Monarch wanted a Monarch to wait. (Merged)

[LTNman]

A Monarch Airlines Airbus was on the ILS at Luton today when the Red Arrows were instructed to pass behind it. The indignant Red Arrows pilot pointed out to ATC that it had been pre arranged that they would fly OVER the airport at a set time as they had an appointment with the Queen. Unhappy ATC man tells Monarch pilot to break off approach. An even unhappier Monarch pilot tells ATC that “ he is a commercial flight”. ATC man tells Monarch pilot that he wasn’t going to argue about it and to break off his approach. Just another day at Luton I guess.

[bagpuss lives]

*fumes quietly in the corner about the Royal family*

[Unwell_Raptor]

Was it the Arrows that I saw flying South over the (northern) M25 at about 2.30 today then?

[Daifly]

Oh c'mon - it was the UK's effort to mark the 100th anniversary of flight - not just for Her Majesty's Pleasure. It was only Monarch after all....

At least we managed to fly our effort (see, Orville and Wilber did have a challenge!)

[Zlin526]

Nice to see the Red Arrows are as arrogant and inflexible as ever!!

Who the :mad: do they think they are?

Where was the RAF C-130 carrying the team's egos and giveaways??

[FlapsOne]

Unwell_Raptor

If it looked like 9 red Hawks I guess it probably was!!!!!!!!

[Duncan McCockiner]

Zlin, your obvious green eyed gealousy has been noted, don't put in an app

[Unwell_Raptor]

Flaps Uno:

Not as daft as it sounds - I was a few miles away, and I saw a tight-looking formation of black dots, which moved out of my view in not many seconds. I had no real idea of height or speed, and I couldn't even see if they were swept wing. So I thought possibly the Arrows, possibly some intrepid rich boys' warbird club.

I hope Her Maj got a better view than I did.

[Zlin526]

Gealousy?? Gealousy??, Never gealous of the flag wavers, old bean!

PS it's spelt wiv a 'J'

[LTNman]

Came in from North to South at 1000ft over Luton at 14.29 heading for the RAF museum at Hendon I believe.

[greatorex]

From Yesterday's NOTAMS:

NAVW: FROM 03/12/17 14:00 TO 03/12/17 14:50 H8414/03
E) AUS (MIL REF) 03-12-0020/4627/AS1
FORMATION FLYPAST BY 9XHAWK ACFT WI 2NM RAD PSN 5135N00014W
(HENDON, N LONDON). THE FORMATION WILL FLY THE FOLLOWING ROUTE:
5318N00033W T/O SCAMPTON 1359
5213N00016W ST NEOTS HOLD 1414
5156N00022W ENTER LUTON CTR 1427
5136N00015W LEAVE LUTON CTR 1428:30
5137N00014W ENTER LONDON CTR 1429:50
5135N00014W HENDON 1430
5135N00009W LEAVE LONDON CTR 1431:50
5318N00033W LAND SCAMPTON 1450
MAX ALTITUDE IN LUTON/LONDON CTR 1500FT. TIMINGS ARE
PLUS/MINUS 3 MINUTES. THIS FLIGHT IS AFFORDED CAT E PRIORITY.
F)SFC G)3000FT AGL

Cheers,

G

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Ahh ... so that's where the 'Reds' went. There we all were at Old Warden, waiting expectantly and they never showed up!

I shouldn't think it was the 'Ex Red', who is now a Monarch training captain, who was flying that 'Bus, then ...

[JW411]

And who presumably didn't bother to read the Notams?

[Engine overtemp]

I no doubt that Monarch read the notams,. Pity the reds obviously didn't read their own as timings were plus or minus 3 minutes and to go behind the commercial jet would have only added about 15s to their flight. It would have left them having to navigate though.

:O

[JW411]

It's easier to move one aeroplane rather than nine. In any event, I would not have planned my flight to arrive at the same time as the Dead Sparrows.

[spekesoftly]

The NOTAM clearly states that the Reds were 'CAT E priority' - end of story.

[hapzim]

Luton's bit of airspace. Once in the London TMA under control of ATC who vector aircraft around the sky, not down to flight deck as to exact timings on approach etc. If the Arrows were planned through and all the agencies were talking to each other, a slightly different speed or heading requirement earlier on for the Monarch would have solved the problem.

The last thing on busy airways anyone needs is bikering, back chat etc . Let the guys do there jobs, all three parties, keep it safe and standard. It's easier to comply than winge. This applies to all us professionals.

:ok:

[angels]

I'm surprised at some of the barbs being flung in the Red Arrows' direction. Why?

They provide a lot of pleasure for people and showcase the flying skills of the pilots in our Royal Air Force.

What am I missing here?

[amanoffewwords]

Out of curiosity, what does Cat E priority mean?


amofw

[kick the tires]

errrm, I guess I should know but, whats cat E priority??

[ghost-rider]

In any event, I would not have planned my flight to arrive at the same time as the Dead Sparrows

It was probably a schedualed flight !!! :rolleyes:

[Max Angle]

Sounds like Luton ATC ( based at LATCC) screwed up, they knew the Reds were coming and should have ensured that the area was clear at that time. A slightly longer vector for the Monarch would have solved the problem I would have thought.

[JW411]

Whether the flight was scheduled (note spelling) or not nor whether it was running on time or not does not change the price of butter one iota.

The Red Arrows were allocated the airspace at that particular time and that's the end of the story.

[Lapsus linguae]

Is this as good as worldwide news gets? Better offload this one to the BBC!

[miss d point]

ehhh, correct me if i'm wrong but an aircraft on final approach has priority over all other traffic !!!
if the airbus had gone around - and something had happened, (most cocked up manouver in flying) me thinks the controller would be looking for another job !
commercial flight plans operate to +/- 3 mins ? i,m sure bucket red 6 or whatever they call themselves could have found something to occupy himself with for 10 sec's !:ok:

[ex-EGLL]

"Flight check aircraft engaged on, or in transit to, time or weather critical calibration flights.

Other flights authorised by the CAA."

ex-egll

[Daysleeper]

Other flights authorised by the CAA."


so does that make them more or less important than 200 taxpayers in 90 tonnes of airbus

[JW411]

Obviously it does otherwise the CAA would not have allocated the airspace in the way that they did.

If you don't like it complain to your MP, the CAA and possibly the Battersea Dogs Home. You could even have a nationwide referendum and ask the public if they would rather watch the Red Arrows or else watch a Monarch Airbus landing at Luton.

I'm sure George Bush caused much greater mayhem during his recent visit but then he didn't go near Luton I suppose.

[kaikohe76]

It might be worth reminding Luton ATC, that Monarch put a damm sight more dosh into the airports Bank Account from landing fees than the Red Arrows do.

[Final 3 Greens]

K76
It might be worth reminding Luton ATC, that Monarch put a damm sight more dosh into the airports Bank Account from landing fees than the Red Arrows do.
It may well be that a suitable credit note is winging it's way to Spotty M right now :D

[Wappy Tupper]

K76

What a great idea - lets all ignore CAA rules, ATC regulations and NOTAMs completely and base the landing priority system on who puts the most amount of money into an airport! Hmmmm, I think I see a flaw in your plan.

[WorkingHard]

Hey you guys (and gals) dont forget the Reds are omnipotent. Not only can they do no wrong but they can even fly their single engined aircraft across London. Now you try and get the CAA to authhorise that for you. By the way the rate at which they have "incidents" with these single engines at the taxpayers expense seems to be greater than the commercial bretheren but they are still exempt. Dont question just keep paying the taxes to keep the egos intact. (edited to add abit) Why would that particular route be chosen knowing that it would potentially conflict with CAT?

[Jerricho]

What this boils down to, and has been highlighted here before (remember the thread reference the Tornado flight over the War Memorial that went over the top of LHR?) is some !!!! who recieves the proposal from the Sparrow's Ops/Planning hasn't got the foggiest of the impact of what is being requested and approves it. It's almost seems that for these "fly-pasts", the dickheads that approve them haven't got the balls to suggest a mutually beneficial solution.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to plan a route that will be benficial to ALL parties involved. This is not a shot at the Sparrows, and yes I realise they were afforded CAT E status, however a simple routing to the east of Luton by 6-8 miles, while affording them the protection of CAS (if that's what they wanted) would allow scheduled stuff inbound to be unaffected. The speed these guys were flying, that displacement would have meant seconds (with a 6 minute window!) Everybody happy!

TC EGLL work CAT B flights on a daily basis (without going into specifics) and 9 times out of 10 if you tell them their intentions will impeed on the flow into LL, they happily take the hint.

[miss d point]

:p
me thinks someone will end up with a horse's head in the bed !!!
:ok:

[Jerricho]

I though these forums were anonymous.......oh yeah, I get it!! ;)

Tell 'em to send it to Canada!

[airhead10]

Newcomer to this site, thought I would throw in my halfpenneth!:D

Came across the thread concerning the rights or otherwise of the Red Arrows Aerobatic team taking priority over an inbound Monarch flight. There were some rather facetious remarks made about the team and it's pilots which I find surprising coming from fellow pilots.

I'm sure that nobody would deny that the pilots of the Red Arrows team are the very best in the profession. The precision and close flying that they exhibit is surely the pinnacle of flying abilities. By that I mean of course "flying" in contrast to "managing" an aircraft. (Not meant to be in any way derogatory to commercial pilots). Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you guys enter the business because you love to fly? Could there be a smidgen of jealousy from those who posted the snide remarks?

As with the majority of open forum sites, (and this is certainly one of the best I have come across), there will be a minority who drag down the level of discussion, nonetheless, I was really surprised at the acrimony directed towards the Arrows.

Before I get lambasted as a non-pilot, I have had a great deal of exposure to the flying fraternity from the fact that my father was a military pilot all his life, both for the R.A.F and other forces. He flew something like 30 types of aircraft and was a flying instructor for many years. He never, ever, tired of the joys of flying, (the only thing that stopped him was being on the receiving end of a mortar attack damaging his legs to such an extent he could no longer manage rudder control). His admiration for the pilots of the Arrows was boundless and always with the utmost respect from one pilot to another who was amongst the very best in the world. I think he would be shocked by the attitude expressed by some people.

Ah well, that's off the chest. Good luck guys and keep safe.

[McBee]

One of the characteristics of this forum and the pilots' community in general is a damned good and constant sense of humour and an ability to give as good as ya get from yer mates.

In that context, calling the Red Arrows pilots a bunch of arrogant b**gers is hardly a facetious remark and no less than you would expect around here.

It does not necessarily imply any lack of respect for their flying abilities, except for the quip about the fact that they can't navigate. That's why they always fly so low, so they can read the road signs!!!;)

[airhead10]

Fair comment.

I do recall some of the banter between various flying factions. My father had a healthy circumspection for rotary wing aircraft, usually referring to them as "a collection of spare parts flying in close formation".

[Vage Rot]

Singleton gives way to a formation - least it did when I went to throttles and rudder school! Don't let that stand in the way of a good sla99ing banter session though! Bl00dy civvies, should load enough fuel for a decent hold, tip your hat and say "after you sir"

:p

[angels]

Well, no-one replied to my earlier post about the animosity towards the Red Arrows. I'm still baffled, but Workinghard seems to sum it all up. Tosser.

All I can say is that the crew that were pissed off by an event that will probably only occur once in their lifetime are tossers as well.

I'm a taxpayer in the UK. There's plenty I don't like paying tax for, but I don't mind subbing the Red Arrows.

Over and out.

[airhead10]

"By the way the rate at which they have "incidents" with these single engines at the taxpayers expense seems to be greater than the commercial bretheren but they are still exempt."

Hmm. Can't recall the last time I saw a flight of 747's in formation, wing tip to wing tip. Nor performing a head on manoeuvre with a barrel roll pull up.
;)

[Jerricho]

Angels, if the question you were looking for an answer to was "Why are the barbs out?" allow me.

Perhaps WorkingHard could have been a little more eloquent about it, but it does seem that there is very little thought that goes into the approval given for the Sparrow (and other) displays low-level in the London TMA. There is a feeling on the ground from ATC that their "omnipotence" stems from an apparent lack of flexibility from NATS ops/planning staff who seem to blindly accept what is proposed. As I posted above, a mutually beneficial solution is always available...............I'm just yet to see it! 1500', passing under the ILS at 8 miles would have been fine. And maybe would have given the Monarch a good show as well?

Sure, I love to see the guys put on a show. It's always great. But the playground around London isn't the biggest. And I was always taught to share.

[Jerricho]

Airhead10,

This has been addressed in the Monarch thread, but I'll digress a little.

There has been much flak thrown about regarding the impact of the Sparrows and other military displays in the past. Most of it stems from the poor comunication between the planners of the events, those approving them and ATC, with the travelling public untimately being the final looser.

As I acknowledged in the Monarch thread, I love the guys! But sometimes the routes that are suggested and approved aren't the most beneficial to ALL involved. Sure, they were afforded CAT E status, no detraction from that. But on this occasion, a simple route displacement by 6-8 miles east wouldn't have caused a problem. And ok, the Monarch had to be broken off final. No mention were there other inbounds holding or departures on the ground that had to be delayed.

You may have missed a fly-by that caused some consternation some months ago that involved a Tornado positioning very close to Heathrow for a practice fly-past of the Runnymeade Memorial. Caused absolute carnage. Started a great debate about fuel ( see here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105582&highlight=heathrow+tornado) ). However, there were other routings available that wouldn't have caused Mr & Mrs SLF to go round and round in the holds for 40 mins.

[angels]

Jerricho - thanks for that.

I apologise for my aggressive second post -- it's the morning after the dealing room piss-up.....

[WorkingHard]

Jerrico - Put much more eloqently than did I so my thanks. Perhaps we might get a response from the "planners" but I somehow doubt it. Do the Reds not consider how they affect others? Sure we all love to see their displays and they are clearly the best in the world but they also have a responsibilty to other aispace users.
As for Angels personal insults, well all I can say is that such comment is a sign of poor knowledge and even poorer command of language but it is a forum where everyone's views may be aired.

[angels]

Workinghard. Are you blind?

I apologise for my aggressive second post -- it's the morning after the dealing room piss-up.....

I still reckon there are some anally retentive folk out there though.

[Jerricho]

WH, come dude, play nice. Angels apologised for being rude!

You do raise an interesting point about do the Reds know the impact of what they submit as their intentions and routing. One could assume they do (but we don't like making assumptions now do we). And what is stopping CAA/NATS guys saying "Well, how about this route?".

Anyone care to comment?

[greatorex]

Airhead10,
Hmm. Can't recall the last time I saw a flight of 747's in formation, wing tip to wing tip. Sounds like a standard day in the airspace around EGLL to me!!! :D ;) :D ;)

Cheers,

G

[WorkingHard]

Angels
My turn to offer apologies. Your post was not in when I last responded. Suitably chastened.

[Paterbrat]

Well the uproar has died down to a few embarrased hurrumphs and voices can now be heard again. Gentlemen have resumed their seats and retired behind their keyboards, peace reigns once more. Pprune is a fascinating and massive collection of opinions and egos, and it has always been fascinating to see how an event of this nature is recieved.
The Red Arrows undoubtedly a collection of extremely fine and professional aviators doing their job, the Monarch was doing his, the ATC played his role there was no disaster, everyone appears to have calmly gone about their business and yet...!!! the uproar it caused, and the noses that appear to have been put out of joint is quite extraordinary.
It appears that no ones actions are immune from edging an elbow severely up someones nostril, how tightly we seem to be packed together, and how intolerant some of us get. The price I suppose one pays for existing in these fun times. At least Wilbur and Orville seem to have had a clear run without disturbing anyones peace.

[Right Way Up]

This incident was completely avoidable. To say everything was fine and worked out is a tad naive. There was an impending conflict between two parties that were both operating at a high workload. The fact there was extended conversation about the situation eroded the margins even more. And anyone who brushes off a go-around as a non-event frankly has no clue. Tell that to the high percentage of passengers who are scared of flying.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Can one presume that the "incident" happened within Class D airspace? If so, maybe the Red Arrows could have taken visual separation on the Monarch.

Of course, not knowing all the details my suggestion could have been completely unworkable.

On the other hand, if the flypast is approved by the Authority and NOTAMed, surely ATC should have sanitised the airspace beforehand. This is exactly what happens within the London (Heathrow) CTR.

PS. I would presume that the Red Arrows may have contributed much to the economy of the UK by providing cheap advertising for the overseas defence industry; how many Hawks have we sold over the last 2 decades?

[RRAAMJET]

Hmmm, I can see both sides of the coin, here...

I understand the comments of those supporting the Monarch operation, especially from the pax point of view. A go-around can be unnerving for the uninitiated, especially if you let the automatics fly it "full-blat". (I've had to go-around once in the 757 at about 1000ft in good wx, due to a malingerer ahead. Instead of full chat push-the-buttons-yeehaa-here-we-go, I used gentle manual power and flying and requested a wide orbit from Denver to reposition myself back on finals - I was aware no-one was behind - got it approved and barely got comments from anyone as they got off. Probably saved a bunch of fuel, too...Now before anyone says "if you knew there was no-one behind why did you get so close to the one ahead?"...he had a minor wobbly on the concrete and wanted to stop for a moment. But I digress...)

However - they really should have read the notams...just a small input into the cruise speed would perhaps have avoided this. Maybe the crew did read them: in that case why not query ATC if the Reds have passed yet? Just a thought; I don't like to pass judgement of a flightdeck I was not on...good operators, the Monarch chaps, so I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

Now, from the Reds point of view, the whole thing is a massive planned operation, and if all the correct paperwork has been put in, and HM or a disabled kiddies hospital is waiting, why should (even a minor) deviation from the plan have to be flown? What's the point of taking the effort to file a notam if there's a likelihood of it being ignored? What's next, someone bumbling through a display? I can see their point, too.

As former Queen's Flight, I was acutely aware of the inconvenience to other aviators we caused, especially if we were late. But that was the rules we had to follow, and we would put in all the correct Purple notams - "...I didn't read read them..." was simply not an excuse. Inconveniencing the taxpayers? You bet. Awful. I used to feel terrible apologising to BA Shuttle drivers, BMA, Manx, or whomever I had to meet in the local airport hotel later. But for that window of time, that was my airspace - I booked it, CAA approved it, you read about it...

Should we inconvenience others, and cost Monarch a great deal of money, including a gear and flap cycle and a hot-section cycle and a bundle of fuel? No....but that's the way it is. Sorry. It happened. (Have to say, though, as RED 1 I think I would have later followed up with a call to Monarch with a "sorry" just as good PR...even though I'm in the right).

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Just another small point (Devil's Advocate). I have personally sat at Northolt watching the Queen sitting on the end of the runway waiting whilst 2 EasyJets get airborne from Luton. (the classic SID conflict).

Bearing in mind the "Royal" flight has been notified and is subject to the same classification system (Heads of State get Cat C), why should the Queen wait for a load of beered-up punters?

Discuss.:ouch: :ouch:

[WorkingHard]

"why should the Queen wait for a load of beered-up punters"

Perhaps she should not but when has cat c or purple airspace been the perogative of the Monarch. Too many sponging hangers on use it to the disgust of most who know the system (or so I hear)

And lest we forget the Reds, along with the remainder of the forces, are there for the benefit of the taxpayers of this country and not in the personal service of anyone.

[RRAAMJET]

"too many sponging hangers-on use it..."

Not to my knowledge, WH, at least, not in my day. The privilege of purple airspace was very strictly controlled to immediate members of the Royal Family and foreign Heads of State. I doubt very much whether the current execs of 32 (The Royal) Sqn, many of whom I know personally as v. good-eggs, have changed that to include supporting cast.

[hanger35]

The idea of an aerobatic team with a history of incidents and crashes flying into one of the densely poulated air traffic regions in the world over one of the most populated regions of Europe scares me. There has been an increasing trend of aircrashes at air displays over the years (Remmeber Ramstein).If displays are to be carried out then they should be over water at least they can only crash into the sea or a boat mast in the case of the 'Red Arrows'. These are delicate times for the avaition industry, if there were to be a accident you can bet the anti airport brigade would have a field day costing the country millions in future revenues.

Finally...

The mention of the queen having to wait for a load of 'beered up punters' and may also add: benifit scrounging, pot smoking, joy riding and work shy. I don't think her family uses Easyjet any how.

[RRAAMJET]

"benefit scrounging, pot-smoking, joy riding..."

You, them, or HM???

Can't remember the last time I saw the Queen drag-racing in an XR "Fwee-i, allwite-mate?"

Long live the revolution in Cheshire....

Can't remember the Reds falling like flies during transit, either. They hit a cable at low-level in Scotland once, ending up in Inverness (and Cathay). Unless they were to convert to carriers, how, prey, do you suggest they operate out of Scampton? And do we then only recruit prospective RAF types from Cross-Channel ferries or topless beaches? Now, there's an idea.... :E

[Jerricho]

On the other hand, if the flypast is approved by the Authority and NOTAMed, surely ATC should have sanitised the airspace beforehand. This is exactly what happens within the London (Heathrow) CTR.

Yes it was NOTAMed. Yes it was in Class D airspace. But, I cannot see any relevance at all comparing this "positioning flight" (which deep deep down it was) to that of a Royal/Ascot flight. As has been flogged already, the routing wasn't the best for ALL airspace users. Simple as that. What it boils down to, why the hell did they plan that way, and why did some pencil pusher say it was alright? (Flogging a dead horse here.....sorry!!!!)

[Paterbrat]

Aaah there, my apologies dear chap, my naiive elbow seemes to have lodged up Right Way Up's aristocratic nasel orifice. I was not aware that I had brushed the affair of as a non-event quite frankly, and since I have spent a large percentage of my life coddling the incipient fears of the back seaters I am well aware of the consequences of a go-around. A quiet reassuring word to the back I have found works wonders, however Right Way Up may well be as nervous an aviator as the handle infers, and one can quite understand that to some, anything out of the ordinary can be a scary experience, oh and it's my impression that all incidents dear fellow are generaly avoidable but they occurr. The 'extended conversation' would seem out of place, and would be my only harrumph. In events such as these, a 'chat' is probably inappropriate, unprofessional, and to my mind what could have been well done without. That the planning on someones part fell down at some point is regrettable, the conflict should not have occurred, it did however, the system worked as intended. Quite rightly the event is being scanned and we will all hopefully learn from it as we all lay into the deceased nag

[Right Way Up]

No apologies required Pater, everyone has an opinion. My comments were based on the general thread. I feel that the authorities never learn from these occurrences. These incidents get brushed under the carpet and everyone says alls well that ends well. Unfortunately next time poor planning could be the start of that dreaded error chain! BTW Pater, I completely agree that a reassuring PA can soothe most passengers nerves. However I am involved in running a nervous passenger program and sometimes no words can make a difference.

[Waldo]

Paterbrat

I cant agree with your statement that

"the system worked as intended"

If the system had worked as intended the Arrows would have done excactly what Monarch did which was to obey ATC instructions. The Arrows may have had the right of way in theory but they should not argue with ATC. If both sides had continued debating who was right a major incident could have occured!

[FEBA]

Can anyone tell me why the Reds have to fly from Scampton to Hendon at 1500 FT? The performance of these little things surely FL280 + would be better, cause less interference and burn less petrol so that we tax payers would get more display for our money!
FEBA

[WorkingHard]

FEBA - you are back to egos, arrogance and maximum exposure the population at large. "look we are the Reds aren't we clever booking all this airspace for ourselves!!!"
Your question is very apt but they do not usually respond such simple questions. I have tried in the past.

[Engine overtemp]

Might have helped all if the coordinates of the transit had been given correctly in the NOTAM!
5136N00015W LEAVE LUTON CTR 1428:30 5137N00014W ENTER LONDON CTR 1429:50 I always thought Luton was north of the London CTR!:O