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Canada The great white north. A BIG country with few people and LOTS of aviation.

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Old 6th Oct 2017, 14:39   #21 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by er340790 View Post
I've just been audited by the CRA on my 2016 Tax Return.

One of the Questions was 'Do you have any dependents?' YES/NO. (If YES please give details.)

I put: 2.1 million illegal immigrants, 1.1 million drug addicts, 4.4 million unemployable scroungers, 50,000 criminals, hundreds of idiots in Parliament and 66,000 employees at Bombardier.

The CRA now say my response was 'Unacceptable'.

Can anyone please tell me who I left out?????
"I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off of my stack."

Roger Waters
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 15:53   #22 (permalink)
 
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Yet Boeing sold United about 80 737's at 23M apiece according to their CEO. Canada has around 130 orders for 737/787, counter duties anyone. Who exactly can launch a WTO grievance?
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 18:01   #23 (permalink)
 
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Who do you guy's think pay those duties?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 15:11   #24 (permalink)
 
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Boeing’s claim of “below cost” is an imaginary number at best. They’re going to have to stretch their imaginations to make it fit their accusations.

Bombardier and Delta reached an agreed to sales figure for the purchase of 75 aircraft. The “actual cost” of each aircraft won’t be known until they are “actually” built and delivered. Until then it’s an “assumption” on Boeing’s part.
Not much for Boeing to go on, I’d say.

They’re just doing what they need to do. Based on their past realities with Airbus cracking the US market in the 80s, there’s danger in allowing Bombardier, Sukhoi, Embraer, and the MRJ into the US market. You’d expect Boeing to have a wobble.
Wouldn’t you?

Willie
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 16:03   #25 (permalink)
 
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Maybe this has been asked before but what is to prevent these aircraft from being sold to a leasing company in Canada and then delivered to Delta? Would that not circumvent this tariff?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 16:12   #26 (permalink)
 
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No, it wouldn’t as the leasing company would have to import the planes to the US register to be operated by DL.

GF
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 16:31   #27 (permalink)
 
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We’ll see how much or how little political clout Delta has.
And whether or not the ITC is in Donald's Pocket.
Surely, there are a few intelligent Americans left who can see through this.

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Old 8th Oct 2017, 17:35   #28 (permalink)
 
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Trump's been on record as disliking free trade agreements, wanting to renegotionate or pull out of NAFTA. This duty is in line with his proposed policies. The dumb thing about it is that Trump is opposed to free trade agreements because they're seen as causing the USA's negative trade balance, but the aerospace industry is actually the greatest generator of trade surplus for the US (source), so putting trade restrictions in place for that sector (which other countries will certainly levy in kind on US products) is shooting himself in the foot.

Delta partnering up with Air France-KLM may perhaps have something to do with it as well.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 21:01   #29 (permalink)
 
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Exclusive: WTO rules Boeing's state subsidies illegal - BBC News
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 00:30   #30 (permalink)
 
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Clearly, this is the fall of the United States as we knew it, happening right before our eyes. This action by Boeing is but one example of how the United States is in a downward spiral. Isolationist policies of Donald Trump totally ignore the fact that they have to deal with the real world around them (whether he likes it or not).

Trump behaves like a high school freshman leading the school pep rally. Nothing more. Quite juvenile. Hasn't worked much since he took office, but hits the links every weekend. How many have been fired or resigned under his brilliant leadership?

His notion that NAFTA is a bad deal for the U.S. is complete fantasy. Re-negotiating it could cost them more than they think. It might leave little to be re-negotiated as evidenced by the American delegation in Canada not having many concerns or proposals for Mexico and Canada. Stay tuned.

Companies other than Boeing make suitable quality fighters that Canada could easily turn to as a solution to Boeing's hypocracy.

Why hold our military hostage in all this? Because, we aren't at war with anyone and aren't about to get into one in the near future. No pressing issue for the RCAF at present. Perfect timing, I'd say with lots of options for the government of Canada.

I'm more concerned for the Boeing employees in Manitoba who have more to lose if things go up in smoke at the ITC.

This is David and Goliath. David has a few stones. It remains to be seen whether one or some of those stones can have an impact, let alone kill the idea of tariffs on Bombardier.

We could start with Hydro Quebec. They could charge the U.S. 300% more for their imported electricity.
Uranium could cost more for the U.S. medical institutions to import.
Water. California might have to pay 300% more for imported fresh Canadian water.
Oil. We're their biggest supplier and the oil patch is hurting. Time to increase the price??
Aluminum. (would that help Boeing build more airplanes?) We should charge more for our natural resources.

David isn't without stones in this fight.

Willie
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 14:29   #31 (permalink)
 
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It is the business model of the 21st century. Why innovate when you can litigate.
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Old 10th Oct 2017, 10:17   #32 (permalink)
 
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trump and Brexit are the two most evident examples in a decline of common sense and educational standards amongst electorates.

Dont bother to think just vote the way the print media (UK) or Faux news (US ) tells you and you get an incompetent administration doing untold damage to the economy and social fabric of our countries.

In your case in the USA you have a President who doenst understand that beign the most powerful country doesn t mean you always get your own way, you have to trade with others and that means on terms that are general fair to both sides.

In our case UK we used to be the most powerful country in the world but that was 150 years ago and now we have to play the game like everyone else with cooperation and compromise. But our government feels we are above all of that and can be 'Great' again but of course we can't because the world has caught up and we are a pretty small place in the general scheme of things .

A tragedy for both the worlds great 'English speaking countries'
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 03:31   #33 (permalink)
 
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Another view of the “Bombardier versus the Duopoly”. Interestingly one of the reasons for the complaint may be that over 50% of the CSeries is US made!
Opinion: Why Boeing vs. Bombardier Is Really About China | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 17:41   #34 (permalink)
 
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Yanks

'We are not going to pay any tariff,' Delta CEO says of CSeries planes - Business - CBC News
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 18:58   #35 (permalink)
 
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Even the Motley Fool has made a 180 on Bombardier.

Why the C Series’s success is what Boeing Co. is really afraid of
Demetris Afxentiou, the Motley Fool

Over the course of the past few weeks, the aerospace sector has been quietly watching the ongoing battle escalate between Bombardier, Inc. (TSX:BBD.B) and Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA).
At the core of the dispute between the two companies lies the CSeries, the revolutionary new jet that Bombardier built and brought to market after an extended period of development and testing that went billions over budget and nearly bankrupted the company.
Bombardier relied on a number of investments and loans to build the CSeries, and those government subsidies form part of the dispute with Boeing. Ironically, Boeing itself has received a greater amount of funding from various levels of government on more than one occasion for its own projects.
In terms of orders, the CSeries struggled to gain the 300 orders by launch that Bombardier had been hoping for, at least until both Air Canada and Delta Air Lines Inc. both offered Bombardier sizeable contracts for the new aircraft that pushed total production to well over 300.

What is Boeing’s complaint?
Boeing’s primary complaint is that Bombardier was dumping the planes into the U.S. market at significantly reduced rates, which caused harm to Boeing’s own sales.
That’s going to be a really tough claim to substantiate, as the CSeries is firmly slated in the 100-120 passenger segment, which Boeing cannot currently compete in. The smallest modern plane that Boeing makes to rival the CSeries is the 737, and even the newest generation of that aircraft, in the smallest configuration, is still larger than the CSeries both in terms of passengers and overall size.
The CSeries is widely respected for being more fuel efficient and introducing new technologies that improve the experience for both flight crews and passengers. The smaller size of the jet also allows it to fly to smaller secondary towns and routes where larger jets, such as the 737, would be cost prohibitive, if not too large to land.
In a series of rulings as recently as last week, U.S. duties of nearly 300% were imposed on CSeries jets, which cast doubt on the future of the Delta deal. Prior to the announcement, several U.S. airlines had sent strongly worded letters of concern to the Department of Commerce on the issue, urging the body to rule against the tariffs and encouraging a free market.
Delta threw its weight behind Bombardier further this week, commenting that it will move forward with the CSeries deal, with CEO Ed Bastian informing analysts during the earnings call this week that we will take the planes, and that the decision from Commerce is not just disappointing. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
If that wasn’t direct enough, Mr. Bastian went further: “We think that the aircraft needs to come to market. We believe it will come to market and we believe that Delta will get it at the agreed contractual price. We’re not going to be forced to pay tariffs or do anything of the ilk so there should not be any concerns on our investors minds in that regard.”
Delta’s first CSeries delivery is currently scheduled next April, by which time a final decision from the International Trade Commission is likely to weigh in on the matter.

Is Bombardier a good investment?
Bombardier’s CSeries is an advanced jet that is disrupting the status quo. This has the bigger players like Boeing worried for obvious reasons. Just looking at that aspect, Bombardier as an investment option may raise some eyebrows.
Looking deeper, however, Bombardier has a string of issues that need to be resolved, including this recent spat with Boeing. If the CSeries were to be taxed significantly (if not prohibitively) from entering the U.S. market, that would be a severe blow, but not the death knell, for the CSeries.
Bombardier is already actively pursuing other markets for the CSeries, and Europe and Asia in particular may fit with the smaller commuter-style role the jet can play.
In my opinion, Bombardier may be too risky an investment for most, but the company has made a significant improvement over just a year ago. If Bombardier can weather the current storm and stick to the CSeries delivery schedule, the company may emerge as an intriguing investment opportunity.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 21:26   #36 (permalink)
 
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Transport Canada

Interested to know if Transport Canada could deem the Boeing Line of Aircraft persona non grata in Canada?
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Old 13th Oct 2017, 18:33   #37 (permalink)
 
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Interested to know if Transport Canada could deem the Boeing Line of Aircraft persona non grata in Canada?
Based on what? Millions of hours of safe and effective operations by several Canadian operators?

I think this Boeing thing is the height of hypocrisy but let's be real. The only ones who'd be damaged by such actions are Canadian operators, their employees and customers.
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Old 13th Oct 2017, 19:18   #38 (permalink)
 
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Hopefully, when Boeing's complaint is heard by the USITC, who deal in International trade agreements, this will all go away much to Boeing's disappointment.
(But, the big guy always wins. Unless the law determines otherwise)

I'm pretty sure Bombardier's lawyers are just as conversant as Boeing's when it comes to international law relevant to the sale or purchase of aircraft across borders.
I suspect the USITC are as well, and Boeing are going to have a hard time proving big, bad, ol' Bomb-a-deer caused them harm.

Willie
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 02:57   #39 (permalink)
 
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Interested to know if Transport Canada could deem the Boeing Line of Aircraft persona non grata in Canada?
On what grounds?
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 12:58   #40 (permalink)
 
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On what grounds?


Trump and his yes men and woman have used fake reasons to come up with the 300% duties and penalty so as they say Tit for Tat work for the US so good enough for Canada.
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