Air Atlanta Cargo incident Sharjah 07/11/04

[ACE Dispatcher]

Just heard that an Air Atlanta Cargo 747 reg TF-ARR has overrun the runway on takeoff at Sharjah UAE.
Aparently during the takeoff it burst 4 tires and aborted but could not stop in time. The airport is currently closed.

[411A]

One wonders if AAI's rather suspect previously reported maintenance practices are now coming home to roost.

[Rocco in Budapest]

That´s 2 serious incidents in less than a week. They´re on a roll.

[ACE Dispatcher]

Just seen the photos as some of my friends were visiting Sharjah at the time it happened. Aircraft will no doubt be written off but the crew escaped without injury.
What caused the 3 or 4 tires to burst on takeoff is a mystery but could well have been debry left on the runway?
The runway will most probably be closed until tommorow while they remove the wreckage.

[Arctaurus]

ACE -

How can you be so sure it will be written off ??

Are there any pics in the public domain yet.

[Clarence Oveur]

Aborting due to burst tires certainly reduces the chances of a happy ending.

If that was in fact what happened.

[ACE Dispatcher]

Arctaurus can't be sure that it will be written off but looking at the damage to the airframe and the fact that it's a 'classic' 742 I would think that it isn't worth repairing.
To give you an idea of the damage it reminds me of the taxing incident with the Saudi 744 where the forward section splits but in the case of the Air Atlanta stress and buckle marks can be seen a long way up the hull aswell when it impacted the sand dunes at the end of the runway.

Saudi 747 incident (http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/194763/M/)

Brgds ACE

[Earl]

Not that it makes much difference but the Saudia aircraft in KUL listed above was a 747/300.
IO tail number.
This Saudia incedent was not crew related as the aircraft was being repositioned by maintenance.
Good to hear that the AAI crew was OK.

[Flybob]

411A Typical, would not expect anything less from you.
total ignorance and blind supposition.
Glad the crew are OK.

[an-124]

anyone got any photos we can see??

[icemanalgeria]

Clarence Oveur
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 7th November 2004 16:04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearance Oveur.

"Aborting due to burst tires certainly reduces the chances of a happy ending.

True but sometimes it's turns out to be the best option available at the time.

Looking back the Air France concorde may have been better off staying on the ground.

[abusedbyaai]

well a 747 is not really close to a concord now is it..
lets hope that this was not due to any dubious reasons........
easy to suspect, let the facts talk first

[ironbutt57]

Well flybob, AAI,s past"misadventures" with maintenance are well documented and reported in rspected aviation journals..can't vouch for the present, but unless there was a major change..411A might be on to something....

[speed freek]

Should be flying over Sharjah airport tomorrow. I'll have a quick peek to see what can be seen.....

[abusedbyaai]

was mentioned previous about 2 incidents, what was the other one?

[an-124]

I think you will find that he is taking about the MAN incident as the 2nd incident for Air Atlanta..

[Awakevortice]

I fully agree with Flybob regarding the valueless input from that vitriolic purveyor of ignorance, 411A, to this or any other PPRuNe thread.
All those in favour of a permanent 411A ban please indicate your wishes by email to the moderators. Perhaps a separate petition thread is in order?

Glad the damage was confined to machinery for the crew involved here.

[catchup]

What's wrong with 411a's posts?

regards

[Woodman]

Anyone know who it was flying for? Whoever it was is likely to take an interest in the inquiry.
Glad the crew were OK.

[A20WE]

In regards to 411A comments on AAI maintenance which are getting some what tiresome …

TF-ARR maintenance facts, last C-check performed by Lufthansa 10 January 04, last A-check performed by Lufthansa 22 October 04, line maintenance on the AAI freighters operating for Lufthansa is performed by Lufthansa which I think we can agree is second to none.

From: http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1811191/

“Qoute”

Username: IL76TD
From United States, joined Jul 2004, 146 posts, RR: 0
Posted Sun Nov 7 2004 15:40:23 UTC+1 and read 3364 times:
Just got back from the plane (I work at the SHJ airport for another cargo airline). I was putting some stuff in one of our planes when i saw the fire trucks at the end of the runway.

Analysis:
Fully loaded Air Atlanta Cargo 747-200 reg. TF-ARR (Ex LH Cargo D-ABZF) overran the runway at SHJ after blowing out both nose tires on takeoff (we felt the shock from them bursting in our office). This was at approximately 0100z.

Pictures of the Plane
http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/search/photo.search?cnsearch=23621/660&distinct_entry=true

Result:
I just drove out to the runway to check it out, plane is approximately 50 feet off of the end of the runway, angled to the left in the dirt. The plane is definitely a total loss, the fuselage buckled slightly at the crest of the upper deck hump when the nose gear broke off in the dirt , and the left wing is broken off and wedged underneath the plane at an odd angle. Both main gear are also collapsed. The airport will be closed for 48 hours for investigation and removal of the plane. It is surrounded by security officers so i can't get any pics, but might try tomorrow, and definitely can once they remove it, which sadly may involve cutting it apart as it has no usable landing gear left. Also, the lower nose section is completely torn apart.

Crew suffered no major injuries (i saw them leave on a bus as i was arriving).

Looks like the 747 cargo leasing market just shrunk a little more. A sad end to a good looking plane.

Ask any other questions about anything i forgot, I'm going home now but will answer when i return.

“Un quote”

[Gareth Blackstock]

Does anyone know of any pictures of the aircraft in question? (apart from the pictures in the link above!) I mean pictures of it as it is now.

Gaz

[cw6]

411a, No doubt you have your reasons for commenting on other airlines maintenance,but what do you base your posts.
Air Atlanta are constantly at Cargo Lux for maintenance, whom i know personally to be providers of first rate engineers and service.Base your post's on fact alone and not your own ignorance.

After MK's sad loss, i add my relief to the fact that the Air Atlanta
crew are alive and well,

[shake rattle n roll]

I wonder what turn around time they had. I believe that they use Sharja as a tech stop.

[411A]

For starters, cw6, I worked for 'em for a few years, so I know only too well....

And secondly, you will recall that the UKCAA grounded 'em in 1998 for maintenance 'irregularities'.
Widely reported at the time.

Now of course they might have improved since then (the operative word here is might), but I am reminded of the old saying...a leopard does not change its spots.

Awakevortice,

That has been tried before, and it got nowhere.
You see, I don't call folks names, just comment on items as I see it.
It is called an 'opinion'.
Like it or not...and I guess some don't.:suspect:

[Flying Guy]

I am new with AA having come from another 747 operator. I have flown five of Air Atlanta's Classics in the last three weeks and have to say they were all in good shape. Talking to the guys who have been around here for a few years, they agree that maintenance at AA has vastly improved and, in fact, become quite good over the last couple of years. Based on what I have seen, I agree.

I flew this particular aircraft just last week and it is a fine airplane. Trims better than most and it is a shame to lose it.

[411A]

< ...overran the runway at SHJ after blowing out both nose tires on takeoff....>

Any guesses as to why this would happen?
Main tires I can understand, but both nose tires....?
Sounds fishy to me, presuming for the moment that they were both serviceable to begin with...:ooh:

[Kato747]

411A:

Please confine your inane "opinions" to the bar .... I'm sure you know where that is!

AAI MX has indeed improved drastically over the past years since you were fired. So button up, and let the accident investigators do their job.

Assumptions that the nose tires were U/S is grossly negligent.

Initial indications are possible FOD'ed engines on T/O roll. Sad to see the over-run wasn't quite as firm as we'd all like to see.

Very happy there were no serious injuries.

[Whiskery]

411A aka "try hard aviator" !

You know as well as I do that maintenance audit in 1998 showed up ziltch and was the result of a report to UKCAA from a disgruntled, ex AAI employee.

Speaking of disgruntled, ex-employees, why don't you get yourself a rreal job 411A and stop pestering professional aviators on this forum ?:mad:

[GuppyEng.com]

A20WE.

I have been up to the aircraft as well and both wings look like they are still attatched to the aircraft to me.

[HotDog]

411A, we lost a Convair 880M into Hong Kong Harbour on Nov. 5, 1967 due to a nosewheel tyre thread seperation during the take-off roll. This had nothing to do with lack of maintenance but we immediately stopped using re-threads for the nose wheels.

[abusedbyaai]

i dont for a second belive this incident was due to poor maintenance

that does not mean by any standard that aai mx in general is even cloose to good....

[Atlanta-Driver]

You seem to have a problem with anything to do with Air Atlanta... Might it be that we operate real aircraft and in great numbers, not a pipe dream or should I say a "Dream fleet of L1011's". Jealous perhaps? or fired by AAI, or not called back?

Your comments are misplaced and frankly starting to get really boring. If you do not have anything constructive to say or anything new (As you seem to repeat yourself on your posts) just lay low and don't post, leave it to others.

AD

[an-124]

I have about 15 photos - but dont know how to attach them to the post...

It pretty much looks like a write off.

Can anyone tell em how to attach them and I will.

[an-124]

mike - sent you a pm.

[Basil]

As 411A says, he makes comments but refrains from attacking individuals. I have no objection to his right to post.
So far as AA goes, I think they are, to put it politely, a cheeky bunch of chancers to offer the rates which attach to their international contract. Until they get that part of their act together I, for one, certainly do not wish their proprieters well.
Since I've been asked twice (and refused) to work for them I guess and hope that they are experiencing difficulty obtaining experienced crews.

[five iron]

AN-124,

Any joy getting these photos on?

[an-124]

tried what Mike said to get the photos on, but it say I have to waitin until approx 1800 GMT ??? strange... If anyone else know a way to do it, please let me know.

[411A]

Interesting comments Basil.
Could it be that the company now is experiencing the problems that have been building for so many years, such as sub-standard crew salaries and conditions, previously mentioned sub par maintenance...and now the associated difficulties with rapid expansion?
If this sort of incident/accident keeps up, the company may well fall thru the thin ice it has been skating on for so many years.

Folks seem to come and go at AAI, yet the company does not seem to learn from its past mistakes.
It could of course take a turn for the worse, and invite (for Iceland) an ICAO/FAA audit, with perhaps a less than desirable outcome.

[beaucaire]

AN -124
try this hosting service ( free ) - it works great and no delays...
http://www.imageshack.us/

[acmi48]

to all air atlanta staff..bad luck but at least nobody hurt this
time.. to all the detractors, currently AAI flying a very professional operation for our airline with out a sign of any kind of malpratice.. and the team we have are a pleasure to work with


:ok:

[CargoOne]

two low-res pics:

http://www.russianhome.com/pics/airatlanta.jpg

[an-124]

OK guys - hopefully these will work





http://img120.exs.cx/img120/7997/8457-12.jpg

http://img122.exs.cx/img122/3793/8457-3.jpg

http://img111.exs.cx/img111/5911/8457-5.jpg

http://img102.exs.cx/img102/7233/8457-7.jpg

[lomapaseo]

considering that someone stated that the plane is off the end of the runway, it would suggest that the nosewheel is secondary to an abort at too high a speed.

I think I'll wait and see if other info turns up to suggest that the plane was indeed flyable but instead aborted resulting in the reported damage.

[speed freek]

They didn't want us flying around Sharjah today, funny that. But eek!! On that last photo did you lot see what happened to number 3? And forward of the wing root doesn't look to healthy either! :{

[an-124]

speed freak - here is another photo of number 3 engine -

http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4212/8457-10.jpg

cheers

[jopu]

The a/c was flying for Lufthansa Cargo (from HKG and on it's way to FRA).

LH Cargo has been leasing this a/c as well as two other, TF-ARP and TF-ARV after LH sold them to CC in June this year.


I'm going to really miss this a/c :{
I had a pleasure to fly on it as a passenger in 2000 and it used to had my home town name painted on it :D

[speed freek]

Hey, AN-124, thanks a bunch mate! :ok: good shots.

[hobie]

Early in the thread ACE was asked ....

"ACE - How can you be so sure it will be written off ??"

spot on ACE :ok:

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

AN-124

Any chance we can see all of the photos?
Impressive shots considering I've heard they aren't too
keen on photogs at SHJ

[doubleu-anker]

Don't know what all the fuss is about, to be honest. They aborted, the A/C run off the R/W. Is that a crime?

Doesn't appear anyone was hurt which is the most important and AA haven't killed anyone yet, to my knowedge. Which is more than can be said for a lot of other airlines.

[Fragman88]

AN124, good photos of a sad event.

Difficult to tell, but it looks like not all the engs were in full reverse? Time and the investigation will tell.

Max weight freighters from the ME in the summer always used to get my full attention, rotate being Vr or too few reds remaining, whichever came sooner!

:bored:

[W Weasel]

http://www.freewebs.com/wweasel/

[readywhenreaching]

not too far off the departure end of rwy 30

how is it that terrain is so rough so close to the runway ?

normally, no overrun that comes to a stop so close to the runway, results in a write off

the sheikhs should better invest in up-to-date overrun area and definetely a new runway surface would be great !
:hmm:

[Rocco in Budapest]

Don't know what all the fuss is about, to be honest. They aborted, the A/C run off the R/W. Is that a crime?

According to that logic everything is OK just as long as you don´t kill anyone. I am afraid that only goes when the aircraft is doomed and you save the day such as the Sioux City accident or better yet the more recent DHL A300 in Baghdad.

Not saying it is the case here but blatantly disregarding procedures and endangering the lives of others is in fact a CRIME!

[HotDog]

Rocco, do you by any chance know a good friend of mine, Capt. Varga Janos; ex Malev? Now flying for Hainan Airlines on their Beijing/Budapest run.

[superpilut]

Bet the crew didn't do it on purpose, so hope they'll not be killed over it.
Good luck!

[AAIGUY]

Still not sure which of my friends this happend to, but I am glad everyones ok. Chin up boys

[hobie]

quote

"how is it that terrain is so rough so close to the runway ?"

Why is it that so many Runways have large obstacales, almost purposely left in place?

Our local strip (10,500ft) has a stone bank almost twenty feet high, no more than 400 feet from the end of the Runway
:( ..... there is no reason why it has to be there!:confused:

[mutt]

blatantly disregarding procedures and endangering the lives of others is in fact a CRIME!

Rocco, I suggest that you investigate the FAA certification requirements of a Classic 747 especially in relation to the brakes, then ask yourself just how many B747's following a high speed abort on a field length limited takeoff will remain on the runway?

So even the best crew on a good day can easily end up departing the end of the runway.

Mutt.

[Rocco in Budapest]

Mutt,

If you read my previous post you would have seen that I said that I was not referring to this specific incident nor am I going to speculate on the event.

With regards to your rather condescending post, I think you just made a very valid point! You´re better off continuing.

[Alex Whittingham]

I think Mutt is alluding to the probability of stopping in time. If you reject at V1 on a field length limited runway you're looking at a 50:50 chance of ending up in the overrun even if you do everything right.

[speed freek]

Not accusing anyone of this, so don't start! :} But I heard they tried rejecting just after V1. Anybody else hear that?

BTW:

how is it that terrain is so rough so close to the runway ?

The damage has ben caused by piled up sand. Last time I checked sand is moved very easily by wind and/or jet blast. To keep the area perfectly or even relatively clear would require a hell of a lot of round the clock work - expense. Just my opinion.

[mutt]

Thanks for the offer Rocca, guess that I will continue. I wasn’t referring to the AAI incident, as I have NO idea as to what happened.

But lets take your B737, pick some nice short field where you will be runway limited, does your airline account for the line-up distance? Did Boeing test the aircraft with new brakes and tires? Did Boeing test the aircraft on a perfectly calm day with ISA conditions? Did Boeing test the aircraft knowing the exact weight of the aircraft? How long does it take you to say V1?

It isn’t really a case of disregarding procedures or endangering the lives of others as you so nicely put it. I would have thought that as a professional aviator you would have appreciated the situation that your colleagues may have found themselves in, and accepted that sometimes 5hit happens!

Mutt. :)

[SFI145]

Could Alex Whittingam please explain:-

(a) What is meant exactly by a reject at V1?

(b) Where the 50% statistic comes from?

[Alex Whittingham]

OK. By 'a reject at V1' I mean taking the first action to reject the take-off at V1. In other words shouting stop, retarding the throttles, starting to brake if autobrake is not set, all at the instant the PNF calls V1.

The 50:50 stat comes from the idea of a normal distribution, where, if you take a large group of aircraft at identical weights and speeds, some stop very well, but only a few, some go miles off the end, but only a few, whereas most cluster around a mean. The Americans call it the 'bell-shaped curve'. Assuming the testing has been done correctly when you stop in the above circumstances the mean aircraft, or gross to use the proper term, will just stop in the EDA, by the end of the stopway. This is only the average aircraft, though. 50% of aircraft will lie to the right of the mean in a normal distribution and stop in a longer distance, 50% will stop in less.

In other words, there are no safety factors built into the stop case other than the improbability of a failure at VEF that requires a stop, which, from memory, is assessed at an improbability of 1:100,000 to 1:10,000,000. This is the principal reason why most take-off briefs have a niff naff and trivia cut off at 80 kts or thereabouts and will only require a stop at high speed but below V1 for killers e.g. engine failure, fire, structural failure and sometimes a config warning.

[doubleu-anker]

Rocco

"You’re better off continuing." Not necessarily Sir. There are exceptions.

There have been cases, where continuing has not been the best option. Take the HS748 at Stansted a few years back. The Captain aborted, AFTER V1 and saved the day and runoff the end of the R/W. Not by the book, but saved the day, not too mention the passengers and themselves.

Not being critical of the dead, but the ones that didn't abort after V1, now let me see, The DC8 at Jeddah, over ten years ago. The AF Concord at CDG, to name 2.

Yes, I am aware 20/20 hindsight is a marvellous thing.

Until the investigation is complete on the overrun at SHJ, lets not be too critical of the crew. If the tyres had disintegrated and they aborted, even after v1? Well who knows? I would certainly rather be sitting in a burning A/C on the ground at the end of the R/W than in the air.

On the other hand, if they didn't follow the book, and it was deemed to be the wrong decision, then they will have the book thrown at them.

[an-124]

I am not a pilot, so unlike Alex Whittingham, I am not going to offer my expertise on a piloting issue I am obviously not qualified to talk about. What I can offer is only what I have heard "from a reliable source".

QUOTE
The aircraft was going down the runway and the captain was contacted by the tower to say that there was fire / smoke coming from an engine (dunno which one), and the captain decided to abort takeoff. - Hence the blown tyres.
UNQUOTE

[Alex Whittingham]

Oi! Cheeky git! How much experience do you want?

[Arctaurus]

Type certification is invariably completed with new aircraft, new equipment and pilots who know the test program.

So, it's reasonable to assume that the results these people obtain will be the very best that could be hoped for.

Lets advance the clock 20 years with the by now very tired airframe, carrying components whose tolerances are little looser than they ought to be (but still within limits)and a crew that is just expecting a normal take off. Even the rejected brief is a reflection of a legitimate expectation in the crew's mind that the runway will take the aircraft to a full stop. After all, the take off data and figures calculated before departure said so.

I think we can all understand and relate to the mind set here.

Now the reality - We're right up there approaching V1 and there are several loud bangs. Uncertainty as to what has really happened is followed by a decision to reject the take off. There is a resulting slight delay in the application of the retarding devices combined with less than optimal braking system performance.

Next thing - the aircraft is off the runway at the other end.

What went wrong ?

It is FAR too easy to criticise the crew for failing to initiate the rejected manoeuvre early enough. The true cause is a combination of ALL the factors described above.

The largest contributors IMHO, may well be:

1. the performance data is really no longer valid for the condition of the airframe and engines.

2. The gross weight of the aircraft may not be known sufficiently accurately. There may also be c of g error inputs.

This is a very complex issue that should NOT have the crew as the automatic cause of the over run.

Aircraft age and condition play a significant role in what occurs on the runway.

Maybe it's time to start looking at applying degradation factors to the performance tables to try and offset the effects of aircraft aging.

Good luck to the AAI guys.

[an-124]

Sorry Alex, no offence meant, but you are bearing my frustrations of people on pprune that talk a lot and don't say much.

[411A]

Maybe, just maybe...all this is the result of the poison dwarf's attempts to lower the pay, and hence, less than desirable folks find themselves, in command.
I suspect LH will not be amused.:sad: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[doubleu-anker]

Well it's the old story isn't it, "pay peanuts and you get ........" I know exactly what you are saying. False economy IMHO.

[hobie]

well those two comments should cheer the operating crew up :(

[Paladini]

411A: what a batch of twaddle!

I'm fairly certain that the poison leprechaun was nowhere near Sharjah on the day, nor did he jump out from behind the Jeppessens to distract the crew during their unfortunate abort....

Your comments on cutting pay and "and hence, less than desirable folks find themselves, in command." is absolute BOLLUX!

You continue to prove why AAI let you go in the first place. The "DCM medal" ...Don't come Monday.... must absolutely burn on your chest!

Both the Captain and F/O are, to my certain knowledge, much more capable than thou! Your brash, asinine comments have no place in any viable discussion of the issue.

& Doubleu-ancher:

The fact that the pay is below industry standards is not much of your concern, since you're obviously not in the business. Did you happen to "want" to fly for Cathay mainline at some point. I heard the same CR*P from "main-liners" while at AHK.

[In the slot]

Alex Whittingham offers a more than adequate description of a reject before, around, or after V1.
For those who have never flown heavy jets, where field length and de-rated takeoffs are FAR more critical than lighter commercials, it is well accepted that an RTO is considered less and less preferable, the closer one gets to V1.
However, superimposed on this is the uncertainty of what failure has occurred, on hearing "bangs" or "thumps" and "vibration" in the 747 cockpit, which is far removed from the engines and the gear, so it is not always obvious whether you are having maybe a surge/compressor stall/or a blow out.

Sympathies for the crew, no professional wishes ANY incident on ANY crew!

Alex....cheers for the Perf A Refresher course 10 years ago at Gatwick! Been flying 747's ever since!

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Well we will always have the bashers that will whine and whinge about pay and conditions. But if their so called super duper paying airlines started retrenching and they found themselves out on the street with bills to pay and kids to feed, it would be so amazing how bloody fast their super duper high standards and morals would fall apart like farts in the wind.

Guys and girls take jobs after reading the contracts, renegotiating points and signing on the dotted line with eyes wide open. No point whinging after the fact. If terms and conditions not suitable don't sign.

Maintenance standards. Well from speedbird to bangbird most if not all flight crews have no idea what maintenence standards are and what screw ups are kept in house. Just because the LAE smiles at you and says he will take care of it doesn't mean a thing. The crew have left the scene and in a big operation would probably not fly the same aircraft for sometime. How many pilots scrutinise the MR for defered items in the MR2 that they have entered in the MR1 months ago (Who really remembers and tracks this)

Rejected take off, I agree with all you guys have written and would like to add.

V1, Must be greater than VMCG. Not less than VMBE. With 1 second to recognise. 1 second confirm and 1 second to react.

Rejecting a takeoff after V1 is acceptable if the Captain asseses that the aerodynamic capability of the aircraft is in doubt and would be detrimental to safe flight.

Wooblah.

[Engineer]

Guys and girls take jobs after reading the contracts, renegotiating points and signing on the dotted line with eyes wide open. No point whinging after the fact. If terms and conditions not suitable don't sign.

No they just sign for the money if the company culture is bad, you will accept it until your feet do the talking.

As for the whinging part it this is the only job that pilot are really good at :ok:

[Rocco in Budapest]

With only the responses I´ve seen since my last response I must admit that I´ve lost all faith in the credibility of the one´s responding to my initial post.

it´s actually just now how i realise how much of a wannabe website this has become.

[Engineer]

How naive you must be when you post on this website do you really expect a response from the 80000+ members

I think not :{

[icemanalgeria]

Alex you made me laugh, AN 124 obviously does not know you back ground as we do.

And for the rest of you guys who are making judgements about what the crew should have done and what they did not do, you are going to have egg on your face when the final report comes out, trust me.

I standby my first posting on this subject, unless you where in the flight deck you can not assume the correct actions to be taken.

Even if the assumptions in the post are correct and they stopped for burst tires, this does not mean they made an error of judgement.

In the sim it's easy a burst tire goes bang, and the aircraft swings, in real life this may not be what happens.

[an-124]

Alex - apologies, i wrote that before seeing your second post. After seeing what has been written on this thread - and in combination with the MK thread etc etc etc, just got a little frustrated with the crap that is being thrown back and forth..
Sorry if offence was caused....

[doubleu-anker]

Paladini

My apologies. I was not pointing the finger at AAI's pay in particular. Of course pay is not everything. It is how the company or it's "agent" treats it's employees. For example, are they continuely lied too or misled, given no information, that results in rumours etc. How many different "deals" being banded about by JOS, with policy made up on the "hoof" and the spur of the moment? How many different pay scales are there for people doing the same job at AAI??

I'm sure you would admit, that after a decent day's work, there should be a decent days pay, which equates to a happier crew environment. Therefore the crews would spend a little extra time thinking about the job rather than whinging about Ts and Cs.

A happy crewmember is a safe crewmember. There appears to me there is a great deal of unhappiness amongst the crews at AAI. Just read the threads with the topics concerning AAI. Do you read into a thread, about BA, for example, of such unhappiness? In view of recent events, maybe the results of AAI's policy is coming home to roost.

Did I ever want to join CX? No, I did not. As for Hong Kong the term F.I.L.T.H. comes to mind. Let me elaborate. "Failed in London, try Hongkong."

[Torquelink]

Mutt said: "Did Boeing test the aircraft with new brakes and tires?".

My understanding is that, for certification, the RTO test has to be completed at MTOW with worn brakes and tyres - at least these days. Maybe when the Classic was certificated that wasn't the case? As one of the great uninformed it seems to me that certification requirements should include an additional "real world" second or two for the crew to recognise what's happening before deciding to abort.

[Phil Brentnall]

Back in the good old days of BOAC the rejected take-off was certified and checked under the criteria that one allowed the pilot one second to recognise the situation and make his decision and a further one second for each manipulation required.
Assuming therefore a failure exactly at V1 on an older type of 747, the aircraft would travel a considerable distance before effectively decelerating, during which the pilot would have recognised/decided to abandon take-off, closed the throttles, applied full brakes, deployed the speedbrakes and selected full reverse - a total of 5 seconds.
Are modern aircraft so certified?

[yeoman]

411A

Thanks for the update on AAI and its employees. Goes nicely with the precis on the standard of Britannia pilots in the wake of the Girona accident.

Could you post a picture of yourself so we can all see the exacting standard we should all aspire to as pilots because clearly we are all lacking in many areas.

Oh, and could you autograph it as well, for my 6 year old daughter of course.

[GotTheTshirt]

Brake wear.
Initially the RTO did not take into consideration multiple worn brakes.
Especially a situation where legally you can go with every brake worn to just above it limits.
There is brake wear limit indicated by an indicator on each brake.

The situation was highlighted by a DC10 that over ran on an RTO when it should have been able to stop.
( I am sure someone will fill in the details of the particular incident ! :D )
The problem was multiple brakes were worn but still in MM limits.

ADs ( 92-10-03, 97,02-04, etc) were issued that basically reduced the amount of wear that could be accepted and also consideration is given to uneven brake wear.

[asianaav8r]

None of this surprises me as AAI seem to have the rejects of the aviation world filling their seats!

If I were an employer and saw AAI as a previous airline, I would most certainly reject the individuals application.

I'm surprised there haven't been more incidents or accidents.

Blame whoever, but my bet is on the crew's actions, or should I say lack of actions!

[yeoman]

asianaav8r

Could we have your picture too?

Stop me if I'm wrong here, but a pattern is emerging. Both "veteran" pilots who've been round the block/world a few times. Both have no doubt lots to offer in experience.

Both from America.

Is it really neccessary to be so unpleasant and to tar everyone in a particular outfit with the same brush?:E

[Few Cloudy]

I don´t know too many employees at AAI but the ones I do know are certainly not the rejects of the aviation world. They are well respected captains from a couple of well respected airlines, who are wanting to carry on flying after their career contract finished.

If I were the boss of AAI, that is exactly the sort of pilot I would employ too, given the operational environment and the dependence placed on the flight crews by the company.

[cargo boy]

asianaav8r has just proved the old adage that it is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt: If I were an employer and saw AAI as a previous airline, I would most certainly reject the individuals application.Just goes to show why someone like him isn't and no doubt ever will be an "employer" with that kind of discriminating perception. :rolleyes:

Using conclusions like those mentioned above I assume we can draw inference from the post about the Asiana B747 and the Southwest B737 mentioned in another thread on here that an "employer" using the same logic should never employ someone like asianaav8r because he is most likely to try and land his a/c on another one waiting at the threshold. It's coments by fekwits like asianaav8r that only serve to highlight that some (alleged) pilots have the intelligence of a housebrick when it comes to jumping to conclusions based on rumours that appear on here from time to time. :hmm:

[Shore Guy]

Ahem, sorry to break up the whining/bitching/he said/she said that has now become a staple of PPRUNE, but.....

Anyone have more factual information on this event?



:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[csomesense]

Well said. Far too much !!!!e-slinging, and not enough actual input based on the event under discussion. Like a lot of other threads on this site.

[speed freek]

hear hear shore guy. 'Bout time somebody put a stop to the madness......

[Atlanta-Driver]

Your comments leave me with mouth open... Asiana you seem to work for seems to be your measure of standards. Or perhaps you shoudl use KAL as the measure.

I would guess that the 1993, B737 accident was an by no mean the fault of a superb crew who after the third approach attempt flew the aircraft into a 1000ft high ridge?

How about that B744 that performed Czardas (Hungarian folk dance) in PANC some years back with a Russian IL62 throwing containers around and braking terminal windows!

Link to pictures and full text

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/asiana_anchorage.htm


For a 38 year veteran of aviation biz, your comments are suprisingly naive and as a matter of fact, quite insulting to the many fine people that work with AAI.

AD

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Aye Aye, Atlanta Driver,

Met a couple of Atlanta boys in K.L and none were whinging about the company. Infact their exact words were "AAI might not be the best paying company but certainly is'nt the worst, but the conditions and people make up for any deficiencies"

Seems like a lot of wanabe accident investigators here.

Facts Facts thats all that count.

P.S Can I have some pictures and autographs too.................


Wooblah.

[cdon]

Guys

I am due to fly on Air Atlanta (EUK is Air Atlanta isnt it??) to Sharm El Sheikh (SSH), Egypt from LGW in a couple of weeks, and to be honest I am rather worried! I think it is a 747-200 we are flying on - should I have cause for concern and should I try to book another airline?? All I hear about is delays due to technical problems...and 'incidents' like on this forum

Cheers

[Deskjockey]

Similar request to above - does anyone have any info on the ex SQ 747-400s they're operating for Iberia? Can't seem to find any info on the seat configuration from the Atlanta website - presumably they've done away with the individual TVs?

[lomapaseo]

I am due to fly on Air Atlanta (EUK is Air Atlanta isnt it??) to Sharm El Sheikh (SSH), Egypt from LGW in a couple of weeks, and to be honest I am rather worried! I think it is a 747-200 we are flying on - should I have cause for concern and should I try to book another airline?? All I hear about is delays due to technical problems...and 'incidents' like on this forum

Well they, like all airlines, usually don't report their succesful flights, so its hard to compare the actual risk for you to make an advised decison.

Why don't you take the trip and report back to us

[cdon]

Because I might not make it back or be so delayed the thread will have expired

just wanted some friendly advice really

[74tweaker]

You "might not make it back or be so delayed" no matter who you fly with - it's called life.

If your really that worried about it - rebook with someone else.

[Yobbo]

cdon

Have you considered staying home?

[ALLDAYDELI]

The offload of cargo from this aircraft still ongoing apparantly.
104T payload being offloaded from the SCD as the nosedoor is smashed into the ground and is u/s.
Any problem is that the tail and the nosedoor are several fathoms higher than iit would normally be above flat ground level !

sorry that should say SIDE CARGO DOOR (SCD) not nosedoor being used to offload the cargo.

[matkat]

Guys

I am due to fly on Air Atlanta (EUK is Air Atlanta isnt it??) to Sharm El Sheikh (SSH), Egypt from LGW in a couple of weeks, and to be honest I am rather worried! I think it is a 747-200 we are flying on - should I have cause for concern and should I try to book another airline?? All I hear about is delays due to technical problems...and 'incidents' like on this forum

My friend is the Head ground engineer there,You have no worries.

[Green Guard]

Well done AAI crew. The chief must be proud of them.

Any chance to see the names or at least the TLC-s.?

Alex
You as an English should have understood THAT an-124 NEVER put in question your expertise. He only failed to put a FULL STOP ( oopps a PERIOD) after the "piloting issue".
See, like this:
I am not a pilot, so unlike Alex Whittingham, I am not going to offer my expertise on a piloting issue. I am obviously not qualified to talk about. What I can offer is only what I have heard "from a reliable source".

Besides he gave very valuable comments and photos

[Paladini]

Latest goss from the trenches has a ruptured brake line starting a fire on the Rt main LG truck and at least three of the four wheels grinding down to the rims. Unfortunate, but also took out brakes on Left side as well.

Reject at or BELOW V1 attempted! Great job by crew in steering off to the side, and missing the approach light stanchions! Over-run was supposedly less than 50 kts!

Contrary to early reports, all 4 BRT's (big round things) were in "reverse"! Two are "possibly" salvagable..... ME sand does a job on rotating things, it is reliably foretold.

Added:
Unabashed copy from MK Halifax thread.....

As far as I know, none of the AAI/Lufthansa Contract aircraft, or crew use any 'Computerised' Boeing data. All of their performance data is compiled by NavTech and all calculations on the flight deck are done using these tables...not a computer!

Believe me, the airplane is going to be scrapped!

[Atlanta-Driver]

Green Guard says

"Any chance to see the names or at least the TLC-s.?"

This is a public forum and names of those involved do not belong on it.
If you work for the company you will find out sooner or later via the grapewine. If you do not , well the you do not need to know (Not that one really needs to know even if one works for the company).

I would think that the cause of this incident would be of more interest than the names of those involved.

AD

[411A]

Hmmm, ruptured brake line.
Sounds like a maintenance shortcoming to me.

Perhaps the UKCAA needs to get involved again, not to mention the LBA.
The Icelandic DCA will certainly not intervene...or will they?

Where/when will it end, I wonder?

The next incident/accident can't be far off.:uhoh: :uhoh:

[Paladini]

411A

Holy BeJeezusss 411A..... why does EVERYTHING have to be an AAI maintenance shortcoming with you?

Have you considered that Concorde came to a fiery end because of running over debris on the runway? Is it not remotely possible that a similar incident could have caused a rupture here? ...or was Concorde being maintained by AAI engineers?

[ironbutt57]

There was also the issue of the missing wheel spacer on the Concorde that although it was demonstrated to cause much mayhem with the landing gear, was completely ruled out by the french.to the dismay of the AAIB..easier to blame the yanks...if 411A is keen to blame maintenance, then it would seem that some posters here are just as keen to rule it out..may or may not be...we'll soon find out...anyway if it's third party maintenance, doesn't reflect badly on AA as an operator does it?

[CargoOne]

Rumors are two or three aircraft evacuation attempts failed, involving one death and few injuried. Can anyone confirm?

[Paladini]

CARGO ONE

What are you talking about? All four of the AAI guys in SHJ escaped without injuries! It was a CARGO aircraft!

Concorde was an entirely different story....no evacuation attempts there!

WTFO?

[hailstone]

Paladini,

i believe that CargoOne refers to casualties during the process of getting the aircraft out of the sand, eg the salvaging of the aircraft.

CargoOne,

supposedly the EK crew trying to get the aircraft out of the sand were not only having problems, but there are said to have been injuries. no further details that i have, though....:D

(spelling)

[FlightSafety]

The a/c is going to be scrapped. The initial event was not a rupture of the brake line. There was no fire. Please wait for the investiagtion report by the GCAA of the UAE.

[callout]

You never give up 411A

Was it the AAI maintenance people who left the APU running on a Tristar unattended? I think you remember what happened. It burned out the pump anc could have caused a fire.

Don't jump to conclusions till the facts are brought out. Just because you wern't called back don't put the maintenance personnel down. I know many of them and they do a good job.
What do they say about people who live in glass houses?

[callout]

Just found some additional information on this accident. The Captain was ex Lufthansa and the maintenance was being performed on this aircraft by the Lufthansa maintenance staff.
I hope this quiets some folks out there.

[FlightSafety]

Hi Callout!

Your information is wrong. The Cpt is NOT ex Lufthansa but a German. That was a big rumor but definetly not correct.

Flight Safety

[4HolerPoler]

Latest news is that the aircraft fell off the jacks that were supporting it - sounds like it happened a few days ago - can anyone confirm this?

4HP

[411A]

Yes indeed, callout, APU's were normally left running with AAI or contract mx in attendance, which they were. Perhaps they didn't know how to shut it down...or know that the APU has auto fire protection.
It would appear that the past rather marginal oversight that the company has had, together with rapid growth, has led to unfortunate incidents, and now an accident.
I can well imagine an audit is needed of the entire operation.

[FlightSafety]

Hi 4HolerPoler,

that´s right. The a/c tipped tailwards to the ground with workers below.

[Earl]

What exit did the crew use to evacuate the aircraft?
Two doors appear open in the pics, The RH upper deck and the overhead emergency escape hatch.
Perhaps the shack was in the way preventing the RH slide raft from being deployed.
Seems that they would have wanted to get out ASAP after completing the evacuation checklist.
Did the slide get removed before the pics where taken , or the enertia reals brought back inside?
Happy that the crew is OK!
Could have been much worse.

[Whiskery]

Hey Bobby, a maintenance audit on AAI now would turn up the same as it did in 1998, a BIG, FAT, ZERO ! :ok:

Just keep working on that airline of yours, with it's fleet of 15 Tristars :{

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,

EARL,
When I operated AAI (or any other) cargo B747 Classic, we always only armed the L1 door for evacuation from the main deck, and the upper deck one (or both if they were fitted).
Not to preclude an evacuation from any other door, but that was always the norm.

and...Whiskery,
If any scrutiny of AAI maintenance was worth its salt, it would find a mind-boggling amount of discrepencies, and thats only from my own personal experiences there.

Give you just one example, happened back in late 2002 in Lagos.

The B747 pax airplane was down for a day for regular maintenance.
Late that night it was scheduled LOS-JFK.
Around 0200 local I was called out to crew that flight to JFK, because the a/c had returned to LOS with an engine shut down, and crew duty limits would not allow the original crew to continue. It was about an 11 hour flight, if I recall.

Very curious, I arrived at the airplane, crew still aboard (because pax were still aboard), and found out they had experienced a fire warning on #4 engine, shut it down, dumped lots of fuel, and landed with no real problems.

During the flight prep, I spoke to some of the maint. people, and found out that the engine mechanic had done the normal borescope check on all the engines the day prior, and had not replaced one of the access covers correctly on #4.
This would normally be picked up by the Indepentant Inspection following, but, since the lead mechanic was back at the hotel, he did his own independant inspection, and signed everything up tight!

Unfortunately, it was picked up by the fire warning system!

Not another thing was ever heard, and nobody in maint. wanted to talk about it - funny about that!

That incident was one of many I was involved with, thats why I'm now not there!

Don't talk to me about no problems at AAI!

Cheers

[callout]

Hey Flight Detent, would love to see you arm the L1 cargo door since its not fitted with a slide. All airlines, and I mean ALL airlines have had mishaps because of maintenance, flight crews, caters etc. so why do you only point to AAI? Have you ever worked for any other carrier?

[Phil Squares]

I've been sitting on the sidelines since this occured. In fact, I passed through SHJ a day after it happened.

I left AAI several months ago. The constant self sacrifice that was expected of the crews just wasn't worth it. Unless AAI has changed radically, the crews were constantly being asked to either not write anything up or if they did it was "fixed" with a BIC pen. The crews were always being akded to compromise their integrity with no back up from the company.

A case in point. I believe the aircraft was ARG, but the aircraft had a history of having the landing gear door light coming on in flight. It was written up by several crews, myself included, and the fix was to adjust the door switches. Finally, if I remember correctly, the aircraft was written up and non AAI mx looked at the problem. They discovered a cracked keel beam. There are lots of stories like that. PLEASE don't interpret this to say MX was the cause of the SHJ accident.

Off the top of my head, I would be more inclined to point the finger at training or the lack of it. I don't know if the head instructor on the 747 is still in that position, but his appaling lack of experience was amazing. He was a nice guy, even with a few beers in him and his face was beet red, he was still a nice guy. But he had no place in that position. Look at the former VP of Flights Ops.

Just my opinion.

[DoctorA300]

To all self professed "Profesional Aviators" :yuk:
Will you all PLEASE stop commenting on maintenace standards, you have not got a clue what that means, good or bad. If I as a "Profesional Licensed Engineer" commented on the operation of ANY aircraft,
1) I would be talking a load of B°llocks
2) I would be shot down by you lot
Brgds
Doc

[411A]

Problem is, Doc, the folks at the pointy end have to face these maintenance problems firsthand, and oftentimes not from the safety of the tarmac either.
And, the problem is not from the line mx either (generally), but the management culture in the head shed.

[747CLASSIC]

Whiskery,
The only reason AAI did not take a fall in 98 was because some of the MX people were smart enough to stay one step ahead of the inspectors! Case in point; I personally know of the incident in MAD where the MX people were hiding a car full of bogus parts on the airport trying to stay on step ahead of the inspectors. God knows what they did at other stations!
I also know of a Tristar that had a two engine ferry after an engine failure. MX did the required borescope of the other two engines. The mechanic that did the borescope inspection of these engines would not sign off the inspection because of the shape that they were in so another mechanic signed it off. One week after the engine change one of the two "good" engines failed!
MX at AAI is weak! Management at AAI SUCKS! I did my time at AAI and I would rather work under the golden arches. At least working at McDonalds you have a schedule and get to go home once in a while!

Classic
p.s. And for you Doc, I am a "Licensed Engineer".

[Phil Squares]

DoctorA300, I usually try to avoid personalised posts, but I'll make an exception.

I don't know if you worked/work for AAI. But, I have. It sucks. Worst place imaginable. I couldn't agree with 747Classic more. I pulled the plug because of the wide spread problems at AAI. Sad thing is the people who make it work are among some of the most competent in the industry. That's what had kept AAI afloat. However, there is a gigantic sucking noise in KEF. That's the void created by the lack of management. I'd like to tell you I saw the handwriting on the wall, but the simple fact is I was lucky. I had another job offer and jumped at the chance to leave AAI.

If you re-read my post, no where did I as a "Professional Aviator", as you call us, comment on the MX standards. The real problem at AAI is there are none! The only time things get fixed is when the flight crew refuses to take the aircraft. In fact, are the freighters RNP5 yet? I know for a fact, when the freighter operation first got going, the management just bypassed the fact RNP5 was required to operate in DXB.

In my post I related an incident that happened to me and some other crews I know. That incident is a fact. If you have anything to add about that specific aircraft or incident, by all means jump in. However to castigate someone for stating his/her opinion about AAI is as you say, B*llocks!

[Green Guard]

Phil is right.
But Phil, I also try to understand what Doctor is actually saying without his intention to do so:
" If I as a "Profesional Licensed Engineer" commented on the operation of ANY aircraft,
(?? !!!! (in AAI) !!!!! ??)
1) I would be talking a load of B°llocks
2) I would be shot down by you lot "

There are two reasons he is obviously working for AAI.
1. His vigorous defending position of MX at AAI.
2. Hi is writing from Sweden. Well most mx in AAI comes from that area.

[punkalouver]

After reading through the last few posts, I think a few early posters owe 411A an apology or at least admit they were wrong. Will they have the backbone to do it?
Please 411A, tell us some more of your experiences.

[doubleu-anker]

Phil Squares

Excuse me!! "An appalling lack of experience", have never been an obstacle for command, training and management positions at AAI. You forgot to add, one more, an appalling lack of man management skills.

Now AAE, that's a different kettle of fish..

[411A]

Oh, there are so many, punkalouver....

< INU's replaced with no serviceable tags in sight (no s/n off/on either), and when asked 'where is the data?' told to 'mind your own business'.

-or-

<INU's 'updated' with RNP10 mods...that never worked, yet no MX action taken

-or-

<Engines trimmed in MAN for proper rated thrust, but not meeting same downroute, due to ambient temperatures...repeated write-ups about this, but no action taken...until the Commander on the scene said 'enough is enough' and planned an enroute tech stop to reduce departure weight.

-or-

A so-called 'base commander' trying to ferry engine inop without proper training in the procedure, and MX saying 'good show'

-or-

<Having folks in MZJ strip a TriStar of spares, without having these same spares properly documented by a DAR as 'serviceable', then using 'em on line equipment in the UK...still without the proper tags.

There had to be a reason why the UKCAA grounded 'em in '98, and the previous comments by others have clearly demonstrated why.

Clearly the company has a problem in the MX area, and it is only the dedication of flight crew that have kept 'em in the air, up to now.

Notice that there are a few here who defend the company without reservation, while others have had enough...and moved on.

Generally, where there is smoke, fire cannot be far behind.

Is another SHJ in the making, I wonder?

The company has gotten much larger now than in years past, yet apparently the corporate culture remains the same.

Severe difficulties ahead, undoubtedly.

[DoctorA300]

Green Guard,
Men might be from Mars and women from venus, but you my son, must be from f@cking Pluto......what in my post made you deduct that I am, or indeed have been, working for Air Atlanta. And me residing in Sweden, should make me geographicly close to iceland, sunshine, Aberdeen is closer.

411A, 747Classic, Phil Squares and others,
My post was written rather late at night, not that this is an excuse, but still. The point I was trying to make was that you might have a good insight into the managerial/political workings of your OPS department, much more so than your engineers have into the technical department. But if you are worried about the maintenance standards in your company, start by backing up your engineers when they try to do the right thing, I speak from experience when I say that that rarely happens.

747Classic, I know you are an engineer;)

Brgds

Doc

[Phil Squares]

DoctorA300. I really don't have to worry about AAI any more. While I was there, I would back the engineers 1000%. Problem was there was nothing to back! Again, if you were there you know what I mean. If you weren't there, then you really can't comment on it.

I will give you another example. I wrote up one of the freighters shortly after it was delivered. The Litton 72or 92 data base was out of date we're talking years not days or months! You know what the solution was? Update the GPS data base. It took multiple writeups before the database was updated. It's not a matter of backing up the engineers, it's a matter of doing what's right. No more, no less

[DoctorA300]

Phil,
You are right, I have never worked for AAI, so I can't comment on that company.

My comments in the previous post was not so much directed at what was being said about AAI, more about pilots commenting on maintenance in general.

Sorry about the "profecional aviator" comment, it was not meant to insult you personally, I get a bit strung out about the various capt. Huff'nPuff's I have come across over the last 25 years. As a licensed engineer I am getting more and more p1ssed off, having to deal with these individuals that seem to be a fountain of knowledge and insight, as long as they don't have to put it writing or otherwise be held accountable for their opinions.

The exable you gave with the Litton database, I am sorry to say I have experienced before, on a very large British carrier, things like this often happen due to segregation of trades, like the English, Australian, Irish and Icelandic do.

It might seem strange to you, but I have come across more than a dozen A/C guys that would not know what an FMC roughly does or an IRU for that matter.

In Iceland it is common practice for the aspiring aircraft engineers to go to the US, get employed in an aircraft maintenance outfit a study for their AP license, upon returning to Iceland they can then directly convert that to an Icelandic ICAO class II.

Brgds

Doc

[lexxie747]

since when does a litton 72 have adatabase?

[matkat]

During the flight prep, I spoke to some of the maint. people, and found out that the engine mechanic had done the normal borescope check on all the engines the day prior, and had not replaced one of the access covers correctly on #4.
This would normally be picked up by the Indepentant Inspection following, but, since the lead mechanic was back at the hotel, he did his own independant inspection, and signed everything up tight!

FYI when I worked for AAI as a certifying engineer this also happened.at that time there was no requirement for a borescope plug to have an independent inspection further more when It happened when I was there(in Madrid)it was the RR borescope instructor who left it off,so is that AAIs fault? I think not and neither did anyone else.I worked for AAI for a total of 4 years and can say the maintenance guys(many who I am still in contact with)are first rate.
matkat

[Green Guard]

Well well, so far........
It looks like this accident has nothing to do with any maintanance!
Sorry 411A,------ a.h.

Doctor 300.
I don't believe your temper is there all the time...
OK I am sorry to suggest you are from AAI.
But,
may I ask you here to give some more light according to your own view on operation on "ANY aircraft by Flight Crew"?

Unless you are still scared
that I would shoot you down like the parrot.

[Earl]

I just overheard a rumour, and I really hope I am wrong about this or recieved bad information .
Upon inspection of another aircraft in which maintanence was performed by LH they found 4 brakes to be capped off in which the MEL only allows two.
Also no log book writeups were to be found concerning this aircraft with the capped 4 brakes.
Like I stated I hope I am wrong but this is what we are hearing.
If true its sad that a major airline has to stoop to these levels of hiding and allowing aircraft to operate against the MEL.
I have heard some say that if you ground an aircraft then you really dont know the aircraft.
Everyone can read, if the MEL says NO then it means NO!
If allowed to operate with inoperative equipment then a procedure or guidance is given, in no way can you ever make this up on your own stating that you know the aircraft and its allowed!
I read a while back some one posted that everyone thinks they are smarter than Mr. Boeing and the DDPG.
If we dont do this then we will lose the contract!
Better a contract lost than a aircraft hull lost and multiple deaths.
Collateral damage is not allowed in this industry!
We all operate by the MEL and the SOP'S.
These standards are established, Once we exceed these standards we create an new standard, before long we have no standards at all.

[Whiskery]

If true its sad that a major airline has to stoop to these levels of hiding and allowing aircraft to operate against the MEL.


Welcome to the real world Earl !

[Earl]

I would hate for an accident or incident to happen knowingly that I operated incorrectly.
Not only would my license be gone after the investigation but some of these third world countries put people in prison for this whenever injuries or deaths are involved.
The worst part would be knowing that I was responsible for any loss of life due to my actions, or lack of actions. yes you can fly around for many legs with this type of operation.
But all it takes is one little thing or a combination of things combined together, then you become the blame.
Best not to let yourself get in this position to begin with.
Could you imagine if this plane was loaded with 472 passengers and a fire after the rejected take off and overrun?
What if your family was on board?

[Whiskery]

Frightening isn't it Earl - much safer being a Bank Clerk or a Librarian. ;)

[hobie]

Emotion and flying .... bad combination :(

[411A]

Hmmm, gotta admit, with Whiskery's demonstrated attitude, surely it can be no wonder that AAI has the problems demonstrated so aptly at SHJ not long ago.

You have to pay the piper at some point, and it looks like AAI is rapidly closing in, with the referenced poster above at the helm.

Cowboys don't last forever, especially in airline ops.

[Whiskery]

hobie you got it in one - emotions and flying don't mix :ok:

[AAIGUY]

Cowboys getting fired from here everyday. It may suck in many ways...but AAI is cleaning up its act. Just ask a certain German Capt. who was termitated by his FO/FE & a deadheading FE before he got to his hotel.

No room for bull!!!!! anymore..

[doubleu-anker]

Oh really.

I wander if the Captain was informed, the rest of the crew weren't that happy with his performance on his last flight with AAI? Or was it a knife between the shoulder blades?

Just curious that's all.

[AAIGUY]

AS I undestand it, I wasn't there. He was indeed informed and a fist fight of sorts ensued after the aircraft was shut down and checklist completed. No knives in back.

[callout]

How about if we just wait till the facts are presented before we pass judgement on who is to blame. I know there's a couple of you out there who wasn't asked to come back to AAI and you're bitter. I also know that you don't know what's happening with the airline now because you've been away for a long time. Let's just wait and see what was the cause of this accident before we jump to who done what and who is to blame.

[ironbutt57]

look callout n others...this a RUMOURS network...idle pilots on precious days off speculating about what might have been...some more factual than others...the facts will speak for themselves...in due time...so let the rumour mongers and speculators entertain themselves.......

[doubleu-anker]

ironbutt57

I beg your pardon.

"rumour mongers and speculators"?

How dare you even suggest that this site is not the exclusive domain of professional aviators and their valuable opinions. The authors of some of the posts on this thread are indeed aviators of high and long standing, myself included.:}

[Liffy]

aviators of high and long standing""......

Just how high would that be?????

[ScootCargoOps]

I can confirm AAI engineering is the biggest bunch of cowboys I’ve seen and heard of.

Engineers - would you sign off an a/c with a engine vibration and tell the crew if you don't feel happy when they get to the runway they can bring it back to stand or take the a/c to ??? (1.2hrs flt) with the vibration?

[Gigarangefred]

Being an ex employee for Air Atlanta it's not much of a shock this occured.
I sit on the sidelines reading the post, I finally had to say something.
They were overdue!
I manage to stay in touch with a few current pilots with the company, I understand the coverups and violations have increased to dangerous levels of operations.
How continued operations as this gets by is simply amazing.
It won't suprise me that this will be swept under the rug with the rest.
I'm not a disgruntled old employee, just estatic to be away from the crap.
Cowboy operations are over.

[catchup]

I don't hope, above mentioned developements reflects the future of commercial aviation.

regards

[ScootCargoOps]

MH (Malaysia Airlines - MASkargo) leases 6 or 7 AAI 747-2F and I’ve heard about 3 of those aircraft have been AOG in the last 4 days, seems the aircraft are starting to show that the lack of proper maintenance is finally telling its tail.

[411A]

OTOH, Backtrack, a few seem to be in agreement regarding AAI's ah...engineering, according to the last few comments.
Me thinks the CAA was on the right track after all in '98.

And as for Girona, well lets see... the Commander departed with only 15 minutes extra fuel, into an area of very active weather, where even the selected nearby alternates were affected, then decided to make an approach with a thunderstom nearby and, couldn't make up his mind whether he or the co-pilot was to fly the approach, and oh yes, crashed a perfectly serviceable aeroplane.

Simply a bad decision day for that guy, so yes, clown about wraps it up.
And, with his prior experience, the outcome should have been much better, if only he had used a little common sense, and taken a bit more fuel, so that he would not have painted himself right and properly into a corner.

Folks who steam around with absolute minimum fuel will sooner or later find themselves up the creek without a paddle, with no good choices remaining.
The accident statistics are full of examples, if only folks would pay attention.
But, unfortunately the Girona Commander won't be the last to find himself in this situation, especially if companies have a record of keeping track of folks who take plog fuel, and telling 'em...'oh, good show', and constantly calling in others who are more prudent in their fuel decisions.

[Earl]

For those that may disagree.
Look at all the post and complaints about the pay issues, violations, threats from the company.
Are we all disgruntled employees?
Some still work there.
Is there any other airline that has all these complaints listed on pprune?
Every company has problems.
This one is really got some big ones.

[Whiskery]

So are we all still coming 'round to your place for Christmas Earl ? :confused:

[Green Guard]

Yeah, of course,
but remember what Earl said,
you must bring
the whole of your family. !

[Earl]

Sure, bring the whole lot.
Family, Dog , Cat, Reindeer, Camel.

[Earl]

I guess I really unloaded last night, but this was building up for a long time.
Their are many crew members at AAI that want and are willing to do a good job and try to do so.
Upper management and crew planning managment individuals prevent this.
Ground enginering try to do the best they can, but as I seen is KUL last year they are hampered also, parts availability management pushing the aircraft etc.
Then they have the new contract guy, trying to cut pay even further.
Then trying to get us to believe a 20 percent reduction in pay with days off was in our best interest.
Was born at night,,, but not last night!
I said any AAI crew were welcome in my home this year in KSA for Christmas.
My invitation is still valid.
My complaints is not with the crew or ground engineering, just managment and the methods in which they operate.

[Whiskery]

My complaints is not with the crew or ground engineering, just managment and the methods in which they operate.


Phheeewww.................that's a relief. :ok:

[doubleu-anker]

411A

Couldn't agree more with your coments as regards to minimun fuel.

I have always maintaned the point of view that, if I am "called in" and given a hard time for carrying extra fuel, that is the day I leave. Period.

Often the legal minimum F/P fuel required is not enough. In parts of the "third world", very often it isn't enough.

The only time one has too much fuel, is when there is a fire.

[ironbutt57]

Hear-Hear!!! as one crew recently found out!!! especially given the complete lack of current weather reports, and atc co-operation when one is diverting to alternate...:mad: :mad:

[Green Guard]

Everybody can be wise enough
to judge the fuel load after Landing,

or fill 'er up to maximum befere the flight.

So much about the fuel.

But we still miss some details about the subject.
Apparently the aircraft was in good shape,
and during some kind of a fistfight
Captain rejected the takeoff
and subsequently was fired by F/O ?!

Earl decided not to come back.

Whiskery is phheeewwwing around....

I am sorry but there is still lot of confusion.

[Whiskery]

GG - Earl is getting Xmas Drinks organised so leave him alone ! ;)

[matkat]

Earl,I have read all Your posts on this thread and Man You really talk sense,it would appear By some of Your posts that many people on the thread know who You are unfortunately I do not,I am also an ex-employee but once disgruntled but now just saddened by what is going on I think we have probably met before I was in maintenance in Madrid 1999-2001,I have heard of the new maintenance contract and I believe that Technicians were giving different gradings well it seems that all the "Fish" techs got upgrade and the "Non Fish" did not(surprise surprise)I am seriously surprised that AAI have any "Nons" still working for them by the obvious racial discrimination that has always been rife within them and I also remember the flight crew discrimination whereas the "Fish" flight crew would get paid time of whilst others would not,surprised they have not been taken to court yet but suspect it is only a matter of time.
matkat

[Earl]

Thanks Matkat,
I am not interested in taking AAI to court, I am sure that one day soon someone will if things do not change. Worst even if government agencies get involved.
I just wanted to state that you are not allowed to operate in this manner.
But as Green Gaurd stated, what really caused this overun?
Every operater around is interested.
In no way to say, I told you so., But we all learn from others mistakes.
What procedures, notes, cautions or warnings can be added to prevent this from happening again.
This is why we have so many changes to the FOM.
This is also why this information is released and used by other airlines in training.
Perfectly good aircraft do not run off the runway by themselves.
Either a malfuntion happened or proper procedure was not followed.
Not pointing any fingers here, but why was their no slide rafts deployed at the RH upper deck door?
The only 2 doors shown open in the pics was the overhead escapehatch and the RH upper deck.
No escape reels were in view.
No slides seen on the RH upper deck.
No matter what caused this, I dont see how the crew got out following procedure.
Did they not think this was serious enough to evacuate?
Perhaps these pics are after the escape devices have been removed.

[Classic Flyer]

I fly for Air Atlanta. We are "highly discouraged" to write up anything that may ground the airplane. It is clear we may be invited to take unrequested time off if we do write up maintenance items.

Also, taking extra fuel over flight plan is highly discouraged.

But there are some really good people in the cockpit. A shame we have to put up with this crap.

[18-Wheeler]

I fly for Air Atlanta. We are "highly discouraged" to write up anything that may ground the airplane. It is clear we may be invited to take unrequested time off if we do write up maintenance items.

Also, taking extra fuel over flight plan is highly discouraged.

That is a lie.

There is a company memo requiring the crews to add items to the logbook.
I have been with the company over four years and have never even been hinted at to getting time off for not taking a US plane.
We are also allowed to take fuel at our discression, but the Captain must be able to justify it. For the Malaysian contract with up to two tonnes extra not explanation is required.

All this is in the books.

[Phil Squares]

18-Wheeler,

I beg to differ. I can remember a Hajj 3 years ago, where there was a Capt sent home during the first half for not taking a plane.

Perhaps things are different now. I don't know. I've been gone for quite a while and really can't tell you how relieved I am to be out of AAI. My big priblem was there was an underlying current to take any shortcuts. Unless there has been a dramatic change in philosophy, I don't see how AAI could change. With the management staff and their "rock head" attitudes it would be pretty tough.

I agree with Classic Flyer 1000% about the calibre of the flight crews. However, too many times have I seen the flight crews going the "extra mile" or more like 10 miles only to see the company hang them out to dry. It's a one way street.

[AAIGUY]

Not sure who is being pressured to not write things up. We filled out 4 pages worth of snags the other day. I think if don;t write it up your doing a disservice to all of us.

Snag, snag , snag..Write it all up.

[Earl]

Any news yet in a prelimimary report as to what caused this overrun?

[LuckandNeat]

Somthing like this may have already been posted about this incident but I have been talking to a ground engineer about the incident and he has been out there to asses the damage and reckons it was a blow out on both front tyres just as the aircraft was reaching V1.

The aircraft then lost steering and ended up running off the runway, all the undercarriage then collapsed and the pilots were able to escape unhurt.

The plane is a write off and they were if not already planning on cutting the plane into six piece's and then scrapping it ... After all the servicable goodes were salvaged !

This is what I have been told, anyone else herd any diffrent ?



:ok:

[GlueBall]

Word from people in the know at SHJ is that one of the four MLG trucks had disintegrated during the roll; subsequent reduced braking capability had precluded making a full stop on the runway. It was said that the very experienced commander was actually ex LH, and that he was flying a very familiar ex LH freighter, and that the jet had in fact been maintained by LH. :ooh:

[Airguitar]

OK.. Enough of the speculation and rumour.. Even though I know you all thrive on the stuff..

1) Very close to v1 the R/H body gear had a massive failure of at least 2 tyres. The whole hydraulic system was wiped out by the resulting flying rubber and debris. All braking on that gear was ineffective. The extent of the damage was only fully understood after the accident.
2) The Captain is indeed a German, Very experienced, was a training Captain with another respected airline (Not Lfthansa).
3) The crew CHOSE to take the airplane off the runway to avoid collision with the runway lights which would have certainly killed them.
4) They chose not to deploy the escape slide because the proximity of the ILS hut would have either punctured the slide, or prevented it from reaching the ground, rendering it useless in either case.
5) All crew members licences have been returned to them by the UAE investigation comittee and are all back on duty.
6) The airplane was in perfect condition prior to the flight, including the tyres. There were certainly no deactivated brakes or other defects as implied by some people on this forum. (Probably they wouldn't know what a deactivated brake looks like, even if it rolled over them, anyhow) Maintenance is done by Lufthansa Technik.

How do I know all this??? Please remember, all the crew members walked away from this one unhurt...

[acmi48]

f.o.d on the runway is the most probable cause according to my AAIC friends. remember one time in BAH seeing a team of people picking up all kinds of muck down the runway on the morning walk about

[Earl]

With suspected blown tires and a quick scan of the engine instruments it is probably better to continue the takeoff if you are high speed and close to V1.
In this case it sounds as they had lost 25% of the available brakes.
Making the V1 speed useless.
Judgement call really.
One day you are the windshield, then the next you are the bug.

[punkalouver]

Accident report is out.

http://www.rnf.is/media/skyrslur-2004/Report_Air_Atlanta_-_Final.pdf

It appears that a tire(wheel failure) blew at low speed on the takeoff roll. There was a couple of thump sound then flapping like noises heard on the FD 7 seconds before V1. The captain thought this to be because of a rough runway(is that runway rough?). The aircraft was very heavily loaded.

ATC noticed smoke and transmitted this to the flight :“and Lufthansa there was a bang and you’ve got smoke coming on the right hand side”. This transmission was at the same time as the V1 call. The captain thought he heard the word fire from ATC and with visions of the Concorde crash flashing through his mind, he rejected the takeoff which was initiated 3 knots above V1.

A wheel rim had failed. Apparently wheels can be cooled with a water mist but the maintenance has been pouring water on hot wheels at some point which is a no-no. Also, a service bulletin had recommended retiring that particular wheel 4 years earlier.

[helldog]

Hope the crew stood in front of the aircraft and had a photo taken for the scrapbook. And hope they had a few cold beers after. It's not everyday your wreck a jumbo after all:ok:

[punkalouver]

Yes, but didn't see it posted anywhere. Sorry, if it already was. Seemed like this thread about the accident was a good place to put it. Will continue to do similar in the future.

[GlueBall]

It doesn't matter which operator or which country; no matter how much recurrent sim training and CRM has been given and will be given; there will always be the select group of captains, experienced and non experienced, who get spooked and can't keep their paws off the thrust levers after V1. These folks either have a personality disorder, or are dumb or just plain stupid. :eek:

[18-Wheeler]

These folks either have a personality disorder, or are dumb or just plain stupid.

It's called being human. It takes all kinds.
We'd all like to think that we'd perform perfectly in a real emergency, but it's not always the case.