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Old 19th Dec 2012, 00:00   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 880
Westjet lying {again}

Tonnight West Jet flight 434, CYYZ CYOW is no where to be seen on the ramp in CYOW, the reason given is "weather", what total crap! The METAR for the flight ETA was 01009KT 3SM-SN BR OVC005 00/M00 A2953 RMK SF8 VRY LGT SN SLP 005, and the TAF shows no reason to cancel, All other airlines operating and all corporate aircraft {including ours} operating normally, in view of West Jet staff not being up front with the real reason, they have just lost a major corporate customer, this is by no means the first time Wet Jet has been less than candid regarding the reason for a delay/cancelation. The good news is this makes my case for another company aircraft a bit easier!

Last edited by clunckdriver; 19th Dec 2012 at 00:03.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 01:02   #2 (permalink)
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any choice really

I position on my own dollar all the time, and it's ws over ac any day. Care to elaborate.
jb
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 10:30   #3 (permalink)
 
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Did they specifically state that it was because of the weather in Ottawa?
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 11:17   #4 (permalink)
 
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Yes JO they did, but a quick glance at "Flight Aware" tells a very diferent story, I would suspect that someone didnt read the notice of thirty minute delays into CYOW, {the weather wasnt too bad, but the very heavy wet snow on taxiways took a lot of moving} I dont really care if some left seater didnt get the big picture, Im just tired of West Jet and their excuses {not to crazy about their endless drivel on the PA when deadheading and trying to sleep either} Today Im going to try to convince the powers that be that we need another aircraft so as to avoid this situation in the future, {not quite ready for CVs yet folks!}

Last edited by clunckdriver; 19th Dec 2012 at 11:18.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 15:38   #5 (permalink)
 
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Westjet always touts their great on-time performance. I don't know what they are smoking. Have a look at the FIDS displays at any airport in Canada. Of all the delays, Westjet usually has the highest percentage.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 17:53   #6 (permalink)
 
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I like WJ as a rule, but have to agree that if you want an on time flight, make sure you book a departure before 2pm. After that, a high percentage of the fleet are struggling to keep up with the 35 minute turnarounds.
Pretty much everything goes through Calgary at some time during the day, where there are de-icing delays for 6 months of the year and TS delays for the other 6 months.
Calgary Airport don't help this by suspending all ground activities whenever there is a chance of lightning in the vicinity (i.e. every summer afternoon and evening), even though take offs and landings are continuing unaffected and perfectly safely.
But WJ should step up to the plate and be honest with their customers. In this digital age, it only takes a minute to track what has really happened to the intended 737, and more than once I have been fed a fairy tale by the customer service agents. Please don't tell me the flight will arrive in YVR within 30 minutes when I can see on my cellphone that it hasn't even arrived in Calgary yet, let alone departed.
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 18:11   #7 (permalink)
 
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Well put ASB01, in this case it turns out that a well known TV personality was fed this load of crap whilst waiting for a pax from this flight, it took this person about thirty secs to check "Flight Aware" on their pad, and lo and behold, there was the flight on its way back to CYYZ, obviously a bit short on Jet A, its geting much harder to snow the public given the high tech tracking stuff out there!
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 20:12   #8 (permalink)
 
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Clunk,
I did some light Digital snooping myself,

Metars for YOW:
CYOW 182300Z 36008KT 3SM -SN BR BKN009 OVC025 00/M00 A2954 RMK SF7SC1 /S03/ SLP008

CYOW 182200Z 36007KT 1 1/2SM -SN BR OVC002 00/M00 A2952 RMK SN3SF5 SLP003

CYOW 182100Z 35006KT 1SM -SN BR VV005 00/M00 A2951 RESN RMK SN8 /SO2/ SLP998

CYOW 182052Z 35006KT 3/4SM SN BR VV002 00/M00 A2951 RMK SN8 SLP997

CYOW 182000Z 36006KT 1SM -SN BR VV007 00/M00 A2950 RMK SN8 SLP995

CYOW 181900Z 01006KT 1SM -SN BR OVC005 00/M00 A2949 RMK SN5SF3 SLP992

CYOW 181800Z 07010KT 2SM -SN BR OVC005 00/M00 A2948 RMK SN2SF6 SLP989
Navlost.eu - METAR and TAF Archive

We all know what happens when it's been snowing most of the day, and for those of us who regularly operate in and out of YOW, we are aware of their outstanding runway maintenance!

The CSA may have said Wx delay but in fact, I would hazard a guess it was RSC/RFI that led to the diversion, bit of a technicality, after all the WX is what made the runway slick.

I can't find a copy of the historical NOTAMS for YOW, so I can't say for sure how the runway was.
And it doesn't exactly look like it was ops normal for everyone else.
I'm sure I'd find more if i looked but I truly don't care that much



AC190
16:10
16:32
Delayed

17:10
17:43
Delayed


Arrived at Gate
Details


AC460
17:10
17:29
Delayed

18:10
19:51
Delayed


Arrived at Gate
Details


AC462
18:10
18:18
19:10
19:30
Delayed


Arrived at Gate
Details


AC464
19:10
19:20
20:10
20:31
Delayed


Arrived at Gate
Details


AC466
20:10
20:10
21:10
21:39
Delayed


Arrived at Gate
Details










You said there were 30 minute delays arriving in to YOW, Which wold have put flight 434 OTG at 1747 local, looks like an AC flight landed just before that and then the next AC guy landed at 1951. Maybe they closed the runway for maint?? How much hold fuel do u think they should carry??

Looks like there's more to it than you and your buddy discovered on your blackberrys.
I mean no animosity toward you or your buddy, I have a hard time conveying my tone in type, sorry if it comes off confrontational, that's not my goal.

Merry Christmas and safe flying.

GT
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Old 19th Dec 2012, 20:31   #9 (permalink)
 
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35 minutes... That's 10 more minutes than we have to turnaround (A319/20)
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 00:20   #10 (permalink)
 
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Good Times, nice try, but the facts are the thirty minute holds were known to all operators {including little old us in our little corporate aircraft} on top of this when a system such as was is sitting over the Ottawa region yesterday, even the junior left seater should know that its just plain dumb to dispatch without some "Granny Gas", Yes most flights did get either a hold or speed reduction {including us} but all but one put enough JetA or 100LL in the tanks to take care of this, all landing in CYOW after some delays, but not "your boy", however this is not the point, the point being is that West Jet, in my experience seem incapable of telling the truth when it comes to delays, there is not a single TAF METAR or runway surface report {on our data link by the way, dont own a Blackbery} to justify their position that they returned to Toronto as the weather was" too bad "{thats a direct quote from one of your staff by the way} So, nice try with your first post , but "methinks thou dost protest too much".

Last edited by clunckdriver; 20th Dec 2012 at 00:41.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 02:44   #11 (permalink)
 
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And the award for BEST ARMCHAIR QUARTER BACKING FROM THE SIDELINES GOES TO.....


ClunckDriver.


Dude - it amazes me how you seem to have all the answers. While I don't know why the turn back .. perhaps the extra fuel put them over landing weight.. (Can happen on shorter segments) Perhaps the RSC was unacceptable once they put the numbers in the FMC.. Perhaps the Captain was having a slow day and totally for all shits and giggles decided to abandon the destination - just to change it up ( cause i'm sure that was on his/her plan for the day)

Point is - neither of us really know.

But hey - like I tell anyone who doesn't like the service or the product. Please feel free to shop elsewhere.

WJP
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 07:24   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Pretty much everything goes through Calgary at some time during the day, where there are de-icing delays for 6 months of the year and TS delays for the other 6 months.
So there are icing or TS delays every day of the year in Calgary? Really?

Give me a break!
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 11:54   #13 (permalink)
 
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WJA Pilot, thanks for the award! However you seem to miss the point, its about West Jet not being up front with their customers, not the fact that they returned to CYYZ, read the Notams/CFI reports/TAFS/METARS, weather was NOT the reason for the turn back, so again, just dont lie to the public, there is no need to explain everythig in minute detail if it lets say a mechanicl problem, but in this day of instant information you will be caught lying every time. By your logic one is to belive that all other captains {inclung some of yours} ignored all the above information but your boy got it right. By the way, it looks like another day in paradise looking at Fridays forecast for CYOW, glad Im going South!

Last edited by clunckdriver; 20th Dec 2012 at 16:58.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 14:19   #14 (permalink)
 
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Hey Clunk, I thought you had been in aviation for awhile but if this was the first time an airline lied to you, you've lived a charmed life. I used to be saint-like until I got into aviation; I lied so much as as flight follower/dispatcher, I didn't even believe myself sometimes. Every airline lies. To its customers, employees, stockholders and suppliers. I used to deadhead on a regular basis from Newark on Jazz. The first flight of the day would almost never depart and weather was usually the reason given. We knew that it was a crewing issue and would take it all in stride. Sometimes we would call our dispatch and ask what the weather was like back home. Clear and calm was usually the answer. One day, the answer was 0/0 and the lie was actually true. That sometimes happens.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 14:58   #15 (permalink)
 
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Prat X, what you say has more than a grain of truth, however its going to need really creative lying in this information age we are living in! My favourite story is from a friend who had number four engine on a DC4 depart its rightfull position on the wing, due to a prop blade failure, after they had things squared away he was making his PA to the pax which was along the lines of "we have a small problem " he then realized that all the SLF could clearlly see the problen, so he corected himself with, "lets face it folks, what I just said is a crock, we in fact have a bloody major problem "{he was an Aus, so bloody was the standard adjective} the response from the SLF was a round of cheers and applause, there is a lesson here for all of us!

Last edited by clunckdriver; 20th Dec 2012 at 15:14.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 17:35   #16 (permalink)
 
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Good Afternoon Clunkdriver:
It would appear you have kicked over a hornet's nest here. That being said besides the lying part which might or might not be in the Kool-Aid that is consumed in we should consider the following:

Remember the illegal use of the employee travel site where it was proven they were using Air Canada Propriety information to adjust their prices?

Air Canada countered their disingenuous misrepresentations in court and was winning the case when West Jet threw in the towel

For those who have convient memory loss that Clyde Beddoe came to YUL and bought Robert Milton lunch at Queen Elizabeth Hotel, "donated" 10 million to Dreams take Flight the charity that Air Canada Employees support that take children in terminal phases of cancer to Disneyland for a day and apologized in the media for doing so

Also did they not have a problem with Transport Canada with their maintenance in their first couple of years when they almost lost their Operating Certificate? If I remember correctly as it was a while back Air Canada said they would honour their tickets so the passengers would not be stuck
As far as their service goes some business friends I know decided to try West Jet and came back to Air Canada because they could not do work on board because of all the corny jokes on the P/A, the pass the toilet paper roll front to rear to see which side gets off the flight first etc.
In closing I will add this which I feel is egregious behavior on the part of West Jet executives who are alleged to be lobbying the Finance Minister against extending the pension holiday that Air Canada needs to force Air Canada into bankruptcy again.
To those who would say good ask your selves this who would want to step in to take the place under the provisions of the Air Canada Participation Act ie be bilingual, be mandated to have 4 maintenance bases, forced to fly to communities that are not viable, head quarters forced to be in Montreal and the list goes on I am sure if the employees of West Jet had to work under the same constraints the Kool-Aid would not be as palatable for them.
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Old 20th Dec 2012, 18:32   #17 (permalink)
 
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A330, yes lots of interesting stuff in your post, however I doubt that West Jets behavior is much different than most of the corporate world {including at least one of my own kin, as you most proberbly know} having said that I find lying to the public to be even more offensive than most other corporate sins, I have just recieved an email that the "status board" at WJ showed this flight as "unknown" for a period of time, this Im told did little to calm at least one person waiting for the flight who is I would gather by the email I recieved , a very nervous flyer, I have no way, or any interest ,in verifying this but the last time I saw this at an airport the flight in question was burning just short of the runway {without any mortalities} We will be heading South before tonights crap get fully into its stride, the Ottawa Valley methinks is going to be a mess for most of Friday!

Last edited by clunckdriver; 20th Dec 2012 at 19:18.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 12:16   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2010
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Quote:
While I don't know why the turn back .. perhaps the extra fuel put them over landing weight.. (Can happen on shorter segments) WJP
Good Morning WJAPilot:

Thank you for your erudite posting as I found it very enlightening that Transport Canada will allow a take off that will allow an aircraft to arrive at destination over maximum certified landing weight and land. Old days if one had to add weather fuel or holding fuel one would add trip fuel onto the maximum landing weight in order to have aircraft arrive for landing at or below maximum landing weight. This would be crosschecked by operating crew and flight dispatch as well for safety.
I was under the impression that unless there was an emergency such as ill passenger or an abnormal one had to arrive at maximum certified landing weight or if there was a landing W.A.T. that had to be inspected.
I will be researching this item of yours with a friend that is in Transport Canada if this change is actually in effect.

Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 23rd Dec 2012 at 12:18.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 13:42   #19 (permalink)
 
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Yes, lets continue to set out to shaft one another.
Nothing illegal ever goes on at AC now does it?
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 15:14   #20 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Quote:




While I don't know
why the turn back .. perhaps the extra fuel put them over landing weight.. (Can
happen on shorter segments) WJP

Good Morning WJAPilot:

Thank you for your erudite posting as
I found it very enlightening that Transport Canada will allow a take off that
will allow an aircraft to arrive at destination over maximum certified landing
weight and land. Old days if one had to add weather fuel or holding fuel one
would add trip fuel onto the maximum landing weight in order to have aircraft
arrive for landing at or below maximum landing weight. This would be
crosschecked by operating crew and flight dispatch as well for safety.


I was under the impression that unless there was an emergency such as ill passenger or an abnormal one had to arrive at maximum certified landing weight or if there was a landing W.A.T. that had to be inspected.
I will be researching this item of yours with a friend that is in Transport Canada if this change is actually in effect.
As I read it, taking additional hold fuel would (may) have put them over hence not being able to hold long enough to get in.

No need to yell...perhaps less axe grinding. He even said he was speculating.

There are NO pillars of virtue in the business.
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