FAA Validation of a UK CAA JAA CPL

[tabdy]

I need to fly an N Registered aircraft on a non AOC/PT job out of UK and would be interested to hear from anyone who has recently been down the route of validating their UK CPL with the FAA. If so, can they give me any advice and warn me of any pitfalls or limitations they have discovered.

[OpenCirrus619]

I'm in the final stages of doing the same (FAA PPL off my JAA CPL).

Contact Steve Papi at WillowAir.

It involves:

• Paying the CAA £42 to agree to confirm that you have a licence
• Sending a form to the FAA (no charge) - who will make checks with CAA. Once done they will send you a "Letter of Authorisation"
• Steve will then help you finish off the paperwork and put you in touch with an FAA Examiner (in UK)

If you FAX the forms then the CAA/FAA bit takes 2-3 weeks. Then it's just a matter of arranging to meet the examiner (the bit I've still got to do).

OC619

[S-Works]

The FAA no longer validate a CPL. You will get a 61.75 licence that says not for commercial use. If you want to be paid to fly an N Reg you will need to get a proper FAA CPL.

[FSJ]

I recently went from UK ATPL to FAA ATP.
The requirement was to pay the UK CAA some money along with a completed licence verification form (FAA do verifications online free of charge....CAA take note!), complete the verification request form with FAA who will then verifly your licence with the UK CAA. When they have done so, they will mail you a document recognising your UK licence. Then you sit the FAA ATP written exam (needs about 12 days study of a GLEIM course to get through quickly, available online; for FAA CPL, you must print out the clearance form to take the test from within the GLEIM software). An FAA medical exam is to be completed, then a flight test in the aircraft type/category that you require. All fairly straight forward, and in general, the FAA are much easier to deal with than the UK CAA. They are even friendly and there was no charge for my ATP licence issue!

Good luck.

[lharle]

The flight review can be done by ant CFI but only an examiner or any body who has the authority will issue your license based on your JAA license.
In that case, only 2 persons can do it in europe and both are examiners.

[S-Works]

I need to fly an N Registered aircraft on a non AOC/PT job out of UK

Can I just point the thread back to the original question and ask for clarification. The original poster was asking about validating a CPL. One would assume that he was expecting to be paid for this work? Therefore if he wants to be paid he will need a full FAA CPL/IR and not a validation. To do this he will need the required training and check ride as specified under the regulations.

[englishal]

If you meet the requirements (such as FAA cross country time, required cross country flights, night etc...) and can accuartely fly chandelles, lazy-8's, 8s on Pylons and can fly to the expected commercial standard as detailed in the practical test standard, then it should be relatively straight forward. You'd probably be looking at 10 hrs to convert the SE CPL as a rough ball park figure.

The CFI is another matter though, you'd have to do the initial CFI flight test with the FAA (NOT a DPE), which is a good 7 hr day. You'd need to pass the FAA writtens, as well as receive the required training and endorsements. Assuming you have all your lesson plans and everything, by virtue of your JAA FI then I'm sure you would find this straight forward, but the FAA would expect you to be competent and things like airspace and procedures (I assume you have not flown in the USA before?) would have to be known extremely well. Again, difficult to put a figure on it, but I reckon you could be looking at 20 hrs - some of which you might be able to do at the same time as the CPL...?

[englishal]

How can you instruct in Florida with no FAA CPl/CFI rating out of interest?

If you are an FI you should have no problem learning the FAA manoeuvres. They are fun but require a bit of practice if you have never done them.

[BigGrecian]

I've done the vast majority of my flying and instructing in Florida

You say you hold a JAA FI but have done instructing in Florida.

It appears you have a UK JAA FI - so therefore how have you managed to isntruct legally in Florida - as it is a requirment to have an instructor rating issued by the country you are flying in by the UK CAA to instruct in another country.

Or was that an uninentional slip?

You also require a visa - as US Immigration say that having the aircraft rental paid for by the student consitutes work - or daren't I ask that?

[Whopity]

as it is a requirment to have an instructor rating issued by the country you are flying in by the UK CAA to instruct in another country.

since when? Whilst it would be desirable, the CAA have no remit to insist on such a thing. The FAA might have something to say about it though.

There are CAA FIs conducting professional training in Florida with no FAA CFI rating and I have seen a letter issued by the FAA accepting it.

[BigGrecian]

Standards Document 39 Section 3.4 for PPL training :

certificates entitling them to conduct ab-initio instruction and authorise solo flights

Thefore if you are giving instruction at a UK FTO and do not hold an FAA CFI you are not qualified to do so.

Heads up to all instructors without the CFI - the CAA mentioned this the other day to our FTO which deals with US Based training.

Also I know a certain FTO which just had an FAA FSDO visit regarding this - which through fear of their over reaching "legal theats" cannot be named. How does the student gain the right to fly solo in US airspace? They can only do this through a student pilot certificate which to fly solo must be endoresed by an FAA CFI. So part 61 does apply because there is no other way - said school was using non FAA CFIs - which meant those students training for a UK JAR PPL could not legally fly solo in US airspace. Cue visit from FAA FSDO, resulting in instructors who were not qualified for the FAA system, and are not qualified for UK CAA either due to the requirements for FTOs training abroad.

[BigGrecian]

Just because the scenario SoCal and other describe been happening as above does not mean it is legal or correct.

The Feds and CAA are aware now and are keeping a beady eye on the goings on at JAA schools in the US now.

The trouble is, is that it is the instructor who will get in trouble not the school.

[Whopity]

Standards Document 39 Section 3.4 for PPL training :

Unfortunately that is not a legal document, it is merely guidance and is simply there to remind FTOs overseas that they should comply with the Law of the State they are operating in. Beyond that, the CAA has no remit to require compliance with foreign laws, any more than it can prevent you from training in a stolen aeroplane so long as it is appropriately certificated.

[BigGrecian]

The Flight Training School are equally responsible as they should be ensuring that their staff are legal to work in the job position and also have the relevant Visa to be employed in the US.

Some flight school's do not care. There are multiple out there which are employing staff illegally and you only have to ask around to see which one has recently been closed down for doing so. Some management simply bump around from school/company to school/company - or even start new companies/schools after the one their at currently fails.

Insurance companies will be interested post accident, but post (hopefully there never is a post) and if they even catch on to the fact that the instructor wasn't appropriately qualified.

The CAA tend to always "allow" hours when ever there is an issue such as this.

The CAA can make your life very difficult and I would not advocate not complying with a standards document, as stated they can refuse licence issue or to accept a test (ie Standards document 3 / 19 for RT or some other issue there)

[englishal]

I'm guessing these are N reg aeroplanes here?

All sounds well dodgey and sailing very close to the wind if you ask me....

[BigGrecian]

due to the fact no training or payment is changing hands.

I have a piece of paper in front of me from US Immigration that defines pay - as a student hiring the aircraft for flight training as you the instructor can log the hours. Therefore flight instruction is defined as work and you must have the right to work in the US to provide this. Therefore you cannot legally instruct on a waiver. (Edit : This is under a directors memo regarding flight training)

You would then need to let a lawyer decide whether that requires an FAA CFI/CPL as one part of government defines it as pay - but another may not. (Of course different departments don't talk to each other
I met an FAA FSDO represenative less than 2 weeks ago at a European JAA FTO in Florida investigating schools providing instruction from JAA FIs without relevant FAA qualfications - I do not know the outcome.

The FAA CFI who signs the student of must have found the student proficient in all maneouvres including stalling etc in accordance with Part 61 so as long as they cover that - then there are no problems.

For approval of a UK FTO your staff would technically have to have an FAA CFI if providing JAA PPL instruction.

Again comes down to just because you got away with it does not mean it is right or legal!

[BillieBob]

I too have seen the letter that Whopity earlier referred to, which was issued by the Atlanta Regional Office about 5 or 6 years ago, agreeing to non-FAA certified flight instructors providing instruction for non-FAA licences and ratings - specifically, as I recall, the letter referred to JAA instructors and JAA professional licences and ratings. The letter did not make any mention of instruction provided to a student (i.e. unlicensed) pilot, nor to any requirements under employment law.

This is no different to the situation in the UK where an FI rating is required only for instruction leading to the issue or renewal/revalidation of a UK or JAA licence or rating.

[selfin]

Originally Posted by BillieBob

This is no different to the situation in the UK where an FI rating is required only for instruction leading to the issue or renewal/revalidation of a UK or JAA licence or rating.

I see no reason to interpret Article 36(2) of the current UK ANO as being limited to purposes connected with a UK/JAA licence/rating.

Originally Posted by ANO Art 36

Instruction in flying
[...]
(2) This article applies to instruction in flying given to any person flying or about to fly a
flying machine or glider for the purpose of becoming qualified for:

(a) the grant of a pilot’s licence; and
(b) the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in his licence.

Originally Posted by ANO Art 155

Interpretation
[...]
‘Licence’ in relation to a flight crew licence includes any certificate of competency or
certificate of validity or revalidation issued with the licence or required to be held in
connection with the licence by the law of the country in which the licence is granted;
[...]

[Whopity]

I see no reason to interpret Article 36(2) of the current UK ANO as being limited to purposes connected with a UK/JAA licence/rating.

That's not what was said, read the sentence again.

[englishal]

Please tell me where it says that a CFI must have flown on all of the students flights? More to the point how exactly would you expect that to work if a student changes instructors?

Well you could look at it like this....every flight done with you, in the eyes of the FAA, is a flight with just "someone", but NOT a CFI. Therefor the time, in the FAA eyes, does not count for jack with regards to instruction. So then to have an FAA CFI "sign off" this time is sailing very close to the wind - (s)he is effectively lying - stating that the flight was an instructional flight, but in actual fact there was no instructor in the aircraft providing the instruction (in the eyes of the FAA)....

I have come across schools like this before, but the difference being that all the FI's were FAA FI's, with "knowledge of JAR"....rather than they way you are doing it...