Melbourne Air Traffic Control
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What happened in Melbourne last night? Up to fifteen minute delays, two runways in use, a light northerly and VMC and this was at 2200. One area controller thought that there were staff shortages in the tower but there didn't seem to be excessive traffic.
If this is the case, are Airservices management aware of the cost impact on these delays?
If this is the case, are Airservices management aware of the cost impact on these delays?
What does ERSA say?
ANTICIPATED AIRBORNE TRAFFIC DELAYS FOR ARR ACFT due to terminal area traffic
density and/or expected single RWY operations:
DAILY 2100-2300 (1 HR Earlier HDS): All Traffic 15MIN.
DAILY 2300-0700 (1 HR Earlier HDS): All Traffic 10MIN.
DAILY 0700-1200 (1 HR Earlier HDS): All Traffic 15MIN.
ANTICIPATED AIRBORNE TRAFFIC DELAYS FOR ARR ACFT due to terminal area traffic
density and/or expected single RWY operations:
DAILY 2100-2300 (1 HR Earlier HDS): All Traffic 15MIN.
DAILY 2300-0700 (1 HR Earlier HDS): All Traffic 10MIN.
DAILY 0700-1200 (1 HR Earlier HDS): All Traffic 15MIN.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, that is exactly what ERSA says but isn't the COBT program designed to reduce en-route delays? COBT was on time. I just found it a bit odd that at 10.00 PM at night, mid week holding and delays were required (which doesn't usually happen). Given the fact that the weather conditions were benign, two runways were in use but only RW27 was taking landings, according to the ATIS, I was just wondering as to why the unusual delay.
I believe the holding is designed for traffic sequencing and not to cover alleged staff shortages which was the reason alluded to by one of the en-route controllers.
This also makes me curious as to ask a few questions.
- Is there a shortage of controllers at the moment?
- Are Airservices recruiting?
- How long does it take to train a controller?
- How many controllers are required to run the tower?
Thanks.
I believe the holding is designed for traffic sequencing and not to cover alleged staff shortages which was the reason alluded to by one of the en-route controllers.
This also makes me curious as to ask a few questions.
- Is there a shortage of controllers at the moment?
- Are Airservices recruiting?
- How long does it take to train a controller?
- How many controllers are required to run the tower?
Thanks.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can only speak for the tower.
Rostered Staffing for consoles at various times:
0600-0615 - 3 controllers.
0615-2100 - 4 controllers (plus 1 on a break)
2100-2130 - 3 controllers
2130-0600 - 2 controllers
Shift manager rostered from 0630 to 2200 each day.
There is currently no shortage in the tower and there were 2 controllers on (as rostered) at 2200 on the night you mention. No idea why there may have been unusual delays that night.
Not sure if Airservices are recruiting at present.
It takes approximately one year in the learning academy (training college) and then about another three months in the tower to gain the first two endorsements (Ground and Clearance Delivery). Then there'd usually be a consolidation period on those positions of anywhere between three and twelve months before training for another 3 months on the next two endorsements (Tower and Coordinator).
The training and consolidation periods can be reduced if training a controller with previous experience as opposed to an ab initio.
Rostered Staffing for consoles at various times:
0600-0615 - 3 controllers.
0615-2100 - 4 controllers (plus 1 on a break)
2100-2130 - 3 controllers
2130-0600 - 2 controllers
Shift manager rostered from 0630 to 2200 each day.
There is currently no shortage in the tower and there were 2 controllers on (as rostered) at 2200 on the night you mention. No idea why there may have been unusual delays that night.
Not sure if Airservices are recruiting at present.
It takes approximately one year in the learning academy (training college) and then about another three months in the tower to gain the first two endorsements (Ground and Clearance Delivery). Then there'd usually be a consolidation period on those positions of anywhere between three and twelve months before training for another 3 months on the next two endorsements (Tower and Coordinator).
The training and consolidation periods can be reduced if training a controller with previous experience as opposed to an ab initio.
COBTs won't stop a dozen aircraft all trying to arrive at the same time - depends on exactly when they depart, how much they're vectored on departure, how long they actually take to fly the leg, how many internationals are in the mix (they could easily be 30 minutes late or early).
The aim of COBT is to keep the average rate of arrivals within the set acceptance rate.
The aim of COBT is to keep the average rate of arrivals within the set acceptance rate.
Airservices is currently not recruiting but the training continues at a reduced rate - as far as I'm aware there will still be some ab initio courses run. FWIW the group I'm with has rated several ab initos over the last six months.
As to shortages, I don't think we're particularly short in general at present, but that doesn't mean certain units aren't short.
As to shortages, I don't think we're particularly short in general at present, but that doesn't mean certain units aren't short.
Airservices is currently not recruiting but the training continues at a reduced rate - as far as I'm aware there will still be some ab initio courses run. FWIW the group I'm with has rated several ab initos over the last six months.
As to shortages, I don't think we're particularly short in general at present, but that doesn't mean certain units aren't short.
As to shortages, I don't think we're particularly short in general at present, but that doesn't mean certain units aren't short.
Minimal cost to Airlines, as modern airliners are delivered 'out of the box' CAT III. The pilots are CAT III qualified during the Conversion Course.
Originally Posted by Cessnapete
arriving for instance at Perth in my new QF 787 non stop from Lhr, not a lot of excess fuel, poor alternates, and only a CAT I runway.
Minimal cost to Airlines, as modern airliners are delivered 'out of the box' CAT III.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info fellas.
I believe that SYD does not meet the requirements for CAT III due to the proximity of the taxiways to the runway. From what I understand is that they are too close.
Good to see the GLS in operation in MEL too. I was told that RW 34 can't have one due to airspace to the south and confliction with traffic OCTA. Not sure on the criteria that is applied but they still have other approaches commencing with around a ten mile final for RW 34.
I believe that SYD does not meet the requirements for CAT III due to the proximity of the taxiways to the runway. From what I understand is that they are too close.
Good to see the GLS in operation in MEL too. I was told that RW 34 can't have one due to airspace to the south and confliction with traffic OCTA. Not sure on the criteria that is applied but they still have other approaches commencing with around a ten mile final for RW 34.
The 787 lhr-per will use the cat3 rarely if at all. Arvo arrival. Tight northbound but more plentiful alts.
Why is it these days we can on most occasions get in and out of SYD (as big as it is) without feeder fix or holding carry on but MEL is every single arrival. Flying all over the country it stands out to me that MEL has something different. Even when there's hardly anyone flying you get a fix time which is then changed to cancel speed etc.
SYD and BNE copped it for years and the act got cleaned up well and truly.
SYD and BNE copped it for years and the act got cleaned up well and truly.
Why is it these days we can on most occasions get in and out of SYD (as big as it is) without feeder fix or holding carry on but MEL is every single arrival. Flying all over the country it stands out to me that MEL has something different. Even when there's hardly anyone flying you get a fix time which is then changed to cancel speed etc.
SYD and BNE copped it for years and the act got cleaned up well and truly.
SYD and BNE copped it for years and the act got cleaned up well and truly.
Why is it these days we can on most occasions get in and out of SYD (as big as it is) without feeder fix or holding carry on but MEL is every single arrival. Flying all over the country it stands out to me that MEL has something different. Even when there's hardly anyone flying you get a fix time which is then changed to cancel speed etc.
SYD and BNE copped it for years and the act got cleaned up well and truly.
SYD and BNE copped it for years and the act got cleaned up well and truly.
As to the delays, umm what do you think the "turn right heading 140" for 10 minutes at 250kts is achieving?
For better or worse our bean counters don't like having staffing above what is needed to handle "the usual" so at 2200 the numbers are well and truly winding down. Anything more ain't going to happen unless your bean counters demand it. And pay for it.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 59
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that SYD does not meet the requirements for CAT III due to the proximity of the taxiways to the runway.
They do have parallel runways in SY.... Last year SY had 332,000 fixed wing movements and ML had 238,000 - so SY has only 1.4 times the traffic. Call it 1.5 due to no curfew at ML.
As to the delays, umm what do you think the "turn right heading 140" for 10 minutes at 250kts is achieving?
As to the delays, umm what do you think the "turn right heading 140" for 10 minutes at 250kts is achieving?
Staffing at YSSY increased with the parallel runway. Director positions required, PRM positions required and more staff to allow TWR and TCU positions to be open longer (earlier and later).
YBBN has started planning for the increased staffing requirements that the parallel runway will demand.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To clarify this particular point - tonight I happened to talk to the en-route controller you mentioned. His comment about tower staffing was specifically in relation to LAHSO. Due to the review of LAHSO after the double go-around we had a while back we now have much stricter rules relating to the manning of various positions (tower, TMA, en-route and supervisors) before we can use LAHSO. This basically means day time staffing levels.
For better or worse our bean counters don't like having staffing above what is needed to handle "the usual" so at 2200 the numbers are well and truly winding down. Anything more ain't going to happen unless your bean counters demand it. And pay for it.
For better or worse our bean counters don't like having staffing above what is needed to handle "the usual" so at 2200 the numbers are well and truly winding down. Anything more ain't going to happen unless your bean counters demand it. And pay for it.
As pilots we don't see the big picture and don't understand what the delays may be caused by. What we do see sometimes though is minimum separation and we see that as a good thing but other times we get slowed right down and the closest aircraft may be 15 miles ahead and we don't understand how this occurs and why we had to slow down so much, disregarding aircraft categories.
What sort of separation do you use on approach for aircraft of the same category?
Does it increase the workload when you have to separate aircraft of different categories?
Thanks.
Without looking at the actual traffic at the time the gap could be there for a variety of reasons - the tower might want a gap to get a departure away, there might be a medevac chopper into EN that needs the gap, the traffic disposition might have been just right to allow some track shortening, perhaps the controller was being cautious and thought the front aircraft would be slow when it wasn't.
Unless it's a sight and follow approach needs to keep wake-turbulence separation as well as radar separation - for a pair of heavies that's 4NM and for a pair of mediums it's 3NM. Of course time is also needed to vacate the runway - high speed exits versus full length.
A 15 mile gap isn't particularly excessive if you're a medium following an international heavy - anything less than 12 miles (with matching ground speeds) when I hand you off at ARBEY for RWY34 or 27 and approach will have to slow you further to keep 5 miles wake turbulence on final. A medium following a super needs 7 miles, plus whatever for the super to vacate.
It's not an exact science - different aircraft types fly differently (Airbuses are generally slower than Boeings for similar sized aircraft) and different airlines fly differently. To an extent we're trying to predict (guessing) how each aircraft will be performing however many minutes into the future and planning the sequencing accordingly, along with accommodating random events intruding.
Mixing types and categories does increase the workload mainly due to different performance characteristics - a domestic 737 might be 10,000ft higher than an international A330 on profile at 100 miles, and still several 1000ft higher at ARBEY.
Unless it's a sight and follow approach needs to keep wake-turbulence separation as well as radar separation - for a pair of heavies that's 4NM and for a pair of mediums it's 3NM. Of course time is also needed to vacate the runway - high speed exits versus full length.
A 15 mile gap isn't particularly excessive if you're a medium following an international heavy - anything less than 12 miles (with matching ground speeds) when I hand you off at ARBEY for RWY34 or 27 and approach will have to slow you further to keep 5 miles wake turbulence on final. A medium following a super needs 7 miles, plus whatever for the super to vacate.
It's not an exact science - different aircraft types fly differently (Airbuses are generally slower than Boeings for similar sized aircraft) and different airlines fly differently. To an extent we're trying to predict (guessing) how each aircraft will be performing however many minutes into the future and planning the sequencing accordingly, along with accommodating random events intruding.
Mixing types and categories does increase the workload mainly due to different performance characteristics - a domestic 737 might be 10,000ft higher than an international A330 on profile at 100 miles, and still several 1000ft higher at ARBEY.
717tech, not enough these days to accurately say.
I guess the taxiway works may be also be a pretty big factor. I only say it as it stands out as "different" to the rest of the country. Having said that MEL does give a lot of notice to sort out a time whereas BNE like to leave it til the last minute.
I guess the taxiway works may be also be a pretty big factor. I only say it as it stands out as "different" to the rest of the country. Having said that MEL does give a lot of notice to sort out a time whereas BNE like to leave it til the last minute.