BAe 146 - was it a commercial success?
But were the wings and engines not built in the States?
Paxing All Over The World
Speaking as Pax but as a long time admirer of the 146: as I understood it, when the 146 was being developed, the requirements for both Quiet + Short Runway, meant that the mini-quad option was the only one going?
Of course, the sector opened up with CRJs and ERJs but, was the 146 the real 'first' in regional jets?
Of course, the sector opened up with CRJs and ERJs but, was the 146 the real 'first' in regional jets?
I remember doing a regional jet presentation to a wizened old Air Canada exec in the late 80s.
When we were through he went to his filing cabinet and, telling us that we were 40 years too late, pulled out a photo of this:
When we were through he went to his filing cabinet and, telling us that we were 40 years too late, pulled out a photo of this:
In fairness I think that Fokker was earlier. I was offering the 146 as an F28 replacement to (e.g.) Air Niugini.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never liked being booked as pax on a 146. The view out of many of the windows is compromised by the anhedral wing and engine pods. And I've never heard a noisier flap motor!
It's an aerodynamic flow howl between the flap inner edge and the fuselage as it passes certain settings. It was a surprise to the development engineers on the maiden flight. BAe did develop a mod to overcome it, but I believe it weighs 100kg (= 2 pax) and thus was hardly adopted, apart from on the RAF aircraft which form what was once known as the Royal Flight, which have it.
Cabin crew say it's a convenient prompt to start service on the climbout and give Cabin Secure on approach.
Cabin crew say it's a convenient prompt to start service on the climbout and give Cabin Secure on approach.
For all its howling flaps and smelly sweaty-socks air conditioning, the little 146 used to take me from British West Oxfordshire to Frankfurt on Friday, back early on Monday with the delightful 'buzz' from Stansted. I used to leave home at 10:00 carrying an overnight bag, walk to the bus, change to the Stansted coach at Oxford, have a bite to eat at Stansted, fly UK2294 to Frankfurt, then get the S-bahn and tram to my lady friend's flat - a nice journey with no hassles....
But then it all started to go wrong. The coach from Oxford began to take an hour longer via some obscure shopping centre, so instead I'd drive to Stansted....only to find the car park buses getting bigger and less frequent. Then buzz was sold to Ryanair by the wooden-headed, wooden-footed KLM idiots.....and I never went to Stansted ever again.
So it was good-bye 146, hello again Lufthansa!
Shame - it was always such a friendly service. But the 146 cannot have been very economical on that route, given the cost of engine maintenance.
A slice of history I really miss.....
But then it all started to go wrong. The coach from Oxford began to take an hour longer via some obscure shopping centre, so instead I'd drive to Stansted....only to find the car park buses getting bigger and less frequent. Then buzz was sold to Ryanair by the wooden-headed, wooden-footed KLM idiots.....and I never went to Stansted ever again.
So it was good-bye 146, hello again Lufthansa!
Shame - it was always such a friendly service. But the 146 cannot have been very economical on that route, given the cost of engine maintenance.
A slice of history I really miss.....
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lanzarote/Butuan/Southern Yorkshire
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
The corvette was operated in commercial service by 3 (or maybe) 4 airlines in France, Air Alsace, Air Alps and TAT, also in Denmark with Sterling Airways.
Think it was in 12 seat feeder liner configuration.
I'm sure there was a 4th French airline but can't recall it.
Think it was in 12 seat feeder liner configuration.
I'm sure there was a 4th French airline but can't recall it.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: london
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"commercial success?"; no, but it had never been so intended - it was a political invention.
1971. China has ordered (to be) 35 Trident 2E/3B, talking about lots of other things, as US at that time had an embargo. What else would you like? More than 2 engines to get into Lhasa, they said. So Brit Govt. made Launch Aid available 8/73 to initiate 146. Ceased funding it 10/74 after US lifted its embargo and CAAC ordered 10 707-320B/C, with more products to follow.
29/4/77, Brit. Govt. becomes proud owner of BAe...with no civil work (the ex-HSAL side had A300B wings, but sales were pitiful). Through to mid-78 Govt. tried to find civil workload. Boeing and MDC offered workshare on paper projects, all confining BAe. to metal-bashing subordinate. New BA put out a tender for European short haul, to which BAe. bid a resurrected 146, lost 3/78 to 737-200ADV, submitted on a (then-innovative) walkaway lease scheme, where Boeing laid off future loss-risk into the capital markets. BAe. studied and learned.
In Autumn,1978 PM Callaghan defined the future of UK civil Aero. He declined airframe involvement in 757/767/MD11, while Aiding RR to bid for their engines; he funded (to be >£200Mn) wing for A310; bought back (£250Mn) into Airbus Industrie (20%); and relaunched 146 (10/7/78) with £250Mn Launch Aid, with risk-sharing partners Short (pods), SAAB (back end) and AVCO (ALF502 and wing): no imminent prospects, but no better 'ole to occupy designers (various JET and X-11 schemes not launched).
146, later RJ, sales were languid. BAe. was privatised 2/81; its Commercial Aircraft Division reported its first profit in 1998, of £12Mn. before Provision of £51Mn. necessary for its Asset Management Organisation to unload Residual Value risk into capital markets. In effect the risk-bearing customer for most 146/RJ was BAe.
1971. China has ordered (to be) 35 Trident 2E/3B, talking about lots of other things, as US at that time had an embargo. What else would you like? More than 2 engines to get into Lhasa, they said. So Brit Govt. made Launch Aid available 8/73 to initiate 146. Ceased funding it 10/74 after US lifted its embargo and CAAC ordered 10 707-320B/C, with more products to follow.
29/4/77, Brit. Govt. becomes proud owner of BAe...with no civil work (the ex-HSAL side had A300B wings, but sales were pitiful). Through to mid-78 Govt. tried to find civil workload. Boeing and MDC offered workshare on paper projects, all confining BAe. to metal-bashing subordinate. New BA put out a tender for European short haul, to which BAe. bid a resurrected 146, lost 3/78 to 737-200ADV, submitted on a (then-innovative) walkaway lease scheme, where Boeing laid off future loss-risk into the capital markets. BAe. studied and learned.
In Autumn,1978 PM Callaghan defined the future of UK civil Aero. He declined airframe involvement in 757/767/MD11, while Aiding RR to bid for their engines; he funded (to be >£200Mn) wing for A310; bought back (£250Mn) into Airbus Industrie (20%); and relaunched 146 (10/7/78) with £250Mn Launch Aid, with risk-sharing partners Short (pods), SAAB (back end) and AVCO (ALF502 and wing): no imminent prospects, but no better 'ole to occupy designers (various JET and X-11 schemes not launched).
146, later RJ, sales were languid. BAe. was privatised 2/81; its Commercial Aircraft Division reported its first profit in 1998, of £12Mn. before Provision of £51Mn. necessary for its Asset Management Organisation to unload Residual Value risk into capital markets. In effect the risk-bearing customer for most 146/RJ was BAe.
Also I remember the Aerospatiale Corvette....
Might you also be thinking of the Dassault Mercure ( a bit like an A-320 precursor)?
It did 20 years or so of good service around Europe with Air Inter, but was a little ahead of its time in some ways and didn't get big orders.
Last edited by Haraka; 18th Aug 2015 at 10:07.
For all its howling flaps and smelly sweaty-socks air conditioning, the little 146 used to take me from British West Oxfordshire to Frankfurt on Friday, back early on Monday with the delightful 'buzz' from Stansted. I used to leave home at 10:00 carrying an overnight bag, walk to the bus, change to the Stansted coach at Oxford, have a bite to eat at Stansted, fly UK2294 to Frankfurt, then get the S-bahn and tram to my lady friend's flat - a nice journey with no hassles....
But then it all started to go wrong. The coach from Oxford began to take an hour longer via some obscure shopping centre, so instead I'd drive to Stansted....only to find the car park buses getting bigger and less frequent. Then buzz was sold to Ryanair by the wooden-headed, wooden-footed KLM idiots.....and I never went to Stansted ever again.
So it was good-bye 146, hello again Lufthansa!
Shame - it was always such a friendly service. But the 146 cannot have been very economical on that route, given the cost of engine maintenance.
A slice of history I really miss.....
But then it all started to go wrong. The coach from Oxford began to take an hour longer via some obscure shopping centre, so instead I'd drive to Stansted....only to find the car park buses getting bigger and less frequent. Then buzz was sold to Ryanair by the wooden-headed, wooden-footed KLM idiots.....and I never went to Stansted ever again.
So it was good-bye 146, hello again Lufthansa!
Shame - it was always such a friendly service. But the 146 cannot have been very economical on that route, given the cost of engine maintenance.
A slice of history I really miss.....
It says "Jetliner" on it, which is quite a clue.
Avro Canada C102 if you prefer. . .
It was a 36-seater, like its contemporary the de Havilland Comet, but that alone didn't make it a "Regional Jet" as they were more of a First Class only concept.
Avro Canada C102 if you prefer. . .
It was a 36-seater, like its contemporary the de Havilland Comet, but that alone didn't make it a "Regional Jet" as they were more of a First Class only concept.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lanzarote/Butuan/Southern Yorkshire
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Haraka,
No, I've flown on the Mercure.
It was the Corvette, a 12 seater feeder liner, trust me. Some had tip tanks too.
Use search engines I'm sure I'll be proven correct. Limited service , but scheduled service no less.
No, I've flown on the Mercure.
It was the Corvette, a 12 seater feeder liner, trust me. Some had tip tanks too.
Use search engines I'm sure I'll be proven correct. Limited service , but scheduled service no less.
Last edited by Cymmon; 18th Aug 2015 at 12:39. Reason: Inserted more text
Canadian version of the Ashton?
the c102 was actually ready before the comet, however malton field refinished the runway and only the short one was available ok for taxi tests but not the first flight. then the korean war heated up and CD Howe had Avro concentrate on the cf 100. things that could have been......