Belvedere
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Belvedere
Apologisticas if this is parked in the wrong place but I've often wondered.........in my child like memories of a few years ago I can recall Bristol's Belvedere as a sort of forerunner to the Chinook. I've heard sort of dispariging things about it but the Chinook is usually spoken of in better terms. Was the Belvedere not a good bit of kit?
When I was a student at ULAS, one of the QFIs had flown the wretched thing. It was known in the Far East as 'Mixmaster bilong suicide' amongst other, rather less polite descriptions.
Gentleman Aviator
An early procurement "pigs" as I recall - or recall being told - even I'm not that old a rotary person.
The aircraft was originally designed for the RN, hence the spindly u/c, so that a torpedo could be carried beneath the fuselage. But - lo and behold - it had no folding blades so could not go down a carrier lift - not a lot of use to the FAA then. Good procurement staff answer, give it to the RAF!
But it retained said high u/c, guaranteeing that, even when on the ground it was a high enough jump to crack the odd pongoes' ankles - and even more likely when deplaning from the hover.
And the RAF only had a single hook for USLs (underslung loads), which put an enormous bending load on the aircraft's spine. Good engineering staff answer - life the airframe (yes really) at 1500 hours, so perfectly serviceable entire aircraft were binned when they ran out of hours....
And then there was the AVPIN engine start, with the AVPIN tank thoughtfully placed just behind the pilots' heads.....
Some of this may be Urban Myth, but it sounds so awfully believable......!
The aircraft was originally designed for the RN, hence the spindly u/c, so that a torpedo could be carried beneath the fuselage. But - lo and behold - it had no folding blades so could not go down a carrier lift - not a lot of use to the FAA then. Good procurement staff answer, give it to the RAF!
But it retained said high u/c, guaranteeing that, even when on the ground it was a high enough jump to crack the odd pongoes' ankles - and even more likely when deplaning from the hover.
And the RAF only had a single hook for USLs (underslung loads), which put an enormous bending load on the aircraft's spine. Good engineering staff answer - life the airframe (yes really) at 1500 hours, so perfectly serviceable entire aircraft were binned when they ran out of hours....
And then there was the AVPIN engine start, with the AVPIN tank thoughtfully placed just behind the pilots' heads.....
Some of this may be Urban Myth, but it sounds so awfully believable......!
If I remember rightly, it had an engine at each end and a combining shaft joining the two gearboxes. Fine until the shaft broke, then stopping the front blades from colliding with the rear was a bit of a problem (OK in fwd flight where the discs were separated, but to flare.....?).
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Interesting info plus some comments by people involved with them here: Bristol Type 191/192 "Belvedere" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data
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A good link above I think.
If nothing else, whatever its difficulties, the Belvedere paved the way for the UK to understand it needed MSH from operations in the Middle (26 sqn) and Far East (66 sqn) - it lead to the first UK CH47 order (15) which was then cancelled when we withdrew from the Far East in 1971. Unfortunately at the time, there was no endorsed requirement for any MSH in Germany so it took another 10 years before we saw Chinooks at all in UK service - and then only because there was a budget surplus allowing a quick buy in 1978.
It was also testament, IMO, on how not to try and use a design for 2 very different roles..after all the Belvedere had its genesis in the RN ASW/torpedo bomber role, and much of its design reflected that. So despite efforts to upgrade it for the SH task it never quite made the grade, never mind some of its inherent basic design/reliability flaws. Now where have we seen similar.....mmmmmmm EH101???...surely not.....
If nothing else, whatever its difficulties, the Belvedere paved the way for the UK to understand it needed MSH from operations in the Middle (26 sqn) and Far East (66 sqn) - it lead to the first UK CH47 order (15) which was then cancelled when we withdrew from the Far East in 1971. Unfortunately at the time, there was no endorsed requirement for any MSH in Germany so it took another 10 years before we saw Chinooks at all in UK service - and then only because there was a budget surplus allowing a quick buy in 1978.
It was also testament, IMO, on how not to try and use a design for 2 very different roles..after all the Belvedere had its genesis in the RN ASW/torpedo bomber role, and much of its design reflected that. So despite efforts to upgrade it for the SH task it never quite made the grade, never mind some of its inherent basic design/reliability flaws. Now where have we seen similar.....mmmmmmm EH101???...surely not.....
Last edited by Tallsar; 13th Jul 2010 at 18:40.
Avpin Starts
There was a Sqn Ldr Spec Aircrew on 33 (early 80s) who had flown Belvederes. He reckoned the start sequence was run with the pilot's legs out the side door- just in case! So no myth on that score. P'raps!
CG
PS I think there's a YouTube vid out there worth a look, but I'm no good at the linky thing.
There was a Sqn Ldr Spec Aircrew on 33 (early 80s) who had flown Belvederes. He reckoned the start sequence was run with the pilot's legs out the side door- just in case! So no myth on that score. P'raps!
CG
PS I think there's a YouTube vid out there worth a look, but I'm no good at the linky thing.
Yes it was, but I'm so old and removed now, I can't remember his surname. I went to 230 in mid 83, so hardly knew him save for a Belize do.
CG
CG
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Yup, they also did a display with a bunch of unstrapped in Gurkhas?? and when he flared, they all went sliding back down the arse end and his flare erm sort of developed a lot.....
The late old 230 Sqn F/Sgt A****r M******* used to be on them and said they were a fire trap...
The late old 230 Sqn F/Sgt A****r M******* used to be on them and said they were a fire trap...
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Nutloose
The late old 230 Sqn F/Sgt A****r M******* ...
Sorry for the threadcreep.
Phil
He reckoned the start sequence was run with the pilot's legs out the side door- just in case! So no myth on that score. P'raps!
So I don't think the above was a myth!
Somewhere I've got a grainy black and white snapshot of the final squadron flypast, when if memory serves they managed to get 11 aircraft flying!
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"][/URL]This is a nice cine film showing belvederes....Ten at once in one portion.
YouTube - Belvedere Flypast
YouTube - Belvedere Flypast
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old beefer & charliegolf.....
I know that Stan Smith was on Belvederes but I don't think he made Sqn Ldr. Stan had many apochryphal stories about the starts. Apparently he used to stand outside and use a stick to prod the start button (?) Was that poss? He was that short in stature that he probably had to stand on a ladder!
"][/url]This is a nice cine film showing belvederes....Ten at once in one portion.
He was that short in stature that he probably had to stand on a ladder!
The bloke also flew an exchange tour on B29s! Great storyteller.
CG
I've remembered who Pete C is: dredged his name up after Oldbeefer mentioned him.
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I am confident that Ray Lawrence, who was an excellent ground instructor in my younger days at Shawbury, was not only an ex Belvedere pilot, but also one of those with a limp following foot injury during one of those iffy Avpin starts that lead to perilous jumps from by the then ladderless cockpit - it was bad enough for me on Hunter start ups (and those from Canberras and Wessex 1s will have similar recalls). Lets face it, it would never get an RTS these days with such a start up risk.
Wonderful 66 sqn disbandment formation film though.....something the CH47 force has yet to equal I think.....but then they are so often needed elsewhere I don't suppose there are ever enough at Odiham for such an event....maybe one day - perhaps if the fundetectors will allow, a mass flypast of all those in the 'Stan when the great day for withdrawal happens, and as a celebration of all their efforts and bravery??? We can but hope
Wonderful 66 sqn disbandment formation film though.....something the CH47 force has yet to equal I think.....but then they are so often needed elsewhere I don't suppose there are ever enough at Odiham for such an event....maybe one day - perhaps if the fundetectors will allow, a mass flypast of all those in the 'Stan when the great day for withdrawal happens, and as a celebration of all their efforts and bravery??? We can but hope