Bristol Britannia details
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Bristol Britannia details
I was wondering if anyone could shed light on the Bristol Britannia.
Apart from the usual details on wikipedia, there is not really many other sites with details on the aircraft.
Considering that 88 were made (and a few were converted to cargo duties) , I am surprised that there is not more details floating around the internet on this aircraft. was it that unimpressive (boring) and aircraft ?
Is it a true fact that due to the free running of the turbo-prop blades, some ground crew's used to hold the prop blades while the turbines were spooling up and then let go and run away resulting in the props suddenly spinning up ?
That must have been quite funny to see (the technical minded side of me says could it actually happen ) ?
RD
Apart from the usual details on wikipedia, there is not really many other sites with details on the aircraft.
Considering that 88 were made (and a few were converted to cargo duties) , I am surprised that there is not more details floating around the internet on this aircraft. was it that unimpressive (boring) and aircraft ?
Is it a true fact that due to the free running of the turbo-prop blades, some ground crew's used to hold the prop blades while the turbines were spooling up and then let go and run away resulting in the props suddenly spinning up ?
That must have been quite funny to see (the technical minded side of me says could it actually happen ) ?
RD
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The Proteus has a free turbine and as such the prop has a parking brake. The brake was released prior to starting the engine. In order to stop the prop spinning the wrong way during engine start, the ground crew could hold it. You knew when to let go when you felt the prop moving with the engine when it started.
Temps.
Temps.
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Bristol Britannia
An interesting fact about the Britannia.
El Al were about to introduce an Israel - New York service which was to route Tel Aviv - London - New York and vv. On the last proving flight they had on board an ex RAF navigator who was Technical Adviser to the El Al Chairman.
After take off to return to London from New York he managed to get them into the core of the jetstream and stay there right the way across the Atlantic & Europe before landing at Tel Aviv non stop from New York, at all times all fuel requirements for diversions etc were maintained.
This flight was just before Christmas 1956, the navigator John ED Williams later went on to found Euravia which later became Britannia Airways.
El Al were about to introduce an Israel - New York service which was to route Tel Aviv - London - New York and vv. On the last proving flight they had on board an ex RAF navigator who was Technical Adviser to the El Al Chairman.
After take off to return to London from New York he managed to get them into the core of the jetstream and stay there right the way across the Atlantic & Europe before landing at Tel Aviv non stop from New York, at all times all fuel requirements for diversions etc were maintained.
This flight was just before Christmas 1956, the navigator John ED Williams later went on to found Euravia which later became Britannia Airways.
An interesting fact about the flight controls is that it used servo tabs on all surfaces. The yoke mechanically controlled the servo tab (no boost) and aerodynamics did the rest. I've read that at slow speed it did sometimes seem to slow down the aircraft's response.
The Britannia was a good aircraft, unfortunately it was dogged by engine icing problems which delayed entry into service. I flew the Britannia for ten years and never found it boring, tricky at times maybe, but very satisfying. Ground crews sometimes held on to a prop blade after the prop parking brake was released prior to starting to stop it windmilling in the wrong direction if there was a tailwind.
Regarding the servo tabbed controls, both ailerons and the elevators were drooped down until about 80 knots. This system had limitations when rounding out after a steepish approach!
If you are interested in learning more Charles Woodley has written an excellent book titled: Bristol Britannia ISBN 1 86126 515 8
Regarding the servo tabbed controls, both ailerons and the elevators were drooped down until about 80 knots. This system had limitations when rounding out after a steepish approach!
If you are interested in learning more Charles Woodley has written an excellent book titled: Bristol Britannia ISBN 1 86126 515 8
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Can't praise highly enough Frank McKim's The Whispering Giant, The Story of the Bristol Britannia by Scoval Publishing.
The colour photos are the best.
Great offer on Am*z*n at the moment, by the way.
The colour photos are the best.
Great offer on Am*z*n at the moment, by the way.
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Bristol Britannia
I worked on the Brit 102's with Britannia Airways in the 60's and I can confirm that I was one of those people who had to hold those props on starting .
It was quite hairy when starting up in the dark .
Engine changes in those days were frequent but to make the job worse , corrosion was found in the hollow bladed paddle props and we had to undergo the conversion to steel ones . These were at first in short supply, so you had to change them frequently to ensure that no two of the old ones were on the one side and new ones on the other but had to be balanced out .
Work on the Brits was very heavy( even the engine cowls weighed a bomb ). Also, drive shafts to the gear box was very time consuming with fitting of shims. Because everything was high of the ground , you had to have legs of a mountain goat .
An engine feathered for various reasons, was a frequent sight on return from abroad ,more work for us,
Fuel bag tank changes were horrible ,the center one , the worst, with all the buttons to fit in such a confined space.
I did however , get to fly a few times, and to sit in the ex navigator's position was great,and providing that the prop syncronisation was done , very quiet.
On a sad note, I flew out with the late Geoff Parkins to attend to the Britannia crash in Llubjana (Sept 1st 1966 with heavy loss of life ) and returned back to Luton with the survivors.
Merv Tew
It was quite hairy when starting up in the dark .
Engine changes in those days were frequent but to make the job worse , corrosion was found in the hollow bladed paddle props and we had to undergo the conversion to steel ones . These were at first in short supply, so you had to change them frequently to ensure that no two of the old ones were on the one side and new ones on the other but had to be balanced out .
Work on the Brits was very heavy( even the engine cowls weighed a bomb ). Also, drive shafts to the gear box was very time consuming with fitting of shims. Because everything was high of the ground , you had to have legs of a mountain goat .
An engine feathered for various reasons, was a frequent sight on return from abroad ,more work for us,
Fuel bag tank changes were horrible ,the center one , the worst, with all the buttons to fit in such a confined space.
I did however , get to fly a few times, and to sit in the ex navigator's position was great,and providing that the prop syncronisation was done , very quiet.
On a sad note, I flew out with the late Geoff Parkins to attend to the Britannia crash in Llubjana (Sept 1st 1966 with heavy loss of life ) and returned back to Luton with the survivors.
Merv Tew
The day I emigrated to the US my first flight ever was in a Britannia from Newcastle down to Heathrow, I can't for the life of me think who the operator was.
Help please!
The next leg to Toronto was via Air Canada DC-8, then onward to Cleveland in a Viscount.
I returned many times, usually for Xmas, AC then had Vanguards which were horrible compared to the Viscounts, the vibration would start at one side come through the middle and go back again, a good job the flights were short !!
The later legs up to/down from NCL were in Tridents and BAC 11's, fun !!
Cheers,
f
Help please!
The next leg to Toronto was via Air Canada DC-8, then onward to Cleveland in a Viscount.
I returned many times, usually for Xmas, AC then had Vanguards which were horrible compared to the Viscounts, the vibration would start at one side come through the middle and go back again, a good job the flights were short !!
The later legs up to/down from NCL were in Tridents and BAC 11's, fun !!
Cheers,
f
my first flight ever was in a Britannia from Newcastle down to Heathrow, I can't for the life of me think who the operator was.
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I too was a prop holder for the "Protesting" engines. With a wind up the kilt you would hold it during startup until the engine pulled it out of your hands. We used to horrify the SLF by giving the prop a mighty push as the engine started. Made it look like we were "hand propping" it to start.
The engine icing problems caused "bump stalls" where the ice buildup in the duct came loose and slid forward into the compressor, got ground finely, turned to steam and put out the fires. The glow plugs that were fitted re-ignited the engine giving a characteristic "bump".
Reports of "bump stalls" meant opening the massive cowling and inspecting the compressor face. It meant looking around a curve in the inlet as the Proteus had a reverse flow configuration so we used an intrascope. Sometimes the ice was too much for the very robust compressor and I have looked in and seen several rows of compressor blades cleaned right off. We called it "corncobbing". Bent blades were acceptable provided there were no rips or tears or missing parts and the blade was not bent into a reverse pitch. Not at all unusual to see bent blades.
Aeronaves de Mexico operated two model 302 Brits that I worked and saw a lot of "bump stall" activity over the Gulf of Mexico. Aircraft had only four tanks and for Mexico City - New York had to fly high and pretty straight-line to get the needed non-stop performance. This made it difficult to avoid the wrong kind of clouds that caused the icing. I seem to remember those were alto-cirrus and were composed of ice crystals.
Proteus could be hard starting too and after two start tries required draining the fuel can before attemping another go.
The engine icing problems caused "bump stalls" where the ice buildup in the duct came loose and slid forward into the compressor, got ground finely, turned to steam and put out the fires. The glow plugs that were fitted re-ignited the engine giving a characteristic "bump".
Reports of "bump stalls" meant opening the massive cowling and inspecting the compressor face. It meant looking around a curve in the inlet as the Proteus had a reverse flow configuration so we used an intrascope. Sometimes the ice was too much for the very robust compressor and I have looked in and seen several rows of compressor blades cleaned right off. We called it "corncobbing". Bent blades were acceptable provided there were no rips or tears or missing parts and the blade was not bent into a reverse pitch. Not at all unusual to see bent blades.
Aeronaves de Mexico operated two model 302 Brits that I worked and saw a lot of "bump stall" activity over the Gulf of Mexico. Aircraft had only four tanks and for Mexico City - New York had to fly high and pretty straight-line to get the needed non-stop performance. This made it difficult to avoid the wrong kind of clouds that caused the icing. I seem to remember those were alto-cirrus and were composed of ice crystals.
Proteus could be hard starting too and after two start tries required draining the fuel can before attemping another go.
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Almost certainly would be Northeast Airways, one of the short lived amalgamations in the late 60's/early 70's and Newcastle based, if memory serves. I remember returning from Bilbao to Gatwick on a Northeast Brit in 1971, I think.
BKS Air Transport, formed in October 1951, initiated Britannia services from Newcastle to Heathrow and vv in April 1964. The Britannias were progressively withdrawn from the route from December 1968 and from April 1969 Tridents took over.
At the end of January 1970, BKS had just one Britannia left, G-ANBK, which was in store as a standby aircraft.
BKS had become part of the British Air Services Group with Cambrian in March 1967. This was not an amalgamation, it was a legal entity formed by BEA to look after its stakes in BKS (50%) and Cambrian (33%) and to investigate the operation of short sector services within the UK using Short Skyliners. Saunders ST-27s and DHC Twin Otters were also demonstrated to the management, and the Skyliner was used to conduct a tour of airfields selected for the proposed routes.
This was the only flying activity undertaken by BAS as an entity - the idea was not proceeded with for a variety of financial, operational and regulatory reasons.
Cambrian and BKS continued as independent trading and operating companies both carrying British Air Services titles as "sub titles" - the BKS Tridents carrying the titles on the cabin roof with BKS tail logos, as did some Britannias and Viscounts. The rest of the fleet carried BKS on the cabin roof and small British Air Services titles near the passenger doors.
On November 1 1970 BKS changed its name to Northeast Airlines, to emphasise its links to North East England. It adopted the same yellow colours as Northeast Airlines in the USA but in a different layout. The renaming was simply that, no merger or amalgamation was involved and the opportunity was taken to relegate the British Air Services titles to the nose. Cambrian adopted a similar colour scheme layout (their BAS titles had always been much smaller) using a poppy red colour.
In December 1970, G-ANBK was overhauled, painted in Northeast colours and operated a number of fill in services, including Newcastle - to London, for a variety of reasons during 1971.
On December 31 1971 it flew NS442 from Newcastle to London and was then withdrawn and scrapped. NS442 was the last Britannia 102 flight ever.
In July 1973 British Air Services, as part of the former BEA, but itself until then not absorbed by British Airways, became part of British Airways and financial and legal arrangements were made so that Northeast as a whole came under the control of the British Airways board. The aircraft started to appear in BA colours but carried Northeast titles and used the Northeast callsign until March 32 1976 when the airline became part of British Airways Regional Division - following Cambrian which had been taken out of BAS and absorbed by the Regional Division in September 1972, immediately losing its titles on the aircraft and, by 1974 having no separate identity.
Last edited by philbky; 6th Dec 2008 at 10:52. Reason: clarification
Thanks for the info, as you might expect I was a little excited about my move and that flight is a bit of a "fog", memory-wise.
I thought that it might have been BKS, and it was early 1968 so that ties in.
Any thoughts on Reg No. ????, pictures???
Thanks again.
f
I thought that it might have been BKS, and it was early 1968 so that ties in.
Any thoughts on Reg No. ????, pictures???
Thanks again.
f
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Get some of the old BOAC, BUA, RAF, African Safari, IAS , Redcoat & ohers in the UK to dive in. Also the Canuks & CUBANA folks. Then also the CL44 folks, hey I forget about Jack Mallocks beef haulers out of Rhod via Gabon!
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For pics go to the Air Britain Photographic Images Collectionon line and type the following registrations into their search engine:
G-ANBD, G-ANBH, G-ANBK, G-APLL.
All four were in service when you took your flight.
The main undercarriage assembly from, if i remember the starboard side of PLL stood at one side of Newcastle Airport for many years.
G-ANBD, G-ANBH, G-ANBK, G-APLL.
All four were in service when you took your flight.
The main undercarriage assembly from, if i remember the starboard side of PLL stood at one side of Newcastle Airport for many years.
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Ref the crash in Lubliana in 1966.
I remember one of the shots of what was left of the
aircraft showed the tail section with the registration
G-ANBB.
It was a bit of a shock! I'd painted that registration on
that aircraft! Must have been early in '66, I left Brits to
go to ACE Freighters after arguing with Jeff Parkins and
Ron Smith over paid/unpaid overtime.
Still got a MM Vol 1 and Proteus O'haul Manual, but for
the -300 series. Courtesy of IAS who chucked them out
when they got the DC 8, and my services because I'd
worked the DC 8 at KLM.
A long time ago!
I remember one of the shots of what was left of the
aircraft showed the tail section with the registration
G-ANBB.
It was a bit of a shock! I'd painted that registration on
that aircraft! Must have been early in '66, I left Brits to
go to ACE Freighters after arguing with Jeff Parkins and
Ron Smith over paid/unpaid overtime.
Still got a MM Vol 1 and Proteus O'haul Manual, but for
the -300 series. Courtesy of IAS who chucked them out
when they got the DC 8, and my services because I'd
worked the DC 8 at KLM.
A long time ago!
Still got a MM Vol 1 and Proteus O'haul Manual, but for
the -300 series. Courtesy of IAS who chucked them out
when they got the DC 8, and my services because I'd
worked the DC 8 at KLM.
A long time ago!
the -300 series. Courtesy of IAS who chucked them out
when they got the DC 8, and my services because I'd
worked the DC 8 at KLM.
A long time ago!
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Stormin & Brakedwell
That was not a happy time, but I seem to think you went elsewhere? Joe Phillips, well he and the chap from Tradewinds were well suited me thinks?
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Stormin
Was not Ron Smith Jnr's Dad the skipper on that. Last time I heard
of Ron Smith Jnr., he was in OAK trying to get a DC8 op
off he ground, after being with GF on 1-11s. Long time ago.
of Ron Smith Jnr., he was in OAK trying to get a DC8 op
off he ground, after being with GF on 1-11s. Long time ago.