When will Instructors get paid properly?
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When will Instructors get paid properly?
Does everyone acctually believe with the pilot shortage instructors will start to get to paid reasonably? I am not meaning excessive pay (like tradesman) but enough to attract people to learn to fly and remain in G.A. When I looked at the award the other day and found out the starting wage is 31k or something around that figure. I was shocked! So the industry expects after forking out all that money pilots will want to sit in G.A! I think there will be a shift in thinking in the coming years or there will be a lot of planes sitting on the ground!
Educated Hillbilly
Traditionally instructing has always paid badly, but I would say now there are opportunities out there to get salaried positions as a flight instructor.
I do believe Tollerton were offering a 12000 a year retainer with £20 an hour flight pay. Cambridge were offering 18000 a year salary. One or two schools in Scotland were offering salaried postions that were advertised in the flying magazines last month. These are still "low" salaries but it is better than the flight pay only terms that are commonly offered; these are survivable salaries for a year or two until you progress onto something better (airlines or multi/IR instructing).
If you search around in the UK you can find instructor positions with semi-respectable retainers now.
I only became a full time FI when offered a decent retainer, I could never have considered going full time on flight pay only. Remember no one is forcing you to accept FI jobs paying flight pay only, you have a choice, hold out for better terms and conditions.
I do believe Tollerton were offering a 12000 a year retainer with £20 an hour flight pay. Cambridge were offering 18000 a year salary. One or two schools in Scotland were offering salaried postions that were advertised in the flying magazines last month. These are still "low" salaries but it is better than the flight pay only terms that are commonly offered; these are survivable salaries for a year or two until you progress onto something better (airlines or multi/IR instructing).
If you search around in the UK you can find instructor positions with semi-respectable retainers now.
I only became a full time FI when offered a decent retainer, I could never have considered going full time on flight pay only. Remember no one is forcing you to accept FI jobs paying flight pay only, you have a choice, hold out for better terms and conditions.
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NOW
The salaries are a lot better than in 92 5 USD/h
Now you can get a job in most parts of the world since there is a shortage of FI.
There is places paying 24-30k USD a year plus perks.
This is as good as I have seen it.
Now you can get a job in most parts of the world since there is a shortage of FI.
There is places paying 24-30k USD a year plus perks.
This is as good as I have seen it.
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Try instructing on Microlights - not the weight-shift thingy's, there are real aircraft as good as C150's, Tomahawks etc out there to fly. Some even have glass cockpits. Your don't even need a CPL a PPL will do and the pay is about £50 plus an hour. This is where the career instructor needs to migrate to, leave the hours-builders willing to work for peanuts on group A behind! Have fun and get paid well!
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Simple economics
Salary changes are a reflection of Demand vs Supply. So, salaries will increase if the demand for pilots increases by more than than the number available (unlikely due to technology reducing the human invovement in flying an aircraft plus the fact that there's stil plenty of people who find being a pilot to be a desirable career).
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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One thing is for certain - if this poor summer continues you'll be looking at the exact opposite: schools going under.
Sorry to be a doom merchant amongst the optimism but compare the hours flown last year at your school to this years. Have a stiff brandy in one hand when you do.
VFE.
Sorry to be a doom merchant amongst the optimism but compare the hours flown last year at your school to this years. Have a stiff brandy in one hand when you do.
VFE.
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I do believe Tollerton were offering a 12000 a year retainer with £20 an hour flight pay. Cambridge were offering 18000 a year salary.
I was under the impression FI's were on a very small pay with the way people talk about it on this forum.
I'm trying to put a time/budget plan together APP at EFT v 0-ATPL at OBA then do a FI and instruct here in the UK.
£12,000pa retainer = £836 per month / £193 per week
And then £20 per flying hour (understanding I'd probably not get paid for ground instruction).
How many hours could I clock per week/month in the Summer? And how many is possible during the winter? I was guessing 15hrs pw (£300) in the summer and possibly down to as little as 5hrs (£100) pw (or God forbid 'zero') in the winter.
Surley this could pay £7,800 + £2,600 from summer and winter hours respectively and then a retainer of £12,000 pa.
£22,400 ~ £17,000 pa after tax or almost £1,500 in your bank every month for doing something you love while logging a healthy amount of hours on the logbook.
Are we comparing this pay to airline pilots pay or the UK average? ... If my figures are correct I'll be on the next flight to the US to get it done asap.
Thanks
Andrew
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UK??
I did not know that you guys were talking about the UK only I was talking globally. (to each his own mentality)
If you fly less may be it is something wrong with the business, I might suggest.
If you fly less may be it is something wrong with the business, I might suggest.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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No, when it comes to the UK it is down to the weather. We haven't had such a poor summer for over 10 years and it's impact is starting to be felt. Follow a poor summer with the usual poor winter and I think you'll find schools going under ergo no rise in requirements for more instructors. The FTN article this month surprised me in it's exaggeration of the instructor shortage issue to be perfectly honest. Much of the research seemed to come from hearsay, celebrities and probably, dare I say it - here! There were a few adverts from the usual crop of hours builder employers but nothing that really made me stand up and think "****e, things are getting very deseperate", more a case of making news for a minority target group sound more drastic than is really the case. Hardly unusual for any media body is it?
VFE.
VFE.
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money
If it's money you want go do something that makes money. Even airline Captains don't make relatively BIG money anymore in real terms.
Even if all the schools put another £10 per hour onto the training and passed it all on to the instructor that would make the instructor another 4K per year or so. Problem i have seen is how exquisitely price sensitive the punters are. Truth is at even £10/hr more than the other lot down the road the punters are gone!!!(esp. the trial flight trade).
I really hope no-one here thinks the schools are coining it and exploiting the instructors who are getting paid in two ways.1. a bit of money and 2.experience to make them more employable.
There are two challenges for flying schools one is competing for the recreational pound from the punters and the other is delivering the training. What they need to do is pay the career instructors well enough to retain. I am afraid that even if they paid some of the transient instructors a billion pounds a day they would still be abandoned once Stelios/Branson et al discovered their talent! Why? because flying is VOCATIONAL. I think that brings me back to the original thread which is that flying is not about the money. If it was about money - how come a bloke i have just paid £2900 for 1 week taking photos in my 172 has gone to a turboprop as a first officer with a bond and less than £280 a week to live on after tax with an expensive re-location to boot? Answer of course is because he wants to!
It's never the money.
Even if all the schools put another £10 per hour onto the training and passed it all on to the instructor that would make the instructor another 4K per year or so. Problem i have seen is how exquisitely price sensitive the punters are. Truth is at even £10/hr more than the other lot down the road the punters are gone!!!(esp. the trial flight trade).
I really hope no-one here thinks the schools are coining it and exploiting the instructors who are getting paid in two ways.1. a bit of money and 2.experience to make them more employable.
There are two challenges for flying schools one is competing for the recreational pound from the punters and the other is delivering the training. What they need to do is pay the career instructors well enough to retain. I am afraid that even if they paid some of the transient instructors a billion pounds a day they would still be abandoned once Stelios/Branson et al discovered their talent! Why? because flying is VOCATIONAL. I think that brings me back to the original thread which is that flying is not about the money. If it was about money - how come a bloke i have just paid £2900 for 1 week taking photos in my 172 has gone to a turboprop as a first officer with a bond and less than £280 a week to live on after tax with an expensive re-location to boot? Answer of course is because he wants to!
It's never the money.
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in 2 ways?
EXCUSE ME!
you pay me one way! MONEY!
SO I guess the miner is getting paid 2 ways also so now he knows how to brake rock and so on. When you work for a person either that person trains you and it is because he can not find a person already with that knowledge or hires a one that already knows how.
Are you going to tell me (and I heard this before) that the school is really doing the FI a favor.
And of course the student (you call them punters) are looking for the best value , and they should, and that is the beauty of our society or would you prefere a government regulated rates!
you pay me one way! MONEY!
SO I guess the miner is getting paid 2 ways also so now he knows how to brake rock and so on. When you work for a person either that person trains you and it is because he can not find a person already with that knowledge or hires a one that already knows how.
Are you going to tell me (and I heard this before) that the school is really doing the FI a favor.
And of course the student (you call them punters) are looking for the best value , and they should, and that is the beauty of our society or would you prefere a government regulated rates!
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Titter...titter...titter. Long may there be employers out there who exist to serve YOUR interests! You want the market forces to get the punters best value whilst simultaneously requiring market forces to be not a factor when employing transient hour builders -Mmmm.......
The situation is like it is for a reason - over-regulation makes cofa light aircraft ops horribly top heavy to operate leaving no dosh to slosh. Some light aircraft are burning £40-50 an hour in (75% taxed) fuel. On the quiet there is a bit of money being earned at the light end for now! If the schools were all rich i would say action was needed - but they are just not - so there!
The situation is like it is for a reason - over-regulation makes cofa light aircraft ops horribly top heavy to operate leaving no dosh to slosh. Some light aircraft are burning £40-50 an hour in (75% taxed) fuel. On the quiet there is a bit of money being earned at the light end for now! If the schools were all rich i would say action was needed - but they are just not - so there!
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Hello,
I read the shortage of FI in UK.
I am french and it is becoming the same thing in France.
But here most of FI are free, I mean they are not paid like in UK.
I woud like to become an airline pilot, I passed my ATPL theory etc.
It would be a great idea for me to teach other students and fly to build hours.
But it is a problem where "the dog bites its tail", I mean FI is good job, but when I noticed the crap pay, I don't want to do this job! In fact, I can't.
Why ? Just because I must to pay my training, so my loan!
So FI course is not even a plan B for me.
I'm sure flight dispatcher is better remunerated... but... you don't fly...
I read the shortage of FI in UK.
I am french and it is becoming the same thing in France.
But here most of FI are free, I mean they are not paid like in UK.
I woud like to become an airline pilot, I passed my ATPL theory etc.
It would be a great idea for me to teach other students and fly to build hours.
But it is a problem where "the dog bites its tail", I mean FI is good job, but when I noticed the crap pay, I don't want to do this job! In fact, I can't.
Why ? Just because I must to pay my training, so my loan!
So FI course is not even a plan B for me.
I'm sure flight dispatcher is better remunerated... but... you don't fly...
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There is a shortage of instructors and if I have read correctly ( FTN ) we are going back to the old system where a PPL with an instructor rating can earn. Which is great for the flying schools and the dedicated PPLs who want to do it. However most of students are fairly middle aged and succesful in what they do. Which means they are prepared to instruct for free as it is a hobby. As I can see it this devalue the FIs pay even more!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Well one thing is for certain - a flying school will take someone they don't have to pay over someone they do! And you can forget the CAA or JAR standing up for the rights of CPL holders when it comes to financial issues. Perhaps those who will be most affected by any non-professional scabs coming in will be well out of the game by then? It is the dedicated career instructors at clubs I worry for when I think about it Bunny.
VFE.
VFE.
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Scabs?
This description of anyone who wishes to instruct without being a CPL is appalling!
Only with the introduction of JAA did it become neccessary to hold a CPL to be paid when instructing. The so called 'scabs' were always paid and continue so under the 'grandfather rights'. I have no resentment of youngsters gaining experience while instructing and warmley wish them all the best in their airline careers and I am happy to assist them with work and encouragement. Indeed it is healthy in clubs for others to be inspired to achieve the same.
However the aspiring airline pilot must look after themselves and since christmas I have had three regular instructors leave to join the airlines at just a few days notice. We need stability in flying clubs that the dedicated FI, who can be paid, based on the PPL or hold a dedicated professional Instructor licence.
Working for free or not has little to do with it.
Only with the introduction of JAA did it become neccessary to hold a CPL to be paid when instructing. The so called 'scabs' were always paid and continue so under the 'grandfather rights'. I have no resentment of youngsters gaining experience while instructing and warmley wish them all the best in their airline careers and I am happy to assist them with work and encouragement. Indeed it is healthy in clubs for others to be inspired to achieve the same.
However the aspiring airline pilot must look after themselves and since christmas I have had three regular instructors leave to join the airlines at just a few days notice. We need stability in flying clubs that the dedicated FI, who can be paid, based on the PPL or hold a dedicated professional Instructor licence.
Working for free or not has little to do with it.