They were often pilots with ambition and drive but often as not lacking in the communication skills to handle what I would loosely call the pastoral role.Manging up not down.

Throw into this vacuum the need to slow down the gravy train with the A & B scales and you had fertile ground for the AOA to start taking steroids to fill the vacuum.

What we now have is another modem in the form of the AOA that can't communicate with the other modem that is connected to H/O.It is in fact pilots disconnected from pilots...poor CRM if you will...on the ground.

This is a fight essentially between management pilots and their colleagues in the AOA. It is not a fight per se between the management of the airline and the pilots. More like the students of a school believing all the prefects are pillocks.

As to PR and duelling in the press, this is a no-win for everyone. Like trying to negotiate with your wife through a lawyer.

What is needed is less PR not more.

PR can't fix disputes it can only promote a product and a brand.

FWIW

[Kubota]

Traffic...

Fair enough. There has been a massive breakdown in communication between "us" and "them" (you?). What is just beyond my comprehension is that a "face-saving" exercise is whats keeping a resolution away. Fix this. It's easy: RE-EMPLOY the 49. After they're in, wag your finger at them. Tell them they have been bad, bad boys and they're on thin ice. A final warning. Back as "probes". Whatever. Then we can work this out. Only one other thing: Tell Tyler to SHUT UP. More managers than pilots bury their heads in their hands when he speaks!

And yes..."loosely call the pastoral role. Manging up not down" Manging? You mean you're...?

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Kubota ]

[Traffic]

Kubota...Japanese tractor?? Great product..got one myself.

Finger trouble. What I meant to say was that the 'prefects" are managing up instead of down.

It is not an us and them thing really.

PS...The "them?"meaning me? If an answer is really required, I am happy to give one. NO.

[Traffic]

Pontius

I shouldn't have answered your question with another quiz..perhaps I am older.

Before Brian Whiteman...an aussie dressed up as a to and from...the only person to come near stalling a 1011....there was, and my memory fades somewhat...Norm Marsh and before that a few shared tasks..Laurie King (more of an Oliver Cromwell than a King really...and father of Brian). Before that there was Ken Steil...father of Bill.

As the resident historian from Anderson to Yates...can't recall anyone further down the alphabet food chain...feel free to ask me what you will.

As to KB ..me thinks there is and was . In addition to Barley I think F/E Ken Barnes was also DFO...affectionately referred to by all but Joan (ex-Mrs Barnes) as Mr Barnes.

The real point here is that there are still enough guys around...and BlunderBus proves the point...who actually care ...that is how the problem will be solved.

[Traffic]

Oh and to add some sport to this thread...name the F/O in the photo in the CX in-flight magazine standing in front of the 880...the prize is a fixed roster for 30 days.

[Edmund Spencer]

Kubota,

I fear this is the most important issue.

Face.

Has the AOA really addressed this?

ES

[411A]

Traffic, I remember LK when he joined SIA in 1979 after having retired from CX...he sure was NOT liked by the local F/O's...quite a terror in the cockpit, I believe. All this was pre-CRM, of course.

[Sly'n Smiley]

Just for your info, Mr Ken Barnes in a lecturer in aviation management at Swinburne University in Melbourne. And a bloody good one at that.

[HotDog]

Traffic, the F/O is Douggie Bryan. Looking forward to my 30 day roster!

[Traffic]

411A - indeed you are correct. But Mrs LK was good at CRM...classroom resource management at Kowloon Junior School.

Sly'n Smiley - good to hear. KB would indeed be good at that...and many other things.

Hotdog- you get the 30 day fixed roster. Think Douggie went to Alia in Jordan for a while after he left CX off the 1011.A thorough gentleman.

Time for a 'Where are they now?" thread??

BlunderBus- hang in there.

[flyingkiwi]

Guys and gals, I have just seen on the CX website that they are announcing that all the industrial action is over.

Can someone, preferably from the AOA shed some light on this development and wether that means the recruitment ban is off as well.

[Wilfred]

Flyingkiwi, it is confirmed in the SCMP. I will attempt to paste it below!

Cathay Pacific pilots will suspend their industrial action campaign from noon tomorrow and have formally dropped a demand that sacked pilots be reinstated as part of any deal.
The measures fulfil every requirement Cathay listed in an October 12 letter as "steps in the right direction" that would show the sincerity needed for negotiations.

The ceasefire was set out in a letter hand-delivered by Aircrew Officers' Association president Nigel Demery to Cathay director of flight operations Ken Barley on Thursday.

Cathay welcomed the union announcement and has proposed a meeting with it early next week.

The pilots' union has warned it will review the decision to suspend industrial action - which started in July - if Cathay did not respond clearly and positively to its decision.

Union members were informed yesterday in a newsletter obtained by the Post. In it, Mr Demery said the union had "updated" its view on the best course of action after the September 11 terror attacks.

"After two days' extensive discussion in your General Committee, we have decided that we will, as a membership, demonstrate the sincerity and good faith management is seeking. Someone has to be prepared to take the first step towards reconciliation," he said.

The move came after Cathay dismissed the union's previous offer of an unconditional return to negotiations as insincere, given the insistence on the reinstatement of the sacked pilots.

In the letter to Mr Barley, Mr Demery said there were no pre-conditions for negotiations.

Union general secretary John Findlay said the initiative showed great strength of character: "I don't think there's any sign of admitting defeat here."

Cathay's director of corporate development, Tony Tyler, warned the union would need to have realistic expectations in the current environment.

Well bug**r me it worked!

But as you so rightly ask, does that mean an end to the recruitment ban?


:confused:

[flyingkiwi]

I hope it does, as it will now be extremly unfair on those already in the recruitment system to be asked to sacrifice themselves for a cause that no longer exists.

[PeterZee]

Oh c'mon! That BE1900's been good to you!

[flyingkiwi]

Hmmm...B1900...A340....let me think!!

For the record my application and interview was pre ban.

[Poke Guy]

Expect another pay cut.

[ironbutt57]

Looks like from recent goings on that the 49ers join the 89errs in history, and once again the union has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.....who,s next :D :D :rolleyes:

[pontius's pa]

To Traffic et al

Many thanks for yr reply ref "Norm", sorry for belated reply but been away.

Don't remember, Barnesy as temp DFO, but there you go.

Ever so glad its over.