50 hours dual, 8 hours solo?!!!!!!!!!

[Cypher]

anyone got any clues what to do with particular students, who can't seem to fly the aircraft straight and level after some extraordinary amount of dual time? What do you do?!!! Surely it can't be time to give up yet, right? Anyone know what how to correct the problem?

[RVR800]

I had a fifty something lady with such a problem - she now has her PPL.

She seemed to make things far more complicated than they needed to be.

Keep it simple.

She talked too much - that didn't help - much of it was negative self-talk relating to women pilots which I re-programmed out of her

Essentially its a confidence thing

[DB6]

Might be worth getting someone else to fly with them. Doen't always work but sometimes subtly different methods of teaching can pay dividends. I don't worry too much about straight and level so long as they don't get lost or crash the thing when they try and land. Finesse can come later (assuming they can get through the test). Oh yeah, and make sure you cover up the artificial horizon in case they're trying to fly using it instead of the real one.

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 13 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 13 March 2001).]

[DogsBolx]

Pretend to be asleep :)

[Capt Homesick]

The really mean way is to get a watch with an altimeter in it, turn on the recording function, and wait. Then, after she's flown straight and level for a while, you can say- eg, you're now 150 feet higher than you started. However, you've actually climbed and descended 2000 feet, and at one point you were 500 feet above this point! Might not help the student, but it's fun!
OK, seriously now, I would suggest you look quite hard at trimming. It's so drummed into us by this stage, it's easy to overlook in a stude. Is she really trimming the aeroplane, or just seeming to? Do the hands-off test.
If this is something you've already looked at, I'll wind my neck back in.... :)

[Need4speed]

I agree with DB6.

[chicken6]

I agree with RVR800 and also agree with DB6 re: the AH but would ask another question - how many instructors has this person been through? What was the continuity like? I met some people last week who were lost partly because they had never flown with the same instructor more than three times in a row (>60 hrs total, <10hrs PIC) and nobody ever really got to know them enough to trust them on their own. Nobody had ever been able to get inside their head and 'see' what the problem was well enough to sort it out. In your situation this might not be the case, but I thought I'd throw it in just to be sure.

[SpeedBird22]

I might have missed something here, but is there actually anything wrong with having 50 hours dual and 8 solo??

Were you implying that it is only 'bad' if the student still can't manage straight and level after that amount of time??

I'm a student pilot myself with about 45 hours dual and three PIC - and I don't see this as being a particular problem. Quite a few hours were wasted at the beginning of the course due to wx abandoned flights, instructor changes etc...

Whilst I'm at it, would anyone be able to tell me the average number of hours a student has on completion of the PPL?? Passing the 45 hours mark I was a bit depressed that I hadn't done it in minimum hours so I'd be interested to hear how long other take.

Happy Flying,

:) :) SpeedBird22 :) :)

[Jolly Tall]

I intended to acquire my PPL in the minumum time (45hrs under the current JAR-FCL), and actually did it in about 48hrs. However, I did all my training in a Class D environment, and there are several scenarios in which I am less than confident, eg standard overhead joins at uncontrolled airfields, landing on grass-strips, and cross-wind landings. I will undoubtedly request additional sessions with an instructor to refine these skills.

The point is, do not worry unduly about the number of hours it takes - worry about being sufficiently competent to be able to handle any situation you may be faced with when eventually qualified to fly solo on your own ticket.

[TooHotToFly]

Average is between 55 and 65 hours I believe.

[DB6]

Speedbird 22, nothing wrong at all, it's the straight & level bit that is the concern. That said, if you've done 45 hours dual, a bit more solo time might be in order, if your instructor is happy of course. Not many do it in 45 hours but then again I've one student who will probably do it in 46-48 hours including a night qualfication.

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 17 March 2001).]

[The Flying I]

Cipher - S&L - have you tried covering the instrument panel with your rolled up chart, and only removing it for a few seconds every minute or so? She might instrument chasing rather than 'burning in' references.

[Foyl]

Excuse me Flying I, nobody mentioned gender here except for RVR, and he only introduced it because he had an example.

[Lawyerboy]

Have to confess, it's a particular problem of mine - I've spent (and continue to spend) far too much time looking in and not enough looking out. Consequently I'm far too concerned (I think) with what my VSI is telling me and am still not quite confident enough, even after some 32 hours, to rely entirely on what the horizon is telling me. Don't know if it's a common problem, and with me I think it's because I don't get to fly all that often, but I agree with The Flying I: cover up the instruments.

[jester41]

Its a fact of life not everyone is capable of winning a triathlon no matter how much they are trained. I never had the guts to tell them though. Just keep at it and try to be patient.

[AMS]

Hi there,

I went over to the US to do my PPL, and I was hit by bad weather and maint. I lost about 13 days. I went solo.But I had a hairy experience. This ruffled up my confidence. I thus decided that its better to have the hours required for myself to feel confident in order to tackle all types of scenarios. I am now in a position where I ahve to return with out completion..either to finish it of back in the UK or I shall return back to the US.

Would I retain alot orit would be possibleto pick it all up in a 1-2 hrs?? Please could some one give me some advise on this.

Thanks

AMS

[Speedbird252]

Straight and levl can be a real thorn in the side of a student and an instructor. But as many have said, make sure they arent chasing the instruments. Postion, Hold, Trim, check the vsi.....repeat....etc.

Not an easy one!

Ive never instructed, but I take my hat off to all of you that do - you are all worth much more money.

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If it aint a Boeing, then, erm, its probably an Airbus

[AMEX]

As Captain Homesick put it, I feel that trim, trim, trim is important. After all, if the A/C is trimmed properly, it won't go anywhere else but where assigned to go. Saying that, I had great difficulties in teaching doctors to fly as they thought far too much so the natural feeling wasn't there.

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[Ultralights]

I managed to solo in 8 hrs, got the PPL in 30. I had a ex-millitary flyer for an instructor, who had a policy of never fly with a working panel. every flight after going solo was done with 1 or more of the flight instruments covered, my favourite was doing circuits with the ASI covered. my accuracy in straight and level was done by doing a few hours with a covered VSI, learning to fly level using altitude alone.
Im not sure if this is a military flyer thing but the numerous hours with partial panels has made me a beter pilot i believe.
All this training came to prove itself taking a fellow pilot on a short trip in a jabiru, The jabiru is easily effected by water, and flying in rain tends to stuff up your ASI. all during the flight the ASI showed nothing was wrong, as we approached our destination, we began decending to circuit height, this is when my passenger/co-pilot noticed the ASI hasnt moved, i pulled power back for a few seconds and confirmed a frozen ASI, it was no problem for me as i have flown many hours in this aircraft without an ASI, but my passenger was getting obviously nervous. The approach and landing were textbook, but my passenger/copilot didnt relax or say anything untill we were firmly on the ground and begun to turn off the runway. It is pretty obvious to me he had never flown with a failed instrument, let alone something as important as the ASI.

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Yeah, Zoom Zoom Zoom

[Luke SkyToddler]

We had a cadet back at the old school in NZ that was 46 hours to first solo - even then he rounded out at about 400 feet and stalled the thing the whole way down finals. A 140 hour PPL as I recall. The CFI tried to kick him off the course but the company wouldn't have a bar of it, I think his old man was a major shareholder in the airline. That guy is now flying shiny big tubes around Indonesia.

Moral of the story is, everyone gets there in the end. I don't know your experience levels Cypher, but jobs like this are not for low time instructors. Give the student to the most experienced and patient instructor you can find and keep on trying ... sometimes the penny drops all of a sudden with a change in instructing technique.

[AMS]

Hi ,

Well I had an interesting incident that happened to me..this only quashed my confidence. Although my confidence did come back, but I ran out of time and could not finish of my PPL. I want to finish it off, I may go back to the US school, or I may finish it off here in the UK. Could anyone give me advise on how I can go about finishing of my PPL.

Thanks

AMS

[Whirlybird]

I don't talk much about my early experiences when learning to fly, but it might help some of you. For those who know me, I went for a PPL(A) before I got hooked on the little whirly things. I wasn't a natural pilot, and was never going to be a 40 hour PPL. But I was getting on fine until my first instructor left. The next one took over as I started on circuits, which I found hard. But what I found hardest was that he soon made it clear he didn't know what to do with me. I couldn't seem to get learn to land, and I could tell he was lost as to what to do. Anyway, I finally managed one landing alone, yelled in triumph, and he glared at me and told me he'd come down on me a lot harder from then on. He spent the next half hour picking up on everything which wasn't perfect (a lot). The next circuit he tried to give me a long explanation on final at about 50 ft, I lost concentration, got confused, and he grabbed the controls in obvious anger at the last moment.

That experience just did me in. I lost confidence completely, and developed a total block about landings. After a couple more hours the school gave me another instructor, a much more experienced guy who talked to me a lot, and managed to get out of me (I'd clammed up by then; I didn't really trust anyone) most of what had happened. The main thing was, HE BELIEVED IN ME! He almost got me to first solo after another 10 hours or so, but we had about three false attempts due to my nervousness as a result of all I'd been through by then - I understand it now; I didn't at the time.

Then he left, suddenly http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif I was devastated. I went flying with someone else, but seemed to be getting worse, not better. I KNOW a few instructors thought I'd never make it; I met one a year or so later who expressed amazement that I'd ever got to first solo, let alone got a PPL. Then a finally got a very patient instructor. HE BELIEVED I COULD DO IT! This, I know, was the most important thing. He also had incredible patience. I went solo after something over 40 hours from the start. After that people thought it would be easier, but the nervousness and lack of confidence had become a long term problem, and kept re-surfacing. Richard would just grin and say: "OK, so it looks like we do that exercise again". He didn't make a big deal out of it, and so I could begin to re-learn to relax. He also did everything (including instructing) to the best of his ability, and expected his students to do the same. He didn't give me an easy time, but he wasn't critical, and NEVER GAVE UP ON ME. He also refused to let me accept second best in myself - he was determined that I wasn't just going to be a pilot, but a good one. I was gobsmacked that he thought I could!! I even started to believe it again myself! Overall, I'm extremely grateful to him. He's probably not reading this, since he got an airline job the day after I got my PPL - after nearly 90 hours. I now have about 180 hours f/w, 120 rotary, doing CPL(H) ground exams, planning to do heli instructing. Maybe I can help other peole in similar situations, since I know so well what it's like when things go wrong early in your training, and no-one understands if they haven't been there.

I've never talked about all this stuff in public before; I didn't want to tell the world I almost held the record for hours spent learning to fly and instructors given nervous breakdowns in the process :) But maybe I should...

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[kabz]

Nice one whirly. I thought I'd come back and revisit this forum topic, but I just posted my own version of what you said. The primary difference is that I'm still at 23 or so hours, but the solo checkrides with the senior instructor just took it all the confidence out of me and I've pretty much been a wreck since. I am not sure whether to press on, or whether to just leave it for a while and go try and *have fun* flying gliders or something. HG's were much more fun as there wasn't some bast*rd telling you when to flare etc etc. You just have to feel your way in and get it right. I managed to get a few hours in this when I was based in Nottingham for a while.

[Cypher]

WHOA!!!!
turn your back for a couple of weeks and get flooded by replies!!! cheers all for sharing your experiences...

Luke.... I'm not his instructor.. (thank God), I acutally asked the question on behalf of someone else I work with.. but your comment is noted :)

So everybody does get there in the end? I can recall two instances where this has happened and the flying school has kicked these students out on their butts... I think jester41 has a point, where some people just aren't cut out for it.. but this is mostly the exception, not the rule. It's just where do you draw the line?

What I don't want to see happen is this student milked for all his dosh, and then kicked out..

This particular student.. who I'll call X has been given to our most senior instructor.. so we'll see what happens..

(interesting to note the reference to 'she' as the student... hmmm am I onto something here? :))

[This message has been edited by Cypher (edited 02 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cypher (edited 02 April 2001).]

[pitotheat]

I've been instructing for a few years now. This may not be PC but it has to be said.

In general the people who struggled, taking much longer to go solo/qual X-C/skills tests fell into one or more of the following groups:

Long breaks between lessons.
Did little or no preparation before turning up for a lesson.
Put the blame on others rather than accept that they were not highly gifted pilots and therefore had to work harder at it.
Started lessons, found that it was not really for them but carried on, these same people will eventually get their licence let it lapse and never fly again.

I am sure my generalisation will offend some but I speak as I have found.

[Whirlybird]

pitotheat:

"Long breaks between lessons."

Inevitable for some people - pressures of work and/or lack of money.

"Did little or no preparation before turning up for a lesson."

Again, sometimes lack of time; can also be lack of knowledge of the necessity of doing preparation; even if it's obvious to the instructor it isn't always to the student.

"Put the blame on others rather than accept that they were not highly gifted pilots and therefore had to work harder at it."

May be so, but are you distinguishing them from those who accept they have to work harder at it, are prepared to do so, but feel they're being hindered rather than helped by an instructor who isn't interested in slow learners?

"Started lessons, found that it was not really for them but carried on, these same people will eventually get their licence let it lapse and never fly again."

I don't understnad the mentality of "I've started so I'll finish" either, but people have a right to do that if they want.

"I am sure my generalisation will offend some but I speak as I have found."

Not offended, just concerned that you seem to be saying that only the perfect have any right to be learning to fly. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but if I haven't, and if your attitude is typical, I'm not surprised that kabz and I and others have had problems.



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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[pitotheat]

WB

It should be obvious to anybody trying to acquire a new skill that effort is required from both sides. Some students think that by filling their logbooks with exercise 1 to 19 will automatically lead to a PPL. This is not train number collecting or an exercise in neat writing but a very serious pasttime. Perhaps I was a bit harsh but it came after another day partly wasted by students not doing sound preparation. It seems to me that if you can study a relevant book for an hour the evening before a flying lesson you will be better prepared, your airborne time will be reduced (and thus less expensive) and your instructor will have a bit more respect towards you if you do not get it right first time. I always give full preflight and postflight briefs but if during the briefing stage the student does not know some basic theory and/or cannot remember some of the important points of the previous lesson then I know he/she will struggle in the air wasting their money and both of our time.

As for the point regarding the "i've started so i might as well finish" brigade you are right it is their choise but then they start complaining that they are making little progress.

Try to see it from the instructor perspective they are trying to pass on to you some skills; the more you can do for yourself the more capacity they have to give you tip-top training.

[Whirlybird]

pitotheat,

OK, if a fair number of your students are as you describe them I can see why you feel bitter about it. But now try to see it from the student's point of view.

Many people are led to believe, by flying schools anxious to get their money, that the course is 45 hours and that's it, for virtually everyone. How are they to know otherwise? My first instructor told me, after about 4-5 hours: "You'll make it, if you want to, but you won't do it in 40 hours". I was a bit taken aback, as like everyone I assumed I was going to be good at it, but he wasn't being critical, just realistic, so I accepted it. Do you do anything similar, or do you assume your students know as much about the process of learning to fly as you do?

I used to study before each lesson. It didn't seem to help. Having a bad memory, and not being very technically-minded, I found it hard to understand and remember without the practical experience anyway. And apart from that... well, it just didn't seem to help. Did my instructor know I studied? Possibly not, based on what I did. Do you ask your students what they do between lessons, or do you tend to make assumptions based on their performance?

I'm sorry if I appear to be too hard on instructors. But, you see, I know or have heard of too many people who gave up flying because of poor instruction - and I know enough now to know that's what it was. You have a difficult job, but not THAT difficult; you deal with people individually, not as a group, so is it too much to expect you to get to know your students and modify your teaching methods accordingly? I have discussed most of this with a good friend of mine who's been a flying instructor for around 20 years, and she agrees with most of what I'm saying. Unfortunately she's one of the very few who's instructing because she wants to - and maybe that's the basic problem with the others.

Yes, learning to fly is a serious business. You are dealing with people's hopes and dreams and a fair amount of money, to say nothing of them putting their lives in your hands. You do it for abysmal pay, and I'm not saying it's easy. But I still think you have a responsibility to do it as well as you possibly can. And maybe YOU do, but in my experience that isn't true of a lot of your colleagues.

My apologies for the bitterness - maybe I'll eventually get over it. Read my first post on this topic and maybe, just maybe, you'll understand the reasons.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[This message has been edited by Whirlybird (edited 05 April 2001).]

[kabz]

books ?
reviewing a lesson ?

[pitotheat]

You are right that most (all) flying organisations sell their course on minimum hours. When Joe Public go around their local clubs they will look at the cost of each and more likely choose the cheapest. What my club do is quote in their literature for minimum hours and then explain that most will take more hours stating that frequency of lessons, other commitments, time of year starting, age and ability all have a factor in the final tally of hours. I always tell people that they should budget for a lesson per week if they want to see reasonable progress. That budgetting includes both money and time. I appreciate that when you walk into a club room for the first time enquiring about flying lessons this is rarely mentioned. To get around this people need to do some research, talk to instructors, students and club members. Use sites like this. You are about to invest thousands of pounds would you buy any other service without investigating the matter as fully as you can?

However, it really seems common sense to me that the more you put into something the more you will get out of it. I would say that less than half of the students I meet prepare for the next lesson or even go over the previous lesson. All of the widely sold books on flying lessons are pretty clear and explain things in simple terms. Would you expect to learn a foreign language at night school with just a one hour lesson per week with no other work inbetween. Flying is like a foreign language in the terminology used and the background knowledge required.

My top tips for people embarking on this great activity:

1. Sort out in advance how you will finance your training.

2. Get the backing of those around you so that they can support you.

3. Book a lesson a week (you know that some will be cancelled due to weather).

4. Read up on the lesson you have just completed as soon as you can after that lesson and make notes of things you thought did not go well and questions you may have.

5. The night before your next lesson read up on your next lesson and read the notes you have made from previous ones.

6. Be at the club on time, if you are late the club flying programme will not wait for you, your instructor will have to rush through things and you are therefore not getting maximum value.

7. Insist on a proper brief and debrief from your instructor - remember you can only do that if you have done all of the above.

8. Enjoy your flying!

[This message has been edited by pitotheat (edited 05 April 2001).]

[rho]

Pitotheat ... I could not have put it better myself,,,even from this side of the planet.

To all,

Number 8 in Pitot's list is the most important, there is really only 2 types of people who take up flying. Students who want careers in aviation or those who have taken it up for fun. Either way both types are there to enjoy themselves. If they come away from their lesson without some sort of satisfaction something is wrong. A good instructor should always be aware of the students frame of mind before, during and after the lesson. Remember, we are not just teaching people to fly, we are helping them adapt to a totally new environment, physically and mentally, in and out of the air.

[Flytaff]

To fly straight and level at a given altitude

Use altimeter to estalish given Altitude

keep distance between nose of airplane and visual horizon equal in distance.

To maintain course and wings level make student aim at visual reference straight ahead

To maintain wings level also get the Student to look right and left onto the wing tips and maintain the distance fom the wing tips to the visual horizon the same distance on both sides.

[Sleeve Wing]

Some good advice here, particularly from Pitotheat.
.......and, if all else fails, try 240volts or a banana !!!!

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[talkietm]

The answer seems simple enough:

The latest technology for flying (which is pretty old hat) is to put the instruments outside. A head up display.

Obviously too expensive for a Jabiru or C150, so invest in a poor man's head up display - a white board marker.

Set the aircraft up in S&L, explain why it is S&L, then get them to mark a cross on the windscreen on the horizon, parallel to the horizon, and vertically over reference point. Ensure that they do this sitting at their normal eye height and position.

Cover the instruments and get them to keep the cross on the horizon. Also is the same aimpoint to use on approach and landing.

Will work!!!