TR mandatory
Join Date: May 2009
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Yes, a 200-hour pilot can fly a bizjet around without “dropping out of the sky”; as long as nothing goes wrong. Now, add in the normal tasks of managing the bags, the handler or FBO relations, servicing the plane, and top it all with a couple of abnormals like maximum range trip, a mountainous airport for the first time, an international clearance problem, 200-550m in snow crosswind landing and it becomes more problematic. I’ve been where CL300 comes from and it ain’t pretty. You’re flying solo!
GF
GF
Join Date: Mar 2004
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And yes there is some good guys, but the average is going down on the last 10/15 years.
Or has it more to do with the fact it just becomes more and more expensive and almost impossible to the average dude that went to the glider flying club etcetc. ?
Join Date: Aug 2000
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I have been a flying instructor since 1992. First under German national regulations, then JAR FCL, then EU FCL now EASA part FCL. The changes in the training syllabi and flying hour requirements have been minimal - at least in Germany - so this can not be the prime cause.
But in my observation the type of person who wants to be a pilot has changed a lot. In "my" days almost every student pilot had started to build model aircraft in their youth and/or flown gliders at an aeroclub at the earliest possible legal age. Many trained in a different profession first and worked beside taking their flying lessons. The average age of flying students was between 25 and 30 then. Now the majority are 18 or 19 year olds, many of which have not worked a single day in their life. They spend their classroom time playing around with their smartphones and study for the exam (which they can sit as often as they want now as opposed to our old regulations where two fails would exclude you for good - here is one real change brought about by JAR/EASA) by memorising the correct answer. Luckily there still are some exceptions and some of them even find their way into business aviation!
But in my observation the type of person who wants to be a pilot has changed a lot. In "my" days almost every student pilot had started to build model aircraft in their youth and/or flown gliders at an aeroclub at the earliest possible legal age. Many trained in a different profession first and worked beside taking their flying lessons. The average age of flying students was between 25 and 30 then. Now the majority are 18 or 19 year olds, many of which have not worked a single day in their life. They spend their classroom time playing around with their smartphones and study for the exam (which they can sit as often as they want now as opposed to our old regulations where two fails would exclude you for good - here is one real change brought about by JAR/EASA) by memorising the correct answer. Luckily there still are some exceptions and some of them even find their way into business aviation!
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Max, thats exactly what I meant. I have worked my way up, sometimes doing 5,6,7 hrs of airplane washing and waxing after an 8 hrs shift in the factory and working on week ends etc.
Plus I was being sarcastic about the EASA. The new rules have made the ATPL way more expensive - without changing all that much.
Plus I was being sarcastic about the EASA. The new rules have made the ATPL way more expensive - without changing all that much.
There's no substitute for 1500 hours single pilot IFR in a light twin plus some bush flying experience.
In my experience there is the odd unicorn who does well without that base but as a general rule, for global corporate flying, you just cant beat experience at making your won decisions and being alone in the dark.
In my experience there is the odd unicorn who does well without that base but as a general rule, for global corporate flying, you just cant beat experience at making your won decisions and being alone in the dark.
Yes, bring Darwin back to aviation. But, there is something to bringing back people that want to fly and will do anything for the chance to do so.
Uberwang,
I’ve done thousands of hours of instruction, mil and civil. In the military, I’ve taken two lieutenants with 300 hours each to Europe on the NATS or to Australia, but motivating them wasn’t an issue. I thought the T-6 and T-1 programs in the USAF turned out well prepared pilots- motiviated, knowledgeable and ready. They quickly understood CRM, the various few positions’ jobs and took responsibility. It was because they were trained in a pass/fail system that didn’t mind tossing the unable or unwilling. This is not th3 case in many civil Flight schools and just reciting “the book” doesn’t cut it in the real world where application of the book is required.
If pilots aren’t hacking it, yes, captains need to provide training. If motivation is the issue, the door is next.
GF
Uberwang,
I’ve done thousands of hours of instruction, mil and civil. In the military, I’ve taken two lieutenants with 300 hours each to Europe on the NATS or to Australia, but motivating them wasn’t an issue. I thought the T-6 and T-1 programs in the USAF turned out well prepared pilots- motiviated, knowledgeable and ready. They quickly understood CRM, the various few positions’ jobs and took responsibility. It was because they were trained in a pass/fail system that didn’t mind tossing the unable or unwilling. This is not th3 case in many civil Flight schools and just reciting “the book” doesn’t cut it in the real world where application of the book is required.
If pilots aren’t hacking it, yes, captains need to provide training. If motivation is the issue, the door is next.
GF
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Luckily those days are gone as are commercially operated piston twins. An entry level aircraft for a newbie in the year 2018 is a CJ2 or a Mustang or a Phenom 100. Even the KingAirs are a dying species around here. I really would have loved to start my flying career on a Citation 1 (or whatever there was in 1992) and just bypassed those piston twins and turboprops. Would I be a worse pilot now beacause of that? I stongly doubt it. I am who I am regardless of what I fly. And the same is true for every other pilot.
There is no substitute for air experience. A lot of that experience does have a tendancey to teach us what not to do, also.
Air experience cannot be learnt in the classroom. You cant teach ability or proven, good desision making.
Air experience cannot be learnt in the classroom. You cant teach ability or proven, good desision making.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Yes. But that experience does not need to be gained in a (now) 35 year old twin piston death trap. Any right hand seat position in any decent and safe aeroplane anywhere on this planet is a good place to get flying experience.
Couldn't agree more with "what next". Too often, especially in the U.S. do I hear the opinion that flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of commercial pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line. Wrong. It's just plain dangerous. We all make enough mistakes during our training and more importantly once out of training and all those mistakes teach us valuable lessons but one should not have to tempt fait by engaging in such cowboy flying.
Couldn't agree more with "what next". Too often, especially in the U.S. do I hear the opinion that flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of commercial pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line. Wrong. It's just plain dangerous. We all make enough mistakes during our training and more importantly once out of training and all those mistakes teach us valuable lessons but one should not have to tempt fait by engaging in such cowboy flying.
Air experience does place one in a better position to stand up to commercial pressure.
Couldn't agree more with "what next". Too often, especially in the U.S. do I hear the opinion that flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of commercial pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line. Wrong. It's just plain dangerous. We all make enough mistakes during our training and more importantly once out of training and all those mistakes teach us valuable lessons but one should not have to tempt fait by engaging in such cowboy flying.
You can’t buy this experience. It’s NOT “Cowboy”; it’s real world stuff. Those lessons of single pilot IMC with steam gauges stayed with me thru my career. Guess what, not much fazed me later in a Global.
GF
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Let's put this in perspective. You are down route and one of your company airplanes is deadheading to your location. Your wife and children have a chance to ride on the plane to visit you. Who would you rather have up front if the $h!t hits the fan and things go sideways. I for one don't want some 300 hour newbie that paid for a type rating trying to sort things out with my family in the back.
While I agree, someone has to train them, I would rather start with a FO that has some real world experience under his belt. I realize that long ago I was a 300 hour newbie but I didn't expect to jump into the right seat of a jet at that point in my career. I did the whole flight instructor thing, single pilot light twin charters, single pilot turboprops, etc... (By the way, all structured, no "cowboy stuff") When I did move on to multi pilot airplanes I had a solid foundation of stick and rudder skills, knew what CRM was, and most of all, a good attitude toward the "experienced guy in the left seat that was training me at that level. I'm pretty sure he was pleased that he wasn't starting from zero.
My 0.02 worth. Carry on.
While I agree, someone has to train them, I would rather start with a FO that has some real world experience under his belt. I realize that long ago I was a 300 hour newbie but I didn't expect to jump into the right seat of a jet at that point in my career. I did the whole flight instructor thing, single pilot light twin charters, single pilot turboprops, etc... (By the way, all structured, no "cowboy stuff") When I did move on to multi pilot airplanes I had a solid foundation of stick and rudder skills, knew what CRM was, and most of all, a good attitude toward the "experienced guy in the left seat that was training me at that level. I'm pretty sure he was pleased that he wasn't starting from zero.
My 0.02 worth. Carry on.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I´d like to submit, that we are all discussing from slightly different angles...
Going down the USAF route is complete different from self founded, say, in Germany. French circumstance were vastly different fro the british etcetc.
In reality the PPL, CPL/IFR, FI then ATPL route was maybe more a typical way in the US for civil pilots than it was over here in Europe. In Germany we have had a relative big influx from former fighter pilots at, out of the service at age 42. And so on.
However, I don´t think the "quality" has changed all that much. Some are less motivated, some are more of the knob pusher type, some are plainly good and better than I ever was.... but then the dinosaurs got extinct and not the newer, smarter types of species. Maybe its now just "our turn" now or soon ?
Going down the USAF route is complete different from self founded, say, in Germany. French circumstance were vastly different fro the british etcetc.
In reality the PPL, CPL/IFR, FI then ATPL route was maybe more a typical way in the US for civil pilots than it was over here in Europe. In Germany we have had a relative big influx from former fighter pilots at, out of the service at age 42. And so on.
However, I don´t think the "quality" has changed all that much. Some are less motivated, some are more of the knob pusher type, some are plainly good and better than I ever was.... but then the dinosaurs got extinct and not the newer, smarter types of species. Maybe its now just "our turn" now or soon ?
His dudeness,
Completely agree. Those of us from the older era think our ways are the only ways, but, if we’re honest, we know that’s not true. We thought “glass” cockpits were (and are) a revolution, but if a pilot started out in G1000 Cessna 172, why would he need to know how to fly steam gauges? Professionally, he won’t ever fly them. It was a nice talent, but as useful as a flight engineer’s license. Individuals vary, yes, but to say the new generation is “not like we were” just shows our age.
GF
Completely agree. Those of us from the older era think our ways are the only ways, but, if we’re honest, we know that’s not true. We thought “glass” cockpits were (and are) a revolution, but if a pilot started out in G1000 Cessna 172, why would he need to know how to fly steam gauges? Professionally, he won’t ever fly them. It was a nice talent, but as useful as a flight engineer’s license. Individuals vary, yes, but to say the new generation is “not like we were” just shows our age.
GF
Lots of good comments and yes times are changing.
Glass cockpit, new diesel piston, etc.
My points always been that without some real command time under your belt you never really know what sh&t hitting the fan and having to deal with it is all about.
That’s why certain airlines used to want 500 command. Now ICUS seems to suffice.
Glass cockpit, new diesel piston, etc.
My points always been that without some real command time under your belt you never really know what sh&t hitting the fan and having to deal with it is all about.
That’s why certain airlines used to want 500 command. Now ICUS seems to suffice.
