Cougar.....no more [Archive]

VIKING9

20th May 2003, 01:30

STAGE COACH DRIVER I didn't leave as you mention, I found out that I was no longer on the payroll because the postman delivered a letter to me one Friday morning. Under employment law, the employer is supposed to discuss redundancies with his/her employee before making their decisions and not to be told by the postman !

I have no axe to grind, but it saddened me at the time that so called loyal and professional people, with whom I've known for many years, can turn out to be twisted and down right ugly. How they can get away with the lies and deceit is beyond me. We all know who they are so there is no point in going any further on that subject.

I do feel sorry though for those, like you, who now find themselves out of work but my advice to them and you, is to do what I did. Get another job straight away and put the whole experience behind them. Good people find good jobs because good people will always rise above the ashes and survive. Just like I have.

Maybe now others will come out with the truth about Cougar Leasing and the so called "loyalty" from it's owner. I for one don't care that the company has closed or is closing. I do however, as mentioned above, care for those who are good decent people who will now have to pick up the pieces and start again.

major1 I wouldn't hold out too much, too many lies means not too many aircraft. MD11's, B737's, B747's, L1011's and oh, to all the ex cabin crew, yes, you were lied to also.

Max Pointers

20th May 2003, 02:28

I do not think the engines will be used for a 707 conversion, it would not be viable, the best conversion for old 707s these days is to non stick frying pans. As an ex 707 jock when the president of the US of A stopped flying in one I took the hint!

I think the most likely scenario is that someone owes someone else some money, but that is no comfort to the crews about to be laid off.

I hope the crews at Cougar can recover from this.

**MM**

20th May 2003, 03:05

Apparently the engines are destined for the US military.

BF Goodrich had a clause in the engine lease agreement allowing them to give Cougar 5 days notice to return the engines.

If the military were desperate for the engines, BF G could name their price. As long as the figure was more than what Cougar were paying, they're bound to take 'em back and watch even more money roll in than before.

I've no idea which aircraft they would need them for, maybe KC135's if they've been blatting around the Gulf at full chat?!

Viking9 - Private message coming your way....

major1

20th May 2003, 04:30

I think most of the KC135's were converted to CFM's.
Does not make sense. Perhaps 411A knows?

3000psi

20th May 2003, 06:02

M M
Do you buy that ?!?!

Who on earth!!! would run a business with a clause like that on lease agreement ?
MAX, thanks for your consideration, I' m dreading it, but your scenario may well be the right one ,
Anyway......the good thing with the non-stick frying pans they dont have to be : RVSM, RNAV,CAT-2,stage-3 compliant they dont even have an MEL !!!

Chillwinston

20th May 2003, 17:12

Viking9

"I do feel sorry though for those, like you, who now find themselves out of work but my advice to them and you, is to do what I did."

You didnt do anything, you were sacked by post according to your own admission!

Have sat and read your bashing for long enough and yes I dont know who you are or your history but Ive read enough people reminding you not to be so single minded and resentful, so please take the hint and lets support these unfortunate chaps who through no fault of their own are now seeking gainful employment.

As a penalty for your continous bashing why not start a thread that shows you have a heart.

For the record, some of the information you place is informative and intresting but please take heed and have a change of heart

arni1072

20th May 2003, 18:37

Just heard on the grapevine that ACL have got the ex TNT/Cougar contract. For quite a while apparently.....

**MM**

20th May 2003, 18:45

300psi - You'll notice that I started my post with "apparently". I wouldn't say either way If I believed it or not. I was just posting another story that I had heard, albeit from a fairly well informed source back at the bat cave!
Everyone can read the rumors and make their own decision.
I personally laugh at each and every rumor about Cougar, otherwise I'd be a gibbering wreck by now!

Opsmonkey

20th May 2003, 21:07

sad to see the cat go. good luck to the the boys and girls

planner

20th May 2003, 22:24

Very sad indeed I worked with a few of the chaps who moved to Cougar when they started up and I must admit those 72`s looked the dogs b**lox with that livery. Very sad to hear this sad news good luck to you all.

VIKING9

20th May 2003, 22:58

Chillwinston get your facts right - I was NOT sacked and have never been in my entire career. I was made redundant along with many others who spoke up for themselves. That aside, I'm glad to not be part of a twisted company.

As for having a heart, I have a big heart and will help anyone who needs to find another job. I found work within 24hrs of being made redundant. Like I said before, good people find work immediately and that's exactly what I did.

My heart is firmly in the right place, I don't have to change my perspective or outlook. As I said, if anyone needs help finding alternative work, they know where to find me.

redcap

21st May 2003, 01:31

How very unintersting !!!!

You still know alot about nothing !

Tell us how you have done well in life ? you must be quite old as the amount of jobs you have held is mounting up !!!

You have ended up an Ops bod for a cargo airline.............Great!!!

Keep clear of Viking9............he will bore you all silly.........and yes he DID get sacked from Cougar......I remember it well, im still laughing now.

ReDcAp

XXXXX

Hogg

21st May 2003, 02:18

Lads, take the slagging somewhere else please............

Some good friends of mine lost their jobs out of this, as well as having forked out for the type rating.

Hope they get jobs soon. All of them.

Hogg

dv8

21st May 2003, 02:27

So sorry to hear of Cougars demise especially for the guys from the NE the second time the rug has been pulled out in less than two years.
Hope something turns up soon.

3000psi

21st May 2003, 02:42

Hold on guys.......No quarrel.... No bashing please !!!
lets spend all that energy to sort out the girls and guys and their family, they need our help more than anything else ,so ...if you know something about jobs or vacant positions let us know PDQ !
Lets use PPRuNe intelligently ....

Max Pointers

21st May 2003, 04:26

3000psi..... I'm with you on that.

Viking 9......Get a life, we all know your feelings about Cougar you don't have to take them to your grave, put it behind you.

I agree about Cougars colour scheme one of the more imaginative ones around, pity it could not put it on both the freighters though.

Could this be a farewell to 727s in Europe

Good luck to all the Cougar staff

VIKING9

21st May 2003, 04:33

redcap still clearly wrong about everything I see, never been sacked and am never likely to be. Also, I've done with the cargo airline - contract over, and have moved on so as HOGG says, take your slagging elsewhere.

Max Pointers I have a life and a good one at that, but thanks for your concern. Maybe you and redcap should get together

Now if you don't mind, this thread is about Cougar and nothing else. As 3000psi said, lets help get the ex Cougar people back into work. As a contract worker myself, I may be able to find work for some of you. Feel free to contact me, those who ACTUALLY know who I am will know where and how to find me.

Ahem, I removed that smilie. CR2

Oops http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/sulkoff.gif

papa noel

21st May 2003, 05:28

What is wrong with everyone this is supposed to be a rumour network not a slanging match! Although I do have to say Viking 9 was not sacked he was made redundant whislt I his immediate manager was on holiday that seemed to be the way the company worked. Also please do not feel sorry for the NE or is it Northern Alliance as it was a very good company until Fossil and Co arrived and ruined it.:E

dv8

21st May 2003, 15:43

3000 psi Private Message on its way

Chillwinston

21st May 2003, 18:20

Humble Pie

appologies for the bashing at a time when we should be assisting and not slagging.

Just cant believe the man gets away with it but hey think others have the right idea about him so no more said.

HalesAndPace

21st May 2003, 20:11

V sorry to hear the bad news - good luck to all concerned, especially the ex-HLA loadies!

Nopax,thanx

21st May 2003, 20:25

major1 to answer your question, the KC-135's are roughly split into CFM and JT3 power, so the engines would be for something else. Like most others here, I will only wish good fortune to those who will be now seeking re-employment. I'll leave it at that.

newswatcher

21st May 2003, 20:30

http://members.lycos.co.uk/airbusman/COUGAR%20727.jpg

Photo courtesy K. Howes

VIKING9

21st May 2003, 21:02

newswatcher this a/c is already in the USA, what happens to the other 2 is anyones guess :confused:

Tarek Nor

21st May 2003, 22:08

The 2 Freighters will be off to the States very soon :{

This cats been sick for a long time, now its time
for the CAA Vet to put it to sleep. Lets face it
the game is over, the staff have been screwed
over again, and the managment (sic) have got
away with it. :mad:

Viking 9 and 3000psi are the lucky ones they have
jobs, or jobs to go to at any rate. :cool:

Good luck to all the staff and crews hope you all
get something better soon. :ok:

Good riddance to the management.

planner

22nd May 2003, 00:21

I was chatting last night to one of the former ops staff who explained how this all came about. It seems to me as though BF Goodrich literally shafted this company, it would be interesting if to hear their side of the story was it just they needed to get their hands on cash fast, or was their more to it. Why send a company that is making money under especially as they had money tied up in it as well

VIKING9

22nd May 2003, 01:45

Cougar - make money. Do the 2 go together ? Maybe.

Tarek Nor Doing very well thank you and you will be soon :ok:

And for all ex Cougar flight crew - click here EU jet (http://www.eujet.com/Vacancies.htm) it may be of some help.

**MM**

23rd May 2003, 01:53

Uninitated as I am (also read ignorant) in these matters...

If BF Goodrich want the engines back, what would Cougar have to do? By flying the aircraft back to the states, does it mean they'll be parked up for sale or scrapping? Who owns the airframe? Would it be financially viable to just take the engines off at SEN and send them back airfreight then scrap the aircraft for spares here? Who pays for the engine transportation/ferry flight?

Just a few questions...I'm sure I'll think of the answers as soon as I've posted!:O

HalesAndPace - Who's the ex-HLA Loadie then?

3000psi

23rd May 2003, 06:33

M M,
Hey zebeedee ! fancy one for the road, to warm you up !!! in memories of those scandinavian snow storms ?!? unfortunately....I' ve got the feeling our airplanes , will turn into non-stick frying pan very soon !!!

Nopax,thanx

23rd May 2003, 20:30

**MM** as the 727 spares market has fallen to less than zero, there's nothing to be made from breaking the aircraft - the donkeys are worth far more than the airframe.

**MM**

24th May 2003, 16:45

3000psi - The Scandihooligan snowstorms were a piece of piss, it was the Belgian ones that blew ice-cold straight through every single layer of clothing you owned! Now that pissed me off! Not even the Hawiian Grass Skirt Dance could warm you up! What made it worse was that there were three guys not 20 feet from you, in shirt sleeves!! Not impressed at all.....

coopervane

24th May 2003, 17:47

People forget the KN has given loads of first time jet jocks a chance to get hours on a jet both with Cougar and Sabre.

If you had to rely on the big boys to give you a chance then there would be a lot fewer chances in the industry.

Sabre and Cougar were unique in their approach and no one could expect it to be run like BA. They made money in a difficult market and gave employment to a great number of people for a good length of time. If you werent happy with your lot when you was there, you did what u did in any job......move on.

I think the Cat will be back in some other guise quite soon so and I wish then luck in their endeavours.

As for the seven twenty seven......well you might think its dead in the water but you cant keep a good plane down....ask Air Contractors and EAT.

Stop yer winging and just be grateful for the good times you had there.

I was and will look back with fond memories!

Coopervane:ok:

trevs99uk

25th May 2003, 01:51

I,ve read that Swiftair have an ex Delta B727 flying from madrid.
Still in Deta colours. Now EC-IMZ.
?? how have they got this one into Europe.

Max Pointers

25th May 2003, 04:26

The ex Delta 727 in Madrid is used to fly deportees out of the country perhaps Cougar got rid of their Pax one too soon!

3000psi

25th May 2003, 19:34

KN has given loads of first time jet jocks a chance to get hours on a jet both with Cougar
Hey coopervane ! can we re-phrase this: like , has " sold " a chance to get hours on jet.......etc ,
to be fair with the "first time jet jocks " they ' ll be grateful to you, coz , as you know a very controversial , and sour subject which ,I think you are very brave to bring on this thread , I can hear the wind of war coming !!!

Pax Vobiscum

Max Pointers

25th May 2003, 20:34

Coopervane
Sorry I did not mean to shout.

That was not a reply to this thread, that was a party political broadcast.
Which party are you representing? :yuk:

Fly_146

27th May 2003, 05:36

So what is happening with the TU204's long term? How long can they hold an AOC with no aircraft of their own?

papa noel

29th May 2003, 18:22

Exactly the question all are asking something is amiss here as other airlines would not get away with it. Maybe time to ask the authorities. Then again they have got away with things that are unbelievable!:O

Exxon-Valdez

29th May 2003, 21:07

Papa Noel and the rest of the executed.

Why are you bothering to pursue anything? It's over the Cat is dead all that is left is a bad smell and that will be gone soon. We all saw it coming and no one is surprised one bit that it died in the circumstances that it did. I dought that the Democratic Dictator will be caring at all, He will be running to the hills of Essex with his well protected bag of money and if he has any sense never set foot in the Aviation Industry again. Cougar was a very interesting adventure for us all and I am sure that we have all gained a lot of experience and scars for our time spent with the Cat.

Good luck to one and all for your Future.

No one realy likes bitter anyway.

Exxon-Futurama
the last laugh is everyones

:D eventually!!

Engineer

29th May 2003, 23:10

Every cloud has a silver lining so the saying goes

For those that had to pay for the 727 rating the demise of the company alleviates the debt burden.

For those that were made redundant, for standing up to the management, by the infamous letter on the doorstep. May be retribution has been served

For those that remained a chance to concentrate their whole energy into finding employment. Good luck

Chris cargo

31st May 2003, 06:24

Tis Life in aviation, either put up or get out,hard call sometimes! Coopervane has been there,as have many others, there's nothing louder than a whine from a jet engine other than aircrew!Still I have sympathy for those who have not been paid, but Goodrich have been the instigaters of the demise of cougar and 2 other airlines. K.N. has put the company in the hands of the administrators for good reasons . Just think He's been stuffed as well.

papa noel

1st June 2003, 02:32

Exxon-Valdez

I do not think we are worried about what happened to Cougar it is just very frustrating that they are still operating when they did so much damage to so many people. And not the MD the sidekick had most to do with it. As for paying for a type rating was that all they paid for or did they buy the job? Also maybe not all clear that Goodrich are at fault!:E

3000psi

1st June 2003, 05:27

By the way 13 days after the 5 days clause, the airplanes are still at SEN...what's wrong with that picture ?!?!

Ride On

2nd June 2003, 04:59

:cool:Exxon-Valdez and Engineer, we all know who you are!!!
Thanks for confirming a couple of lose ends.Do you
guys spend to much time on your mobile phones maybe?

To Papa Noel and 3000 PSI, you guys have seen the Big
Picture for a long time now! Be wise and play your cards
close to your chest, it will all come out in the dirty wash, I
would say later rather than sooner. Lets take our time on
this one Guys!!!!!

Cool 4 Cats!!!

coopervane

3rd June 2003, 05:57

The industry is full of airliners making people pay these days for yer type rating. Easy Jet and Ryanair to name a few. Perhaps Keith got his fingers burned in the Sabre days when some individuals came, reaped then nobbed off rapid style. I am sorry for all you guys who didnt get payed and its hard to be sympathetic when the bank managers is on yer back. But all you can do is try another port in a storm. If you read these forums, there is always someone having a go at de management. Its human nature. And where does it get you being bitter and twisted? You have flown probably one of the great jets of our time when others were button pushing and were longing to have a pole around the skies instead of letting the box of tricks do it for you. You are better pilots for it believe me.

Let Cougar RIP and move on to the next adventure!

Coopervane

3000psi

3rd June 2003, 07:46

Hi coopervane,
you're damm right ," ResquiesCAT in pace " and lets move on to the next adventure.

Pax vobiscum

Exxon-Valdez

3rd June 2003, 21:33

Ride On

I am so scared that you think you know who I am.

Get over it :D

Exxon- Illuminati

Tarek Nor

4th June 2003, 00:23

The B727's were ferried to the USA via SNN
today. I have heard they will be going to
South America and will be flying, so the
rumour about being parted out was just that.

They were not flown by Cougar crews.

3000psi

4th June 2003, 00:25

the cats are gone....for good, I' ve been told.

Ride On

4th June 2003, 01:56

Exxon-Valdez

I am sorry you are so scared, but I was scared when I joined Cougar, to see the likes off yourself working in a professional industry. Maybe when Britian join the EU there will be a Laws brought in to short you out!!!!!

As for getting over it, thanks to the likes of you, I built a bridge in the early days of Cougar and got over it a long time ago!!!!Ameigo!

"Ride on see you"

Cool 4 Cats! :ok:

Ride On

4th June 2003, 03:01

[SIZE=3]

Goodbye to the remaining 2 Top Cats!!!It was a great
Pleasure!!!! ;)

Cool 4 Cats!

inverted-flik

4th June 2003, 14:44

Hey coopervane,
Keepin ok I hope ? does the thought of me & ye drivin' the 'ol' 72 around europe again frighten ya ??? hope so !! cos ya never no, it might just happen very soon, I Kid !!!!!!!!!!;) :ok:

PS: been to Yorky Towers lately ? how is the old B****r ?

Exxon-Valdez

5th June 2003, 21:47

That ride on is a professional.

Professional what?

The Cats and Cat Club are gone for good.

2Rye aye:ok:

VIKING9

5th June 2003, 23:56

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/notworthy.gif

papa noel

6th June 2003, 00:34

:ok: Well at last it does seem as if they have gone and it couldnt have happened to a better managment. Good luck to the good guys and remember you allways go on to something better. As for the little people sincerly hope they are never seen in Aviation again and it will be a better place. RIP:mad:

Ride On

6th June 2003, 01:47

Ex-con Valley,

Or future Con, "Whatever", I enjoyed the private message, now you enjoy the grey hairloss!!!:yuk:

Papa Noel, well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

Cool 4 Cats!:cool:

Stability Jane

8th June 2003, 06:59

Rumour that the Cougar boss planning to re-start with something heavy. Hope that all the ex-employees now paid and that they are offered jobs in the new outfit. Good luck guys. I hope that things work out well for all of you.

Best wishes.

3000psi

8th June 2003, 18:43

Thanks for your best wishes stability jane,

But this will be out of reach for us all....as we are not TUPOLEV type rated and are neither russian or egyptian.....but I' ll love to be paid at least !!!

Miss T Fayed

13th June 2003, 01:08

To All ex Cats,and their families,

No matter how bad things are at the moment and we are all suffering being owed so much money. Be positive and keep working together to get justice.
Many of our husbands had their salary cheques bounced several days before the administration order was granted and this is causing incredible stress and pain.
Keep gathering evidence and knowledge.Eventually if necessary the Serious Fraud Office can be involved.
If you marry a pilot and stay with him long enough you will have seen this all before.Non of these executives seemed very bright from what my xxxxxxx said and their contempt for professional aircrew will be their downfall.
See you in Court !

OneWorld22

13th June 2003, 07:22

I know little about the Cougar situation Miss T Fayed, there are always two sides to every story. Very easy to have a go at management, they're always an easy target. Unless you or your husband have sat at the boardroom table you have no idea about managing an airline and how bloody difficult it is. So a few of you haven't got paid, you're pilots you WILL find other work. How do you think managament of a failed airline will fare? I mean after they've finished with the bankruptcy proceedings, the bankers, the lawyers, creditors, the recievers etc. You think they'll find a job easily? Maybe one or more of the directors gave personal guarantees to the bankers to secure funds, you know what that means when the business closes?

Bottom line is pilots can walk away with no strings attached. Not so easily done for those in charge.

VIKING9

13th June 2003, 14:43

Unless you or your husband have sat at the boardroom table you have no idea about managing an airline and how bloody difficult it is. let me tell you, this airline didn't even have a boardroom AND had no idea themselves how to run an airline. The staff of this so-called small, friendly airline have been well and truly shafted and I for one feel sorry for those who now find themselves with no money and no job thanks to so-called loyalty. I was a lucky one, I was paid.

If this company is thinking of launching again with a different type then I know for sure, questions will be asked and it won't just be people on Pprune who'll be asking them.

3000psi

13th June 2003, 17:48

Bottom line is pilots can walk away with no strings attached. Not so easily done for those in charge. Are you just telling us that you belong to the same manager family with little regard for your staff.....or just winding us up ?!?!
Dear mister "Green Giant " what' s your background ? how many line check ? how many OPC/LPC ? How many 1st class medical ? How many type rating, CRM, SEP, Dangerous good......etc !!! have done in the last 12 months ?!?!
How many exams have you taken to seat at the board ?????
I sure walk away from the airplane with no string attached..... but just like all my colleagues I walk...... on a thigh rope since the first day of my carriere, and its getting worst ... every years thanks to a certain category of " Managers "
We' ve reach the 21st century and its knowledge and expertise we're expecting from the board of directors and
not gambling on the " Kriegspiel " board at our expense

Miss T Fayed

13th June 2003, 18:31

One World, your name is very apt or should it read Lost World.

Your condescending comments are typical of someone who
presumes that anyone who expects ethical behaviour from Management in whatever guise has little understanding of business.
Perhaps, if you are interested you should find some facts about what happened at Cougar before making generalisations.
Business is tough and so is life,but there is a significant difference between balancing the accounts and blatently cheating and lying to loyal employees!
I think from your comments that maybe you are more upset that a mere female should use this forum to voice an opinion.
Perhaps you would be surprised that I am the owner of a small ETHICAL Aviation business as well as being a pilot. So like other women ( eg Barbara Cassani), standing by my my husband and have a little bit of a brain and understanding Aviation business are not necessarily mutually exclusive to people like you!

CargoOne

13th June 2003, 19:15

Those who are always happy to criticize management... If you dont like management of your airline why are you still there? You can quit any time. Or you were happy with management as long as they were paying you salary? Don't you think that airline buncrupcy hits management as it hits you or even worse.

If you are telling that management of this particular airline always been a bunch of idiots who have no clue how to run an airline why you joined them or not left them year ago?

There are always 2 sides of the story.

STAGE COACH DRIVER

13th June 2003, 20:28

I worked for Cougar and as far as I can tell KN is an xxxxxx from Dudley who has no idea of how to run an airline.The few times I have seen him I was less than impressed. Everybody says look what a job he did at Sabre but if he was that clever why didn't he go to Excel with the rest of the management of Sabre or was it they didn't want him.The 2 cargo a/c went to Tucson , its a strange place to send a/c that are urgently needed for another contract. My guess is he wasn't paying his bills which he was fomous for.Yes I am bitter he owes me money !

3000psi

13th June 2003, 20:47

Dear Miss T fayed you're damm right....

cargo one & one world seems to belong to those dinosaur species that drain our economy.....
Mister Freud would be interested with those individuals they both identify themself as " ONE " cargo or world that says a lot ....... no wonder !!!
one should go back to school and start spelling properly "buncrupcy" before addressing us a lecture

Hey Miss T stand firm !

Pax vobiscum

CR2

13th June 2003, 20:51

Ladies & Gents, I detect this thread becoming personal. Discuss/argue the subject by all means, but attack the argument not the person.

Thanks
CR2

CargoOne

13th June 2003, 22:37

Those who like to point spelling or typing mistakes to others should go to language issues discussion forum I think.
International forums assuming non-native english speakers, and before one sending me to school I would like to ask how many languages he knows. English is my 3rd language and I honestly think that for the person who using 5 languages on daily basis my English is quite fluent.

Returning to the topic, no doubt that many of us fail to see/undestand/accept the second side of any story and pretend to use own opinion as the one and only true.

VIKING9

13th June 2003, 23:07

CR2 point taken but these people have been shafted by one person who openly said he would look after them. He's a cxxxx and that's a fact.

3000psi

13th June 2003, 23:53

cargo ONE tout le monde peut se tromper, et je ne suis pas le dernier...
Bist du uberrascht ???das war kein schlecht Idee als ich kann auch Deutsch reden , schreiben und selbtverstandlich sprechen...bist du ja zu frieden ?
no doubt that many of us fail to see/undestand/accept the second side of any story and pretend to use own opinion as the one and only true.

You are right we all do mistake ....one of the reason they send us in to Simulator training on a regular basis,I wish that the same professional approach prevail one day at management level......

Gruss Gott, au revoir, asta pronto, ciao, sayonara, dasvidania, ma salama !

der Auslander

OneWorld22

14th June 2003, 03:23

Well, predictable responses when a few home truths are pointed out. I am just challenging the views of those posters who have obviously descended into comfortable stereotypes and tarred their viewpoints with a very simplistic outlook,

Management = Bad
Aircrew = Good

What a childish way of looking at things. Miss "T" where did I say I don't expect ethics from management? Seeing as you obviously have not read the comments I made, I'll repeat them to you,
FACT: Thare are two sides to every story. Now that might not fit into your comfortable and safe way of looking at the world, but it DOES not make it untrue. Have you been through bankruptcy proceedings? I have seen at close quarters and it is a horrendous experience. The idea that the owners/managers will walk away with a "sackfull of cash" is ludicrous and it is a fact that long after the closure, when pilots are flying for new airlines and have long forgotten about the airline, the owners will still be chased by creditors and lawyers and will still be going through the courts.

I have a foot in both camps, I'm retired a few years, my last job was Captain on the 747-400F, I'm involved with an airline having invested money and taken a postion with them. And after looking at this business close up I can tell you by far the easier option is sitting at FL350 scratching your arse, drinking a coffee and letting the FMC fly the Flight plan. This business is extremly difficult and when times are bad, there comes a point where you can no longer juggle the money to try and fend off creditors. It all comes to a halt.

So Miss T, try and actually read what people write, where did I say I objected to a womans point of view???
I hope you don't conduct your business in the same hysterical manner!

STAGE COACH DRIVER

14th June 2003, 03:50

Oneworld22
By owning running your own airline you have certain resposibilities to the staff you Employ. I know there are Good crew and bad crew but the same must go for management. I think you will find most of the people at Cougar would be happy if they were just paid for the work they have allready done.Yes it would be nice to get notice pay etc but all we want is money we have earned!
So why if it is so difficult being the boss with so much to lose why do you invest your money in airlines?
By the way we never had coffee and whats an FMC these were 727s you know

OneWorld22

14th June 2003, 04:24

Stagecoach, of course there is good and nad managers as there are good and bad aircrew. That's my point, that there are two sides to all this. I'm trying to challenge the conventional view held by so many that it's always management that's at fault and pointing out the realties of what happens when things go wrong. I invested because it was a good investment, still is if the business climate picks up. I don't own the airline or anything, I work in the commercial side. Seeing close up the pressures that exist for the owner though, is a real eye opener, believe me. And that's the risk in business, if it works out you can earn a lot of money, but if it doesn't you're liable to lose everything. That's the part people never focus on of course, they will always look at the successfil businessman and tut-tut the big money they will make, but will never look at the huge amount of failures that occur all the time.

3000psi

14th June 2003, 05:00

I'm trying to challenge the conventional view held by so many
Here we go again....a new lecture
Mister OOOOONNNNEEE world !!!! please give us a break.....!
Ted, I' m gonna walk the dog !!!

coopervane

14th June 2003, 08:54

Lets say you were KN and you put all you got into starting up your own airline. It aint easy, no one says it is, but you put your best foot forwrd and get it up and running. You aint got limitless funds to do it and cash flow has to be stretched to the limits as no one in aviation pays up front.

You provide jobs and training along the way and shoulder the burden when things dont go to plan. Yer customers smile one day and boot you out the next. You have to keep going and you cant please all the geezers all of the time.

As an employee, all you have to worry about is when your next pay cheque is coming. As KN, there must be thousands of things going around your head each night as you put the job to bed.
You might argue that if you make your bed, then you must lie in it but after all that has gone on, do you think that if no one bothered sticking their kneck out, then a lot of people wouldnt have had the experience of a job in aviation?

You joined, you flew and you got payed. When it all went wrong you lost a months salary. If you lost more than that, then perhaps you should have made a move earlier. The ministry of self importance raises it ugly head here when you read these posts. Lots of self opiniated, ego trip people who think the world owes them a favour and just because they have a bit of paper to say they made the effort to be a crew member:it doesnt give you the right to think that you are Gods gift to aviation.

Being shafted by a company is one thing, but shafting a company that has for the main part, done you some service is bang out of order.

Get a life.

Coop

OneWorld22

14th June 2003, 09:35

3000psi, whoever the hell you are, if you represent the standard of pilot that Cougar employed, no wonder the airline went under!

What poor airline are you now pestering for a job? God help them........

Why not try and respond to points made and read other points of view? I hope you don't behave like this in the cockpit.

coopervane, well put.

VIKING9

14th June 2003, 13:16

coopervane As KN, there must be thousands of things going around your head each night as you put the job to bed. yeh, like how much he should keep for himself and stash in the bank and how much NOT to pay his staff......;)

Ride On

14th June 2003, 18:50

Viking 9 and 3000 PSI, Well Said Guys!:E :ok: ;)

Cool 4 Cats:cool:

STAGE COACH DRIVER

15th June 2003, 05:08

Coopervane
Are you a relative of KN or are you sleeping with him as you allways come out with how good he is. If you have not worked for Cougar you would not know what really went on . I can tell you that 99% of the crews ,ops , and grd engs gave 110% to get the airline going and make it a good place to work. I can assure you that KN will not be a porper , If you look at the charge for the company KN put very little in as it go's most of the things were tied to banks.He still has his Motorbike racing team and that can not be cheap

coopervane

15th June 2003, 06:23

No i dont sleep with him.

I worked for Sabre.

He gave me a break for which I will always be grateful.

He had the motor bike team before Cougar.....but I guess u worked that one out as its called SABRE RACING Derrrrrrrrr

And I still stand by what I said.

So if you have moved on to a new airline, why not move on and slag them off. You seem to be good at it.

Coop.

PS I dont have rose coloured glasses, I am just in touch with the real world.

:ok:
PPS And I guess when he starts up again you wont be applying
PPPS. Regarding what KN put in to Cougar ...seem to remember him purchasing November Delta, and the two Miami Air 727s not to mention paying for the Super 27 conversion from the proceeds of the sale of Sabre to Excel. A minor detail.

3000psi

15th June 2003, 08:16

Sorry if I offended you...
3000psi, whoever the hell you are, if you represent the standard of pilot that Cougar employed, no wonder the airline went under!
your approach is way too subjective to be of interest to others, like coopervane what's your point ?!?! what are you trying to tell us both..... your lack of tact and consideration towards my colleagues and their family landed flat on this topic .
as far as the crew standard is concern , yes they were all far better than me..... they did not resign !!!

STAGE COACH DRIVER

15th June 2003, 17:43

Coopervane
Non of the Cougar a/c were owned by KN If you checked the name plates they were all owned by american banks.The engines were owned by BF Goodrich as we know.If you check the accounts for the company you will see KN did invest some money but not a lot by airline standards.
His motorbike racing company is Sabre sports actually eeeerrrrr!
I can understand that if he let you become an F/E with Sabre you are gratefull but I am sure you do not know the facts about Cougar.I'm sure in the past you have not been shafted by an airline but I can tell you when you are you will change your mind.

727Man

15th June 2003, 17:47

3000psi & Miss T Fayed, well said, 3000psi is a first class class pilot you could not ask for a better person and pilot and yes please forgive him with his English its not his first language but speaks three languages that I know of! Thats better than me.

Yes I agree with most of you "posters" except oneworld and coopervane.

It is unfortunate that cougar went down but all who worked there saw the writing on the wall and just hoped that the inevitable would not come. In the end all we want is to be paid what we are owed and earned and move on!
SEE YOU IN COURT!

Ride On

16th June 2003, 00:04

727 MAN - Well Said!

SEE YOU IN COURT!!!

We're all counting the Days Now!

Lets Take our time on this one, one day at a Time!:p

Cool 4 Cats!:cool:

inverted-flik

16th June 2003, 04:29

Hey Coop, stop winding people up and get the pre-flight done on Charlie Alpha, we are off for a pint in Tel-Eviv !!!! Hurry up man.....:) :ok:

Breeze Block

16th June 2003, 05:36

Some very interesting points of view. If only we lived in an ideal world where all motives were altruistic.

Individuals, groups and organizations start businesses for one reason only, TO MAKE MONEY. I'm afraid that you have to "speculate in order to accumulate", and the resources required includes financial funding, workers, capital assets etc., etc., etc. A statement of the obvious, but, BUSINESSES NEED WORKERS AND WORKERS NEED JOBS! QED!

It's also obvious that there are many facets to managing a business. This includes an understanding of the VARIOUS components required to ensure good cash flow. Sorry, but if one feels that the task is too onerous, then as they say, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"!

Effectively management of a business, or the crew on an aircraft, should rely on mutal trust (creditibility). In reality, some overcome this in the short-term by motivating staff with larger than normal wages.

And Coopervane, I agree with you, if you don't like the company then get out. But, unless the "supply and demand" cycle is in your favour, can you you tell me how that can be achieved? Easy to say though, eh?

I understand from one of the Cougar guys that the two areoplanes were contracted to TNT. So, unless TNT reneged on their payments, the company should have had good cash flow. But, what was the cost base? And and and and and ???????????

Guys, is the company in Administrative Receivership, or is it operating under an Administrative Order? Different things. You all need expert legal opinion to determine whether your treatment has adhered to recognised procedure.

I wish you all well, especially in finding new employment. But, don't ever be grateful to any company for simply employing you, because they also NEED you to enable them to function, and so create wealth ( shareholder valve ).

One World, on the face of it, you've made some reasonable points. In my opinion however, they are rather simplistic, and I am sure that you don't apply the same approach in your commercial negotiations. Ultimately though, you completely devalue your contribution with the crass statements in your last post. Okay. it's summer, too many G&Ts, and the wife's nagging. Forgiven.

No, I've never worked for the mentioned NK. I am a Captain with a "major", a qualified accountant, and a Director in a couple of my family (non aviation) businesses. But I am still learning new things every day!

I've just wasted my time with the last post! Thanks Inverted Flik, that Cooper vane is a card!

Nice one! What a winderupper you are Coopervane, you naughty boy! Have one for me when you get there.

Sounds like a really funng guy so have a great stop Inverted Flick.

Happy flying.

VIKING9

16th June 2003, 13:16

I understand from one of the Cougar guys that the two areoplanes were contracted to TNT. So, unless TNT reneged on their payments, the company should have had good cash flow. yes 2 cargo aircraft were flying for TNT and were good payers, or as good as anyone else :bored: As for good cash flow, I suspect it flowed into someone's pocket (or pockets) :mad:

Flightmech

16th June 2003, 14:58

STAGECOACHDRIVER

Talking of the motorcycle racing team, the new "mansion" just down the road on the A120 looks better every day too? Must still be money around somewhere? Say no more.

Breeze Block

16th June 2003, 17:48

If you are involved in a work related incident as an employee there will usually be an investigation to determine the cause.

Likewise, the law enables a similar recourse if there is any suspicion of management wrongdoing. This can involve the DTI, the Serious Fraud Office and even the CAA, to name but a few.

In some circumstances, directors, and managers can also be found personally liable. There are very clear legal responsibilities imposed on directors, and even a Limited company will not afford protection to any violators.

You folks really need the service of a specialist solicitor who can guide you through the necessary procedures for the advancement of your case.

IT IS YOUR LEGAL RIGHT.

Good luck.

coopervane

17th June 2003, 03:48

I,ve been shafted on more than one occasion and still smile.......you should try it.

I admit I dont have Cougar's books to scrutinise but I know that KN did own ND and NI at Sabre as I was involved in engineering at the time. The American 727's were his at one point and I suppose like many others he sold them and leased them back.

I said my piece so good luck with the job hunting as thats what I need at the moment!

Coop

Ride On

17th June 2003, 04:26

Same !!!!e, Same plan for Future Cougar set up, Hey? :yuk:

Cool 4 Cats:cool:

BRISTOLRE

17th June 2003, 19:17

Just saw that Atlantic Airlines CVT are applying to the UK CAA to takeover the management deal of the SU- reg (egyptian regd) TU204F aircraft that fly for TNT.
This was/still is being done under the auspices of Cougar.:8

papa noel

18th June 2003, 05:39

Everyone is having a go at KN .OK he is the ultimate guy to have a go at but what about the little guy who was supposedly in charge of the pilots and their welfare. I hear he is still there and getting paid sounds a bit strange.:ok:

Ride On

18th June 2003, 07:08

Well Papa Noel, there's eight Pages on this thread on Freight Dogs alone!

So I am sure THE WEE MAN, is checking his underwear quite often!Little *****

:mad:

Cool 4 Cats:cool:

VIKING9

18th June 2003, 17:16

papa noel maybe the little guy is learning Egyptian ;)

Exxon-Valdez

18th June 2003, 21:47

Papa Noel

Your biterness is blinding.

You give to much credit to Capt F.
Capt Fossil and Obergrupenfuhrer/Chief petty officer DH probaly had a lot to do with the end of Cougar as well as a few others but only in an indirect and incompetent way.

I think it is safe to say that only one man at Cougar knew what was realy going on and only one man has all the answers.

He has got away with it. Court action etc none of you will get him that way.

It would appear that everyone except KN are losing sleep and money over the demise of Cougar.

If you are that pis*&d at him and want revenge.

You all know where he lives ( you can't miss it).

Go kill his carp!

The end.

EXXon-Valdez

Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

VIKING9

18th June 2003, 22:14

I wouldn't waste my time or energy on any of them. We all know who is to blame but the best thing to do is to move on. What goes around will always come around..........:ok:

3000psi

19th June 2003, 03:38

EXXon valdez,

Macte Animo Generose Puer , Sic Itur Ad Astra !!!j(':suspect:')

Stability Jane

19th June 2003, 20:20

Could this Capt Fossil be the down market Del Boy character from up north? Fan of the Inland Revenue?

Beware of working for Bodge It and Scarper Airlines.

easydoesit

12th September 2003, 01:00

What a shame, no tears shed here though.
Suprised they managed to keep going this long.
Sure to be another buget, bodged airline with the same people to start up soon.
Wonder if the management can get along and run a company properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P!s up ion a brewery comes to mind :D :D :D :D

parcelpuppy

10th October 2003, 20:22

You will all find out very soon!

bacardi walla

10th October 2003, 20:30

parcelpuppy you involved too then ?? God help aviation if this "wee man" is who I think it is.......:mad:

parcelpuppy

11th October 2003, 01:14

bacardi walla,

Not involved. Just 1 of 258 creditors keeping a very close eye on every little detail of this scam.

bacardi walla

11th October 2003, 01:21

parcelpuppy I think my hunch may not be a hunch but an educated correct guess. I too will be watching this very closely. I think I now know where people are coming from on here. I may be new to Pprune but I ain't daft http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/toiletsmilie.gif

parcelpuppy

11th October 2003, 01:30

bacardi walla,
I am glad that you are not daft. Unfortunately I am. I did not get out quick enough. Never mind in the next life I am going to come back as an Administrator.Their scam fee alone would have paid off nearly half of the Cougar employees that got f*****.

bacardi walla

11th October 2003, 01:35

Yes I think SCAM is the right word for what's happening - the 2 threads "cougar no more and Globespan" are very well connected in more ways than one. Maybe someone from the UK CAA would care to add a comment or two :rolleyes:

parcelpuppy

11th October 2003, 02:01

Bacardi walla,

I do not know to which," other side of the bar" you refer, but the bar some of us are working very closely with, is doing a lot of digging and finding out more s*** each day. When the final day of reckoning arrives no body will be immune from adding their comments to the story.

bacardi walla

11th October 2003, 02:07

parcelpuppy rest assured, we are on the same wave length. The trouble is, when the final day of reckoning arrives, will it make a difference what is actually unwrapped? I have friends, good aircrew, who lost their jobs through the demise of Cougar. I appreciate that these things do happen, but it's the way in which it happened that has p155ed me off. They (friends) need answers and deserve those answers. If the so called management team behind Cougar are now behind Globespan then I think the digging needs to be done a bit deeper. :* We await to see what other sh** will be exposed.

Loftie

11th October 2003, 05:23

The system is worked so well by some characters that they seem to get away with one scam or other time after time. Has the little fella given jobs in Globespan to any of the ex Cougar people?

parcelpuppy

19th November 2003, 05:23

It now seems that following positions are:

1) Cougar FOD is now Globespan FOD.
2) Chief Trainer (admin) Cougar is Globespan Chief Pilot.
3) ex Cougar/ Astreus pilot now Chief Trainer (not admin)
4) ex Cougar/ Astreus pilot possible Fleet Manager
5) 2 ex Cougar copilots paying for 737 rating
6) ex Cougar MD now consultant!
7) ex Cougar Eng Director repreived
8) ex Cougar Quality control re employed
9) 2 office staff ex Cougar Re hired.

Job details in Flight and Balpa website.
258 creditors now only 247 so justice is not only being done but seen to be done!

Loftie

19th November 2003, 06:07

Oh dear, here we go again. Are these all mates of the Fossil?

bacardi walla

19th November 2003, 15:17

I'd say the fraud office needs to know about Mr F and soon. I also see they require an Ops Control Manager, but I bet they won't ask the ex Cougar Ops Manager. In fact, I know they won't.

I wonder if Globespan themselves really know the truth. Think a phone call to them is required.

Tenminutes

20th November 2003, 03:49

....and how on earth can the ex Cougar MD now be a consultant for Globespan? This is seriously out of order and I bet Globespan (tour operator) don't actually know the full ins and outs of these ex Cougar people. Outrageous.

Loftie

20th November 2003, 16:53

Best to avoid wee man and his mates like the plague.

papa noel

26th November 2003, 01:10

Please this is very serios be careful of the little man he is dangerous will be speaking to Globespan

Tenminutes

26th November 2003, 01:57

papa noel and what do you think the little man will be saying to Globespan? A pack of lies maybe like he did in a previous life ??? Seems parcel puppy has his finger on the pulse with who is being recruited for the new 737 venture, maybe he should be the one to call Globespan and spill some beans (as a creditor of Cougar who is owed dosh)....:confused:

parcelpuppy

26th November 2003, 04:09

Please be in NO DOUBT 10 minutes.
I am actively doing everything legally possible to help bring these persons to justice.
I am paying the price already by being black balled from several chances of jobs simply because I chose to stand up and be counted.
One of the advantages of being penniless and unemployed and now apparently unemployable, is that I have loads of time to study the law.
Outspan are aware of what has happened and who perpetrated the respective scams.
When the day of reckoning comes I will make damn sure that everyone knows the whole truth.
To be honest with you if I never fly again it would be worth it to see the guilty pay the price.
This industry has been hijacked over recent years by immoral second rate con men while most of us " professional" aircrew just sat back and let it happen.Well now we are paying the price for such apathy.
I dont expect much support and I dont really care what anybody thinks about me . However I will not be disenfranchised by this bunch of bastards.
If they think they knew me before when I got angry, they aint seen nothing yet!

Edited to remove a "c" word. Hogg