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Old 10th Jan 2017, 07:18   #21 (permalink)
 
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I agree it would be nice to be under surveillance all the time
Why ---- would you want to be "under surveillance all the time" ???

Tootle pip!!
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 11:23   #22 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
Why ---- would you want to be "under surveillance all the time" ???

Tootle pip!!
Unlike many people, I don't have paranoia about 'people' watching. If I don't break the rules, I'm happy that there is no conspiracy to charge me than I should be paying, or that my security is at risk, etc etc. I'm more than happy to have atc have the ability to assist, whether it be for traffic, weather or emergency. And before it's said that atc don't watch vfr's in G, they will assist when they can.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 12:42   #23 (permalink)
 
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They only assist because if it's observed on radar, nothing was said and something happened they'd (ASA) be liable. It's not about providing a service, its about arse covering.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 16:11   #24 (permalink)
 
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And probably because controllers, like most decent human beings, would try to help if they can.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 21:04   #25 (permalink)
 
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In the US, any aircraft (IFR or VFR) operating within 30NM of an aerodrome with Class B airspace requires ADS-B, regardless of altitude. There are about 36 of these airports with Class B airspace - of course these are the busiest airports in the US.
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
Class A, B, and C airspace.
Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.

UAT 980 below 10,000 feet as well.

It is not part of the story, but some of the reasoning why it is not mandated below 3000 feet. For relevance, in AUS, I dont note any altitude or other caveats to the ADSB rule, is there?
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 21:28   #26 (permalink)
 
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Of course Australia doesn't make use of Class B airspace - yet, although it is promulgated in AIP in the event it's needed.

Our Class C is more similar to the US class B than the US Class C anyway.


In the US, clearance is not required to enter the Class C airspace (only establishment of 2 way radio communication, like Class D here).


Here you need an actual clearance to enter any Class C.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 22:02   #27 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
They only assist because if it's observed on radar, nothing was said and something happened they'd (ASA) be liable. It's not about providing a service, its about arse covering.
Its really a quite cynical view of the world you have 'The name is Porter'. I'm not sure if you know any ATC's, or whether you have been one before or what, but having worked closely with ATC for many years I'm yet to meet one that would simply ignore a person in distress. Sure, I might not always get the clearance I'm after, or they might 'sound grumpy' but this isn't because they're sitting at the console sipping coffee and eating donuts, its because of operational reasons in 99% of the cases.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 22:07   #28 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by underfire View Post
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
Class A, B, and C airspace.
Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.

UAT 980 below 10,000 feet as well.

It is not part of the story, but some of the reasoning why it is not mandated below 3000 feet. For relevance, in AUS, I dont note any altitude or other caveats to the ADSB rule, is there?
I take your point that there is airspace <3000' where no ADS-B is required however all I'm pointing out is that it IS mandated below 3000' if you're operating WI 30NM of Class B airspace for VFR and IFR. The below info was taken from the FAA website this morning:

"Airspace within 30 nautical miles (nm) at certain busy airports from the surface up to 10,000 feet MSL; airports listed in appendix D to part 91." (https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipads.../requirements/)

And mikewil, I'm talking about equipage rather than clearances.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 22:53   #29 (permalink)
 
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They only assist because if it's observed on radar, nothing was said and something happened they'd (ASA) be liable. It's not about providing a service, its about arse covering.
Usual crap from Porter. I have usually found AWOL57's statement to be pretty accurate:
Quote:
And probably because controllers, like most decent human beings, would try to help if they can
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 02:25   #30 (permalink)
 
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as noted
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at certain busy airports from the surface up to 10,000 feet MSL
again, where does AUS differentiate? If not, why?
Mandating an antiquated protocol that the rest of the World has passed by?

time to evolve:
echo ATT-20B ? uAvionix

The SkyEcho ATT-20B has been approved for use in the United Kingdom under the Civil Aviation Publication (CAP) 1391 Electronic Conspicuity program. What does this mean? You can increase your safety in the air and enjoy the benefits of ADS-B for a fraction of the cost of installing it in your aircraft.
Weighing just 50 grams SkyEcho broadcasts your aircraft type, position, altitude, course and speed to surrounding aircraft in real-time, while the integrated ADS-B receiver allows you receive and display traffic information from surrounding aircraft using an EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) such as Skydemon or a GDL90 compatible EFIS display via Wi-Fi.
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 03:40   #31 (permalink)
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Some thread drift here....

Do you really believe that any proposal for a 30 mn rule would get legs in this country??

In effect that would screw low level VFR ops at those coastal locations such as BNE, SYD, MEL, ADL and PER. I would like to hear what AOPA and the other representative organisations might have to say to such a proposal... remember what happened to the radar veil proposal?

Now, what about that list of locations....
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 03:54   #32 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underfire View Post
as noted

again, where does AUS differentiate? If not, why?
Mandating an antiquated protocol that the rest of the World has passed by?

time to evolve:
echo ATT-20B ? uAvionix

The SkyEcho ATT-20B has been approved for use in the United Kingdom under the Civil Aviation Publication (CAP) 1391 Electronic Conspicuity program. What does this mean? You can increase your safety in the air and enjoy the benefits of ADS-B for a fraction of the cost of installing it in your aircraft.
Weighing just 50 grams SkyEcho broadcasts your aircraft type, position, altitude, course and speed to surrounding aircraft in real-time, while the integrated ADS-B receiver allows you receive and display traffic information from surrounding aircraft using an EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) such as Skydemon or a GDL90 compatible EFIS display via Wi-Fi.
Australia differentiates by not mandating it for VFR aircraft rather than by airspace.

I'm not sure why you say "ADS-B is an antiquated protocol that the rest of the world has passed by" either. Most states are going towards this technology instead of replacing expensive radars. In fact ICAO has even recommended this in many cases! And given that most mandates around the world haven't come into effect yet, and NavCanada is pouring millions into Space based ADS-B, I would suggest this is the way forward for ATC surveillance for a long time to come yet.

I support your notion about being time to evolve with regards to the acceptable types of equipment though. And hopefully CASA is looking at it this very minute to allow non-TSO'd equipment for a number of circumstances so these cheaper options can be used in anger here in Oz - at least for VFR situational awareness and for ATC to provide unverified traffic to IFR flights.

BREAK

And apologies for drifting away from the original intent of the thread!!

Last edited by Flying_higher; 11th Jan 2017 at 03:56. Reason: To bring the discussion back to the intent of the original thread.
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 12:40   #33 (permalink)
 
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Flying Higher, 25 years as an ATC. My post is not criticising ATC's it's criticising ASA. This absolute tripe of providing continual traffic alerts to aircraft 3nm apart (5km) when there's not a hope in hell of them hitting is ridiculous. How is an aircraft in distress in this situation? The 'service' that is being provided here is arse covering. It is not required. Listen to the garbage that goes on on 135.7 on a gin clear day in Melbourne. It is the pilots responsibility to see and avoid at all times. How about liberating ATC's from the disgraceful liabilities they are acting under for something they haven't got a hope of preventing.

How about freeing up ATC's to do the job they're paid to do, separating traffic. How about running a Class D tower under Class D procedures instead of bullshitting the punters and running it as Class C tower. How about sending a few controllers on an exchange program to the US to see a different perspective (for the more dense of you that want to read more into the previous sentence than is there, go ahead).
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 19:37   #34 (permalink)
 
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This absolute tripe of providing continual traffic alerts to aircraft 3nm apart (5km) when there's not a hope in hell of them hitting is ridiculous.
It is a joke. (And, like you, I'm not criticising individual controllers for providing this 'service'.)

The blips on the radar screen might look close, but out there in the real world ...

I have related, before, a story about a helpful controller who alerted me and another aircraft as to each of our relative positions on approximately the same track, with me slowly catching up on the other. Severe CAVOK. About 5 minutes later I spot a tiny speck in the distance, to whom I eventually caught up and waved as I passed about half a nautical mile abeam and 500' above. (The other aircraft was IFR.)

The joke? The gliders we whizzed past in closer proximity were, of course, not on the controller's radar screen and therefore not notified as traffic, yet we managed not to collide.

Last edited by Creampuff; 11th Jan 2017 at 19:48.
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 21:59   #35 (permalink)
 
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Australia's ADSB requirements, the DMEA of the 21st century
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 23:24   #36 (permalink)
 
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Operations in the Cape York area including regional airlines have no ABS-B cover at all, yet the aircraft will be grounded soon without ADSB. You've got to have it but it doesn't do anything. Real logic there!
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Old 12th Jan 2017, 03:07   #37 (permalink)
 
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Creampuff, I have a radar screen which doesn't happen to include indications of cloud so I can't tell from looking at the picture if you're in severe CAVOK or about to pop out of a white fluffy thing and get a windscreen full of the VFR I'm giving you traffic on after he suddenly turns towards you unannounced. I've given traffic plenty of times on VFRs who are only a few hundred feet below a descending IFR and the response is "we're in cloud". When they pop out they'd likely be bloody close - sure they'd probably miss by random scatter but that's the only reason. Chieftain popping out on top of a 172? Great for unalerted see and avoid.

What's half a mile? Might look a long way but takes very little time to travel that distance at even 120kts. Look down, fiddle with the radio, look up and your half mile is gone.
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Old 12th Jan 2017, 06:56   #38 (permalink)
 
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You miss my point.

You naturally and necessarily focus on the risks of which you are aware. (And, as usual, you implicitly exaggerate the probabilities of a collision.)

We all get it that controllers have a bit of a fixation on preventing collisions, and we are very glad and thankful to controllers for that.

My point is there are often greater collision risks - what would in objective terms be more accurately described as less remote collision risks - of which you are blissfully unaware that don't result in collisions despite you not being able to notify it as traffic.

Are you aware, for example, of how many hang gliders have been operating out of places like YFBS in the last couple of weeks, and the altitudes to which they climb and the distances to which they range? Are you aware, for example, of how many gliders are operating out of places like YTEM, YCTM and YBLA at the moment, and the altitudes to which they climb and the distances to which they range? I'll bet folding money that RPT traffic into out of places like YGTH and YSWG have been close enough to a hang glider or glider as to give you palpitations, had they been blips on your radar screen. Yet no collisions.

Last edited by Creampuff; 12th Jan 2017 at 07:07.
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Old 13th Jan 2017, 03:42   #39 (permalink)
 
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As you say, I can do nothing about what I can't see - that's your job. Just because there are greater collision risks doesn't mean you ignore the smaller risks as well.
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Old 13th Jan 2017, 09:21   #40 (permalink)
 
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What you're getting creampuff is an ASA motherhood, nanny state explanation for the useless, pointless garbage transmitted on control frequencies. Hell, I used to do it, granted, I would give traffic if it was under 3 miles, watch the paints merge, come out the other side, shit that was close! Nah, they probably saw each other nodded g'day and went about their business.

Meanwhile, ASA tells the world they're saving pilots lives daily (by broadcasting traffic alerts). The horseshit justifying this colossal waste of resources is embarrassing. Any other ANSP that saw this would piss their selves laughing. Way to go ASA, trailblazing, showing the world how it's done. I can see the lineup stretching into the distance, show us how you do it they say, saving lives daily with awesome traffic alerts
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