C525 single pilot rating
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C525 single pilot rating
Hey everyone!
I have a co-pilot rating on C525 and have approximately 300hours on type (all on CJ1+ and 550h total time) and wondering if there are any requirements to take a single pilot rating on the type considering experience etc? My license is a JAA.
Regards,
Max
I have a co-pilot rating on C525 and have approximately 300hours on type (all on CJ1+ and 550h total time) and wondering if there are any requirements to take a single pilot rating on the type considering experience etc? My license is a JAA.
Regards,
Max
There is no such thing as a "co-pilot" C525 type-rating, nor a "single-pilot rating" in JARland - there is just a single C525 type-rating.
If you want to fly a C525 as P2, then you must hold the type-rating, MCC, IR/ME and CPL (a pre-requisite for the MCC).
If you want to fly a C525 single-pilot, then you need C525 type-rating, IR/ME Single-Pilot, and at least a PPL.
So in your case, all you need to do is pass IR/ME Single Pilot - on a simulator or even a MEP if you like - then you will be qualified to fly single-pilot.
If you want to fly a C525 as P2, then you must hold the type-rating, MCC, IR/ME and CPL (a pre-requisite for the MCC).
If you want to fly a C525 single-pilot, then you need C525 type-rating, IR/ME Single-Pilot, and at least a PPL.
So in your case, all you need to do is pass IR/ME Single Pilot - on a simulator or even a MEP if you like - then you will be qualified to fly single-pilot.
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Okeeey...well then it has to be a rating divided in 2 sections cause you can do the flight test and act as P1 or P2. In my case I did it as P2 and it's stated in my license "co-pilot C525".
Anyway, how about flight experience? Is there any requirements there? Maybe from Cessna? Insurance?
Coming out direct from school with 220 TT with a fresh single pilot rating on C525 sounds scary. I mean, if the pilot flies alone..
Anyway, how about flight experience? Is there any requirements there? Maybe from Cessna? Insurance?
Coming out direct from school with 220 TT with a fresh single pilot rating on C525 sounds scary. I mean, if the pilot flies alone..
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I can't speak with experience in JAR ops...but what I can tell you is that in the US..
You get the 525 type either as a single pilot captain, or as a non single pilot captain.
All advertised info states that I found under JAR is that single pilot OPs if forbidden for commercial operations. How they define commercial ops is probably charter for that bird.
When you talk 'single pilot' in Europe, in a jet, the fangs come out with everyone saying that you can't do it over there. I beg to differ if flying a US bird, under ICAO, the Frogs and such working under ICAO standards, should accept it, along with the SP waiver in CE500s and such. I haven't tested that theory, so I can't say for sure.
Training-wise your hard pressed to pass an SP type in a jet with your flight hours....it's an ATP single pilot type ride.
Insurance-wise your hard pressed to get the boss to pay the premium of what they will charge to have you fly that bird, if you pass the ride...
That said, I have seen all sorts in corporate aircraft...if the boss likes you, your marrying his daughter, and you let him win at golf, he may pay for your training and cover the six figure insurance premium.
Doable? Sure. Expensive? Yes. Can it be done in Europe? Regs says yes, but you might get hassled in France as an example when they see you hop out of jet sans copilot.
You get the 525 type either as a single pilot captain, or as a non single pilot captain.
All advertised info states that I found under JAR is that single pilot OPs if forbidden for commercial operations. How they define commercial ops is probably charter for that bird.
When you talk 'single pilot' in Europe, in a jet, the fangs come out with everyone saying that you can't do it over there. I beg to differ if flying a US bird, under ICAO, the Frogs and such working under ICAO standards, should accept it, along with the SP waiver in CE500s and such. I haven't tested that theory, so I can't say for sure.
Training-wise your hard pressed to pass an SP type in a jet with your flight hours....it's an ATP single pilot type ride.
Insurance-wise your hard pressed to get the boss to pay the premium of what they will charge to have you fly that bird, if you pass the ride...
That said, I have seen all sorts in corporate aircraft...if the boss likes you, your marrying his daughter, and you let him win at golf, he may pay for your training and cover the six figure insurance premium.
Doable? Sure. Expensive? Yes. Can it be done in Europe? Regs says yes, but you might get hassled in France as an example when they see you hop out of jet sans copilot.
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I have 2,600 hours as a rotor wing flight engineer in the US Army.
Other than those just about worthless hours, I had 1,200 fixed wing total, 200 multi, 200 high performance.
I was insured on a phenom 100 (now a phenom 300) single pilot, part 91 ops, 10 mil in liability.
Insurance was $15,000 a year.
It can be done. But finding a boss that will take the risk on you is the hard part.
Under the FAA, they will issue a type, but with a second in command only restriction. They can also issue a type with SIC required for crewed PIC types.
With that being said, the difference between a crewed SIC ride and a single pilot ride is night and day. Its controlled chaos at times.
Other than those just about worthless hours, I had 1,200 fixed wing total, 200 multi, 200 high performance.
I was insured on a phenom 100 (now a phenom 300) single pilot, part 91 ops, 10 mil in liability.
Insurance was $15,000 a year.
It can be done. But finding a boss that will take the risk on you is the hard part.
Under the FAA, they will issue a type, but with a second in command only restriction. They can also issue a type with SIC required for crewed PIC types.
With that being said, the difference between a crewed SIC ride and a single pilot ride is night and day. Its controlled chaos at times.
Doable? Sure. Expensive? Yes. Can it be done in Europe? Regs says yes, but you might get hassled in France as an example when they see you hop out of jet sans copilot.
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Trim -
I want to believe you but this aviation forum is the seventh level of hell for misinformation in this field.
If you can't fly into France in a Falcon, without a typed copilot they ground the plane. True story.
So all day long SP flying in Europe should be legal, but I ponder that given the very very limited amount of jet pilots actually flying SP, plus flying under the 'waiver' in Europe isn't granted and trained for, then I reserve judgment that you are part of a legion of Citation drivers in Europe flying single pilot when it's actually pretty rare here in the states.
I want to believe you but this aviation forum is the seventh level of hell for misinformation in this field.
If you can't fly into France in a Falcon, without a typed copilot they ground the plane. True story.
So all day long SP flying in Europe should be legal, but I ponder that given the very very limited amount of jet pilots actually flying SP, plus flying under the 'waiver' in Europe isn't granted and trained for, then I reserve judgment that you are part of a legion of Citation drivers in Europe flying single pilot when it's actually pretty rare here in the states.
If you can't fly into France in a Falcon, without a typed copilot they ground the plane. True story.
Here is a list of EASA type ratings
http://www.easa.eu.int/certification...t-07092011.pdf
In table 7 you will see which jets can be flown single-pilot (in private ops only of course).
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Trim - You missed the point...there is no rule that states you have to have a Falcon typed pilot in the right seat, other then what the French think you should have...now let that sink in. So what other phantom rules are they going to enforce over there? I can guarantee SP ops would irk them much more.
So if we have a legion of people bitching and whining about SP ops in the states, only 100 waivered per year in the states, not that many CJs running around...just how many SP CJs am I supposed to believe are running around Europe that has a fraction of US corporate air traffic?
So if we have a legion of people bitching and whining about SP ops in the states, only 100 waivered per year in the states, not that many CJs running around...just how many SP CJs am I supposed to believe are running around Europe that has a fraction of US corporate air traffic?
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there is no rule that states you have to have a Falcon typed pilot in the right seat
9.1 Qualifications
The pilot-in-command shall ensure that the licences of each flight crew member have been issued or rendered valid by the State of Registry, and are properly rated and of current validity, and shall be satisfied that flight crew members have maintained competence.
9.2 Composition of the flight crew
The number and composition of the flight crew shall not be less than that specified in the flight manual or other documents associated with the certificate of airworthiness.
Why do you think the FAA introduced the SIC rating?
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I used to fly a Manx registered CJ into and out of mainland Europe and was once ramp checked in Malaga (Spain). I was often single pilot and in this case the check person didn't ask whether I had a co with me.
Generally, I think European checkers are more open to discussion than FAA ones.
Generally, I think European checkers are more open to discussion than FAA ones.
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Sort of easy...well theoretically.
C525 is a FAR/JAR 23 airplane. -> class rating in JAR/EASA land. Only PIC rating (albeit that has changed, at least in Germany there were SIC ratings in 23 aircraft.)
FA50 is a 25 airplane. -> typerating, PIC or SIC ratings issued.
C525 is a FAR/JAR 23 airplane. -> class rating in JAR/EASA land. Only PIC rating (albeit that has changed, at least in Germany there were SIC ratings in 23 aircraft.)
FA50 is a 25 airplane. -> typerating, PIC or SIC ratings issued.
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The original poster on this thread raises a very interesting question, which I have come across quite a few times now.
The C525 is certified in Europe as a single pilot aircraft (SPA). When I did my European rating in the 525, the only way you could get the 525 on your licence was (just like any other single pilot rating) to do all the flying yourself, from the left seat. There is no such thing as a "co-pilot rating" on the C525 on a JAA licence. (This is different in the USA, where you can get a C525 rating that requires you to have another pilot in the cockpit with you; in FAA terms the C525 can be operated by two pilots, neither of whom holds the single pilot C525S rating. That is not possible on a European licence - in Europe the PIC must hold the single pilot rating).
Since then I have heard several stories of people in Europe paying for a 525 rating course, and then (1) sitting in the RIGHT seat during the check ride, and (2) ending up with what they believe to be a "co pilot" licence. I am quite concerned about this.
Don't get confused with the fact that for commercial transport operations in Europe the operating rules say you need to have two rated pilots on board - that's purely a safety/redundancy issue. It is still a single pilot aircraft. There is no such thing as a "co-pilot" licence for the 525. (The effect for commercial ops is that both the pilots in the flight deck have to hold the single-pilot rating, but because they are doing multi-crew commercial ops, they are also supposed to hold the MCC rating).
It is possible for you to have some other restriction on your licence that stops you acting as the single pilot-in-command. Perhaps that is what you have - you've got the C525 on your licence (which is a single pilot rating), with a medical restriction that says you need another rated pilot on the flight deck.
Trim Stab hazards a guess that perhaps you don't have an appropriate instrument rating - which would be IR/SPA/ME. That would also be a barrier to practical operations, but to be pedantic, would not stop you flying your C525 sinlge pilot on a VFR trip.
But outside those example restrictions the C525 is a single pilot aircraft, so there's ONLY a single pilot rating in Europe, and there's no such thing as a JAA C525 co-pilot rating.
Which raises the interesting question: All those of you out there who were sold a co-pilot rating - and perhaps have managed to get someone to issue you with that written on a licence - I would be very interested to know (a) who sold you that; and (b) what does it REALLY say on your actual licence?
The C525 is certified in Europe as a single pilot aircraft (SPA). When I did my European rating in the 525, the only way you could get the 525 on your licence was (just like any other single pilot rating) to do all the flying yourself, from the left seat. There is no such thing as a "co-pilot rating" on the C525 on a JAA licence. (This is different in the USA, where you can get a C525 rating that requires you to have another pilot in the cockpit with you; in FAA terms the C525 can be operated by two pilots, neither of whom holds the single pilot C525S rating. That is not possible on a European licence - in Europe the PIC must hold the single pilot rating).
Since then I have heard several stories of people in Europe paying for a 525 rating course, and then (1) sitting in the RIGHT seat during the check ride, and (2) ending up with what they believe to be a "co pilot" licence. I am quite concerned about this.
Don't get confused with the fact that for commercial transport operations in Europe the operating rules say you need to have two rated pilots on board - that's purely a safety/redundancy issue. It is still a single pilot aircraft. There is no such thing as a "co-pilot" licence for the 525. (The effect for commercial ops is that both the pilots in the flight deck have to hold the single-pilot rating, but because they are doing multi-crew commercial ops, they are also supposed to hold the MCC rating).
It is possible for you to have some other restriction on your licence that stops you acting as the single pilot-in-command. Perhaps that is what you have - you've got the C525 on your licence (which is a single pilot rating), with a medical restriction that says you need another rated pilot on the flight deck.
Trim Stab hazards a guess that perhaps you don't have an appropriate instrument rating - which would be IR/SPA/ME. That would also be a barrier to practical operations, but to be pedantic, would not stop you flying your C525 sinlge pilot on a VFR trip.
But outside those example restrictions the C525 is a single pilot aircraft, so there's ONLY a single pilot rating in Europe, and there's no such thing as a JAA C525 co-pilot rating.
Which raises the interesting question: All those of you out there who were sold a co-pilot rating - and perhaps have managed to get someone to issue you with that written on a licence - I would be very interested to know (a) who sold you that; and (b) what does it REALLY say on your actual licence?
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CJ Driver, in Germany you got the rating depending on the chair you made the checkride in(R/H checkride-SIC rating).
That has changed maybe 3 years ago (donīt nail me on that number)
That has changed maybe 3 years ago (donīt nail me on that number)
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Dudeness - well, yes, I have heard variations on that theme, so I have done a little bit more research.
I have found that it is indeed possible to take the check ride "multi-crew", which is intended to allow a pilot who will only ever operate under EU-OPS (thus requires two pilots on the flight deck) to achieve the rating as C525/MPA (and the associated IR renewal becomes IR/MPA/ME). The MPA stands for "multi-pilot-aircraft" in this case.
But - and here's the important distinction - it is not a "SIC" rating. It makes no distinction between PIC and SIC, and it is quite legal that a two-crew CJ could have two C525/MPA rated pilots - one of them is definitely PIC! This is much closer to the US system where you can be either C525S rated, or only C525 rated.
I thus stick to my basic theory that - even if you take the rating as a MPA - you should probably be sitting in the left seat for the checkride.
I have found that it is indeed possible to take the check ride "multi-crew", which is intended to allow a pilot who will only ever operate under EU-OPS (thus requires two pilots on the flight deck) to achieve the rating as C525/MPA (and the associated IR renewal becomes IR/MPA/ME). The MPA stands for "multi-pilot-aircraft" in this case.
But - and here's the important distinction - it is not a "SIC" rating. It makes no distinction between PIC and SIC, and it is quite legal that a two-crew CJ could have two C525/MPA rated pilots - one of them is definitely PIC! This is much closer to the US system where you can be either C525S rated, or only C525 rated.
I thus stick to my basic theory that - even if you take the rating as a MPA - you should probably be sitting in the left seat for the checkride.
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"I thus stick to my basic theory that - even if you take the rating as a MPA - you should probably be sitting in the left seat for the checkride."
This is certainly the case for the B350 King Air. It is possible to get a UK issued type rating, restricted to multi crew but the check ride is a "captains" check ride, in that you sit in the left seat for it and are expected to act as PIC for the check ride.
Having seen inside a C525 is it even possible to fly it from the right seat? I thought all the autopilot selections were above the P1's main instrument panel. This is unlike the B350 which has it all on the centre pedestal or on the glare shield (depending on whether it's EFIS85 or Proline).
This is certainly the case for the B350 King Air. It is possible to get a UK issued type rating, restricted to multi crew but the check ride is a "captains" check ride, in that you sit in the left seat for it and are expected to act as PIC for the check ride.
Having seen inside a C525 is it even possible to fly it from the right seat? I thought all the autopilot selections were above the P1's main instrument panel. This is unlike the B350 which has it all on the centre pedestal or on the glare shield (depending on whether it's EFIS85 or Proline).
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CJ Driver - you can defenitley get a license where it says co-pilot only. I got it. And it is not because the company i work for has "sold" me one, neither has flight safety, but it is because the CAA where I have my license has added this as a national rule/law or whatever it is called.
Also, one of my course mates also got it because he had less than 200hrs total time when he took his rating.
Also, one of my course mates also got it because he had less than 200hrs total time when he took his rating.
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Yeah that's right.
And single pilot jet ops are not very common...which begs to ask in Europe, just what a single pilot jet captain would step into in a day flying from France to Germany to Turkey...etc....
And single pilot jet ops are not very common...which begs to ask in Europe, just what a single pilot jet captain would step into in a day flying from France to Germany to Turkey...etc....
