Class Rating Instructor Training
Requirements for class training (e.g. add-on SEP to PPL)
Hello all,
No too much off-thread I hope is the following observation resp. question.
The pre-entry requirements for a class rating training I understand to be:
- Hold the license (e.g. PPL or CPL) to which to add the desired rating to
- Hold the corresponding Medical (class 2 or 1 respectively)
It is unclear to me however what the training requirements are:
- Any minimum amount of training hours required?
- Or "training as required" at discretion of FI or CRI?
I have browsed through JAR-FCL and LASORS but failed to find the training requirements.
Anyone could clarify on this?
Thank you!
jr
No too much off-thread I hope is the following observation resp. question.
The pre-entry requirements for a class rating training I understand to be:
- Hold the license (e.g. PPL or CPL) to which to add the desired rating to
- Hold the corresponding Medical (class 2 or 1 respectively)
It is unclear to me however what the training requirements are:
- Any minimum amount of training hours required?
- Or "training as required" at discretion of FI or CRI?
I have browsed through JAR-FCL and LASORS but failed to find the training requirements.
Anyone could clarify on this?
Thank you!
jr
I'm only somebody who passed the course, not somebody who runs them, but as I understand it the course provider puts together something to meet the learning objectives and gets it approved by the CAA (or presumably other national authorities) - that includes the training provider's judgment of what is required to deliver a candidate who can pass the skill test.
This webpage seem to cover the minima very well.
Where I did mine at Denham the minima were 30hrs groundschool and 3 hours flying + the skill test; I believe that the groundschool is the minimum in the regs, but if you add in a couple of "ridealongs" I did in the back of a C172 to observe an experienced instructor at work, I did closer to 6 hours and even that was working stupidly hard.
The 30 hours for me were more than enough - but that's me, with a CPL, and formerly a university lecturer teaching aeronautical engineering. I think that anybody with "only" a PPL and neither higher aeronautical knowledge nor prior teaching experience, is going to really struggle to get ready for their skill test in that time.
The one thing that would have made it easier for me (and I was working stupidly hard) would have been to get more right hand seat time recently during which I practiced flying accurately from that seat and I did mention that to them in the end of course debrief as something that I think Denham (or any other course provider) should advise future course participants to get.
G
This webpage seem to cover the minima very well.
Where I did mine at Denham the minima were 30hrs groundschool and 3 hours flying + the skill test; I believe that the groundschool is the minimum in the regs, but if you add in a couple of "ridealongs" I did in the back of a C172 to observe an experienced instructor at work, I did closer to 6 hours and even that was working stupidly hard.
The 30 hours for me were more than enough - but that's me, with a CPL, and formerly a university lecturer teaching aeronautical engineering. I think that anybody with "only" a PPL and neither higher aeronautical knowledge nor prior teaching experience, is going to really struggle to get ready for their skill test in that time.
The one thing that would have made it easier for me (and I was working stupidly hard) would have been to get more right hand seat time recently during which I practiced flying accurately from that seat and I did mention that to them in the end of course debrief as something that I think Denham (or any other course provider) should advise future course participants to get.
G
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Janrein, not quite sure what you are asking, but I suspect this will answer it............
Standards Document 14 (A): JAR-FCL Guidance to Class Rating Examiners - Single Pilot Aeroplanes | Publications | CAA
.
Standards Document 14 (A): JAR-FCL Guidance to Class Rating Examiners - Single Pilot Aeroplanes | Publications | CAA
.
Examples to clarify the question about class-rating training
bose-x, Ex-Oggie,
I see I made it not very clear. My question is about training requirements - if any - for adding an additional rating to a license. For example a PPL(A) holder with TMG rating only wanting to add the SEP rating. Is there a regulatory minimum training requirement or training-as-required? Other example: a CPL(A) holder with SEP rating wanting to add the TMG rating, same question.
The training referred to can be a CRI´s job, hence my question on this thread.
Ex-Oggie thank you for pointing me to JAR-FCL Section F, I had been through that but I had the feeling I missed something, now I think it is probably all there is. In paragraphs 1.261(b) and 1.261(c) I have found the most relevant information for the examples above. Meanwhile I have come to understand there is probably no numerical hour minimum defined, but training must have followed an approved course.
Thanks again
JR
I see I made it not very clear. My question is about training requirements - if any - for adding an additional rating to a license. For example a PPL(A) holder with TMG rating only wanting to add the SEP rating. Is there a regulatory minimum training requirement or training-as-required? Other example: a CPL(A) holder with SEP rating wanting to add the TMG rating, same question.
The training referred to can be a CRI´s job, hence my question on this thread.
Ex-Oggie thank you for pointing me to JAR-FCL Section F, I had been through that but I had the feeling I missed something, now I think it is probably all there is. In paragraphs 1.261(b) and 1.261(c) I have found the most relevant information for the examples above. Meanwhile I have come to understand there is probably no numerical hour minimum defined, but training must have followed an approved course.
Thanks again
JR
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Ah! Now I understand!
The training is at the discretion of the CRI in order for the candidate to be able to pass a skill test. For some ratings there are a number of elements that need to be covered which are part of the class rating. So for example someone going from a ML to a SSEA would need to meet the requirements of the SSEA, stall and spin awareness training as an example.
It is up to the CRI/FI conducting the training to ensure he requirements have been met. In the case of the NPPL it is all quite well load out on the NPPL website. For a JAA licence it's a case of looking at the requirements for each class rating.
Nothing to difficult.
The training is at the discretion of the CRI in order for the candidate to be able to pass a skill test. For some ratings there are a number of elements that need to be covered which are part of the class rating. So for example someone going from a ML to a SSEA would need to meet the requirements of the SSEA, stall and spin awareness training as an example.
It is up to the CRI/FI conducting the training to ensure he requirements have been met. In the case of the NPPL it is all quite well load out on the NPPL website. For a JAA licence it's a case of looking at the requirements for each class rating.
Nothing to difficult.
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Bose,
You seem to be the font of all knowledge - I currently hold a SEP CRI rating (JAR PPL).
I'd like to add a TMG rating to enable me to do biennials in the gliding club motorglider for the instructors with a MGIR and SLMG PPL holders.
Any advice on the route to a TMG rating and would adding that rating automatically convey CRI status on TMG/NPPL SLMG?
AIUI the easiest way to a TMG rating is to complete the necessary training to satisfy NPPL SLMG requirements and then apply to the CAA for a TMG rating although LASORS states 75 P1 hours on type required (but I think this means 75 P1 hours SEP or SLMG not SLMG only).
Your thoughts?
7700
You seem to be the font of all knowledge - I currently hold a SEP CRI rating (JAR PPL).
I'd like to add a TMG rating to enable me to do biennials in the gliding club motorglider for the instructors with a MGIR and SLMG PPL holders.
Any advice on the route to a TMG rating and would adding that rating automatically convey CRI status on TMG/NPPL SLMG?
AIUI the easiest way to a TMG rating is to complete the necessary training to satisfy NPPL SLMG requirements and then apply to the CAA for a TMG rating although LASORS states 75 P1 hours on type required (but I think this means 75 P1 hours SEP or SLMG not SLMG only).
Your thoughts?
7700
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7700 - as a JAR PPL holder you just need to do training at the judgement of the FI/CRI to pass the TMG class rating test. A few hours should be fine. Pass the test and pay the rating addition fee to the CAA and you then add a TMG rating to your licence. A TMG rating is the appropiate JAR-FCL rating, it covers SLMG privileges. You need 15 hours on class to exercise instructional privileges in that class (see LASORS Sect H).
If you can wait to post-end Aug I should be able to do your test if you need someone.
If you can wait to post-end Aug I should be able to do your test if you need someone.
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7700, as says the answer is yes. As a CRI SE you are able to teach any SE Class that you hold on your licence provided you meet the experience requirements. The same goes if you were to add an SET Class such as the Cessna Caravan or Finist.
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blagger & bose - thanks both.
blagger, are you a TMG examiner? as AIUI you need to be in order to sign off the test (and it is a test for TMG addition whereas it's not for SLMG NPPL) - and as I've found out, there aren't too many TMG examiners around but plenty of instructors for SLMG NPPL who can sign of the necessary paperwork.
The thing is, I want to get it sorted before EASA kicks in to secure what may become 'grandfather rights'.
Back up plan is to see Clive Stainer at Hinton if my local source of instruction proves uncommitted.
7700
blagger, are you a TMG examiner? as AIUI you need to be in order to sign off the test (and it is a test for TMG addition whereas it's not for SLMG NPPL) - and as I've found out, there aren't too many TMG examiners around but plenty of instructors for SLMG NPPL who can sign of the necessary paperwork.
The thing is, I want to get it sorted before EASA kicks in to secure what may become 'grandfather rights'.
Back up plan is to see Clive Stainer at Hinton if my local source of instruction proves uncommitted.
7700
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blagger - thanks for that, I'll bear it in mind and drop you a pm toward the end of August.
Where are you in the UK? I'm Midlands (Notts/Derby) but don't mind a commute to get the job done.
And do you have a motorglider available?
7700
Where are you in the UK? I'm Midlands (Notts/Derby) but don't mind a commute to get the job done.
And do you have a motorglider available?
7700
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Ask the ATO where you are doing your training. They should have a list of recommended reading that works alongside the course they teach.
Additionally, get fully up to speed on regulations and type/class specific info.
XO
Additionally, get fully up to speed on regulations and type/class specific info.
XO
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I did my CRI course at Andrewsfield last year. At the time I only had 350 hours total time so I was a bit worried about what the course would be like and whether I would be up to it. I only have a bog standard PPL. I revised almost the entire PPL syllabus before starting the course and Andrewsfield sent me a list comprising about 200 questions that I went through before starting the course. All of this proved very worthwhile. If you just roll up without having good theoretical knowledge and knowledge of the ANO etc. then you really will struggle to do well.
My day started at 8am, swatting up or writing briefings, followed by a full day of study and flying at the airfield then more study and perfecting my briefings till 10pm.
You get thrown in at the deep end at Andrewsfield. Within a couple of hours of arriving there I was standing in front of an instructor giving a pre-flight briefing on stalls. At the end of 5 days you'll be expected to have produced good short briefings on circuits, PFLs, stalls, circuits etc. plus a long (45 minute) brief on a topic decided by the examiner. My long brief was tailwheel conversions. Your briefings will be scrutinised and picked apart, line by line!
The test itself, from start to finish, was over 4 hours long. This included giving a pre-flight briefing, the flight itself, a long brief and general questioning. Carol Cooper was my examiner. I wasn't perfect (who is?) but being told I'd passed the course was a great feeling.
Other good ideas:- I hadn't flown a Cessna 152 for 3 years or so before doing the course. I wish I'd spent a couple of hours with an FI in one before starting the course. A few hours in the RHS with an FI would have helped as well, though to be honest, flying from the right seat didn't really cause me any problems, possibly because my my own aeroplane is flown with throttle in left hand and stick in right hand.
Although, ultimately, your knowledge and skills will get you through the test, arriving at your chosen flight school with enthusiasm, a positive attitude and good theoretical knowledge will go a long way in helping you to achieve the CRI rating.
I really enjoy instructing and hope to have an FI rating within a couple of years.
My day started at 8am, swatting up or writing briefings, followed by a full day of study and flying at the airfield then more study and perfecting my briefings till 10pm.
You get thrown in at the deep end at Andrewsfield. Within a couple of hours of arriving there I was standing in front of an instructor giving a pre-flight briefing on stalls. At the end of 5 days you'll be expected to have produced good short briefings on circuits, PFLs, stalls, circuits etc. plus a long (45 minute) brief on a topic decided by the examiner. My long brief was tailwheel conversions. Your briefings will be scrutinised and picked apart, line by line!
The test itself, from start to finish, was over 4 hours long. This included giving a pre-flight briefing, the flight itself, a long brief and general questioning. Carol Cooper was my examiner. I wasn't perfect (who is?) but being told I'd passed the course was a great feeling.
Other good ideas:- I hadn't flown a Cessna 152 for 3 years or so before doing the course. I wish I'd spent a couple of hours with an FI in one before starting the course. A few hours in the RHS with an FI would have helped as well, though to be honest, flying from the right seat didn't really cause me any problems, possibly because my my own aeroplane is flown with throttle in left hand and stick in right hand.
Although, ultimately, your knowledge and skills will get you through the test, arriving at your chosen flight school with enthusiasm, a positive attitude and good theoretical knowledge will go a long way in helping you to achieve the CRI rating.
I really enjoy instructing and hope to have an FI rating within a couple of years.
