Convair 880
 

I was reading in Pacific Flyer, a local aviation paper, about a group that is trying to restore a Convair 880 out in the Mojave desert.
They're looking for volunteers and information, but even if you can't offer any of that, you may want to take a look at their site.

If the restoration is like the original they may not be able to fly it into and out of major airports because of the black smoke generated by the engines. During the testing of the CV-880 in San Diego in 1958 they would lose hydraulics when they landed and operated the thrust reversers. This would cause the smoke to blow forward and be ingested into the two inboard engines causing them to shut down resulting in the loss of the two hydraulic pumps. The aircraft would be towed back to the takeoff area and the two engines restarted and the flight-testing would be resumed.

Another point is the extremely poor design for maintainability. Many of the primary and secondary flight control actuation and power systems were buried in the wing with no access panels. If a component were to fail Convair would develop a repair scheme and a hole would be made in the upper or lower wing skin in order to remove and replace the defective unit. A patch and doubler would be made and the hole patched over. If all of the elements of the flight control systems had not failed during normal service the new owners cannot verify the operational integrity of the power elements that have no access to them.

Also very interresting is the Convair 990 Restauration Project but if you look at the page, you´ll notice it has not been updated for about a year now. Looks like the problems were far to much for realisation.

Greetings Lu, are you trying to spoil my day-!! I flew the Convair 880 22 m for five years and loved every minute of it and I always thought those smoky engines were caused by poor combustion.
Do you by any chance know anything about the " balance boards" that formed part of the aileron spoiler interconnect system and what would be the effect if the balance boards were removed? I've been having a discussion about this with another 880 pilot and I can't recall what the " balance boards" did.
The sleepmaker is going great.
Regards,

KIFIS

TO: KIFIS

I’m sorry that I can’t add to my comments. Although I have flown on both 880s and 990s I really don’t know much about either aircraft. The reference to the smoke and smoke ingestion was based on personal observations while attending a class on the Atlas missile at the San Diego Convair plant. The access panels or lack thereof was also based on observation. I noticed on one particular flight on an 880 there were no access panels on the upper wing surface. On the return flight on another 880 there were several access panels at various points on the upper wing surface. I asked several of my colleagues that had worked on the design of the 880 and they told me about access points being made on an ad hoc basis whenever a device failed.

Well KIFIS...
Could it be that the "balance boards" used on the 880 were the same (more or less) as the "balance panels" used on the B707....ie: for aileron assist?

Lu Zukerman and 411A

Lu: Thanks for your input.

411A:
You are right, our discussion at this end is about what we call " balance boards " and you call " balance panels". You correctly call it " aileron assist " and our problem is that we can't remember anything about how they work. Some of us have flown the 880 with these " balance panels" disconnected (another story-!!) and the heaviness of the ailerons was extreme. Can you help with three questions:
(1) What do these panels look like?

(2) Where are they located:outside on the wing surface or inside as part of the mechanism?

(3) How do they actually exert pressure to assist the ailerons?

You would be forgiven if you form the opinion that I have never flown the 880 but I guess we are constantly reminded that one is never too old to learn.
Regards,

KIFIS

KIFIS

Balance panels on the B707 are (in effect) servo tabs located in a cavity just in front of each inboard and outboard aileron and provide aerodynamic boost.
One precaution that I recall was the requirement to be SURE that no ice or snow was in these cavities during an exterior inspection in cold weather. The FAA during my type ride was very insistant about this and mentioned that the ailerons would take "two men and a boy" to move if these panels were iced up. As the 707 was heavy enough in roll, suspect this was good advice. As I recall these panels were about one third the size of the aileron and could be clearly seen from the underside of the wing.

411A:

Thanks for the info. I recall on a number of occasions being told at technical courses and refreshers quote: " not to worry about that " unquote and it looks to me as if the the balance panels slipped through the net as a " don't worry about" item. Amazing, ignorance is bliss. Thanks again.

KIFIS

Anyway, the Convair "880" model designation was based on 880 feet per second, eh? :cool:

RESTORATION PROJECT
 

Hi everyone, It is great to see there is so much interest in the 880. I have not met one person who did not enjoy their time flying the 880. I unfortunately was not one of those that had a chance to fly it. They retired them 4 years before I got my airline job. I still love the plane and hope that with our dedication and with the volunteers we have, we can one day fly the plane again. Some people have wondered how we are going to tackle the tough work ahead. We wonder that ourselves sometimes. The people that I have met since becoming the number 2 guy in the organization have been terrific folks and I know with the right circumstances we can make it work. There may be a new twist to our story very soon which will bring about some major changes to the program and have us in the air sooner than we ever expected. I will check back often and update the forum when there are any changes. Please monitor our website at Convair880.com. We have a website monitor who is a volunteer and she has been very busy with her real job, so the site has not been updated in a while. She promises to make some of the changes soon. Thanks for any input you may have. We own the type certificates for the 880/990 and have yet to get through all the paperwork. If you want to volunteer, it is all in Mojave waiting to be put in some kind of order. Thanks, Team Convair:)

Convair 880
 

The CV880 was the strongest four engine jet transport ever built & probably ever will be built. Delta had a CV880 pull 6g in recovery from mishandling during training - the acft could not be faulted after extensive examination & returned to line service.

CV880 Handling Qualities
 

Like all Convair acft e.g. Metro 440 , the CV880 was built for performance first & so handling qualities were the trade off.
In the case of the CV880 the 35 degree sweepback & high wing loading caused problems to all on conversion.
If one mastered the acft ( some didn't ) the 880 was a delight to fly.

880 Memories
 

The last time I saw an 880 was late on a June
evening roughly fifteen years ago in Sitka,
Alaska. The plane was taxiing for take off and
was wearing no paint whatever. It was filled with
freshly caught fish headed south to market.

Which brings to mind another story involving
Alaska and the 880: when jet transports were
first being introduced, Alaska Airlines leased an
880 in an effort to compete with PamAm's 707's
flying between Seattle and Fairbanks. To promote
the service Alaska Airlines erected a billboard
near SeaTac which bore a picture of the 880 and
the headline "Four Jets Daily to Alaska." When
the accuracy of this message was challenged, the
very colorful president of Alaska Airlines
supposedly said words to the effect, "There are
two jets under each wing. Count 'em. One. Two.
Three. Four."

Fate of the CV880
 

ref Goodfellows report
Yes I believe the CV880 wound up hauling the more unsavoury freight around the Americas.
The airframe is good for another 50 years service but unfortunately it seems it is not possible to re-engine the Convair
(as for instance was the B727)
Question:
I heard that NASA at one time used the CV880 to train Shuttle Pilots, by climbing to 40,000 ft and doing a full glide approach at flight idle. The high wing loading of the 880 approximating the performance of the Shuttle . Does anyone out there in aviation cyberspace know if this is true ??

I flew the 880 in 1966 and loved it. I was F/O, but I got to know the plane quite well.

High approach speed, but great brakes. The FE panel was the best ever made, IMO. "Grease Jobs" were easy.

Howard Hughes had a hard-on for Convair, and kept insisting they meet the spec's they originally offered. This caused many nightmares, a much modified aircraft, and an unprofitable experience for Convair.:)

The ex NASA 990 was parked up at Mojave at least it was a year ago...

And another thing:
 

To: I.M. Esperto

Another thing that Howard Huge did that put Convair in a pickle was he refused to take delivery of a bunch of CV-440s, which tied up a major portion of Convairs’ funds. Convair also thought they had a winner with the F-102 and F-106 but other companies came up with aircraft better suited for the mission and they lost out on that. By that time Convair got the contract for the Atlas ICBM but they felt that the aircraft business would be the major breadwinner for the company. In order to staff the new Astronautics division they transferred much of the management dead wood from the aircraft to the missile division. When the aircraft division took a nosedive the missile division was up and running and it was being operated by a bunch of idiots.

:confused:

Lu - The 880 was to Convair what the L-1011 was to Lockheed.

Too bad really, as both were great aircraft in their time.

Convair 990
 

Thanks BOSS/R,
So it was a 990 NASA operated.
do you know if it is true that it was used to train Shuttle Pilots ??
the CV880/990 had by far the highest wing loading of any jet transport ever built so that gives some credence to the story.