Qantas and the 787-900
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
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Regardless of whether it's fair or not a rotating seniority would get voted up because the amount of senior wood is far outnumbered by the rest these days...
We already have shared blank lines, shared annual leave and LSL and buckets on trips so your somewhat emotive proclamation that junior gets nothing and senior everything is false. That's another political trick, exaggerate.
Kings rarely vote for democracy....
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Here's an idea...remove overtime, night credits etc and you remove the financial incentive to stick to an inequitable rostering system. 
Haha! Really? Well, I guess time will tell exactly who is kidding themselves and who still has their head in the sand.
IMO offer anything similar to the ol' 767 or JQ330 rate, no night credit, no overtime (or overtime paid over a certain threshold per roster) and you just watch 'em trample over each other in the rush to fly the thing. Then again...maybe I'm kidding myself.
Dragon, it has been talked about and continues to be as a work in progress each and every SH roster. But I wouldn't worry too much about it champ. I'm sure the 787-9 conditions won't be acceptable to you so you need not be concerned.
To anyone who says that the 330 present hourly rate without night
credits is ok is kidding themselves.
credits is ok is kidding themselves.
IMO offer anything similar to the ol' 767 or JQ330 rate, no night credit, no overtime (or overtime paid over a certain threshold per roster) and you just watch 'em trample over each other in the rush to fly the thing. Then again...maybe I'm kidding myself.
Dragon, it has been talked about and continues to be as a work in progress each and every SH roster. But I wouldn't worry too much about it champ. I'm sure the 787-9 conditions won't be acceptable to you so you need not be concerned.
Is rotating seniority similar to the EK system of bid groups ? Eg Top, middle and bottom and you move through each group on a monthly basis with the top group getting what it wants and the bottom group picking up the rest.
Is rotating seniority similar to the EK system of bid groups ? Eg Top, middle and bottom and you move through each group on a monthly basis with the top group getting what it wants and the bottom group picking up the rest.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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2 Plus is spot on the money if you think they couldn't crew a new type in this environment on 767/JQ330 rates your delusional. Surely the last 10 years has proven get the Aircraft work on the conditions over time or should we let arrogance drive in the final nail.
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I'm not suggesting total fold but am pretty sure we won't be flying 787s on 330 conditions. If we took a different direction 10 years ago and agreed to crew the JQ aircraft now we would have an additional 100 aircraft in Qantas 3000 pilots I'm pretty sure we would have a little more bargaining power.
Now let's fast forward 10 years we Secure the aircraft and god forbid recruit would we not be in a better position than if they crew it elsewhere?
Just venting I guess it's been a disappointing Decade
Now let's fast forward 10 years we Secure the aircraft and god forbid recruit would we not be in a better position than if they crew it elsewhere?
Just venting I guess it's been a disappointing Decade
Mainline crew were never going to crew what is now Jetstar. Never. No matter how cheaply they sold their soul and professional dignity. They purchased the 320's so a new entity with new pilots could be employed under a different award. So chin up! It's very different this time.
Jetstar does not make money! Full Service carriers earn 2 to 2 and one half the revenue of a low cost carrier. Qantas cannot afford to sacrifice it's brand for Jetstar. The current management is only trying to maximise their bonuses. Do not be under any illusion that this is a typical Oldmeadow move to maximise the concessions given. If pilots weren't so self-obsessed they would see the real game here. Patience is the key!
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Ive been told by one of the negotiators that Oldmeadow has been locked out of the long haul negotiations. Apparently he's been bothering other pilots groups instead.
This holds true with a question I put to Andrew David last year before the negotiations began. My question; was this round of negotiations going to be consultants at 10 paces like the last few fiascos. The answer was a definate no. It will be him, Flt Ops management and AIPA reps. That's it.
I remember thinking at the time that I hoped that finally common sense will prevail and this round will be conducted in an environment of mutual respect. Hopefully, if these rumours have some basis in fact maybe we've finally seen some common sense. I sincerely hope so.
This holds true with a question I put to Andrew David last year before the negotiations began. My question; was this round of negotiations going to be consultants at 10 paces like the last few fiascos. The answer was a definate no. It will be him, Flt Ops management and AIPA reps. That's it.
I remember thinking at the time that I hoped that finally common sense will prevail and this round will be conducted in an environment of mutual respect. Hopefully, if these rumours have some basis in fact maybe we've finally seen some common sense. I sincerely hope so.
You move UP the list 6% per 28 day bid period. The list rotates completely in about 15 months. Works really well. Anyone who knocks it, hasn't used it.
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bdcer, not necessarily. The company most likely wants to have the contract sorted before announcing - costs/certainty and all that.
A new deal for a new type would probably be a win for most who would be interested, and nothing wrong with impassioned senior colleagues choosing to remain passionately senior forever.
Might finally manage to secure some growth, rather than just talk about it while it's being auctioned off elsewhere.
A new deal for a new type would probably be a win for most who would be interested, and nothing wrong with impassioned senior colleagues choosing to remain passionately senior forever.
Might finally manage to secure some growth, rather than just talk about it while it's being auctioned off elsewhere.
Classic, so for all the talk about how management have overstated the dire financial position etc. the majority of people on here now accept the need for a 'b' scale! Seems like management have won this round and we see once again pilots willing to sell themselves short to guarantee getting their hands on the shiny new toys. Alan will be most pleased.
I guess we will see if and when there is a vote. That comment seems a bit rich when you're criticising the same group who have built, set and protected Australian pilot conditions. Truth is when you have pilots who jump at sub standard conditions, it forces everyone to rethink their position. Whatever the outcome I suspect we won't be bashing our fists on the table in 10 years time crying "it's not fair".
For many years now on this forum it seems every man, woman and child have been telling Qantas pilots that they need to change.
Your dinosaurs, out of touch, greedy, stolen all the milk and so on.
Now that Qantas pilots have, and most of us have, realised that we do need to adapt (due to actions outside of our control) there seems to be anger from other parts of the group about us selling out. As it seems maybe Qantas pilots will get to fly airplanes with Qantas written on the side.
I'm not sure what everyone expected. Qantas pilots don't live in a bubble.
Your dinosaurs, out of touch, greedy, stolen all the milk and so on.
Now that Qantas pilots have, and most of us have, realised that we do need to adapt (due to actions outside of our control) there seems to be anger from other parts of the group about us selling out. As it seems maybe Qantas pilots will get to fly airplanes with Qantas written on the side.
I'm not sure what everyone expected. Qantas pilots don't live in a bubble.
Last edited by Fatguyinalittlecoat; 7th Feb 2015 at 22:22.
Ollie, whether the dire financials of mainline international are accurate or not doesn't really matter because management believe them. Management have canceled routes, canceled aircraft orders and sent flying out to other group entities based on their belief in those figures. So the damage is done and that is what we need to react to.
Our strategy for years has indeed preserved our terms and conditions but growth and promotions have gone by the wayside. Perhaps it's time for a new direction??
Our strategy for years has indeed preserved our terms and conditions but growth and promotions have gone by the wayside. Perhaps it's time for a new direction??
Nunc est bibendum
Over the last 6 1/2 years mainline has shrunk by about 300-350 pilots and we have 150-200 on LWOP. That's based on the seniority list from July last year. I reckon we're looking at another 50ish on top of that for this year given this is the year when most of the VRs take effect. 15%? 20%? Closer to 25% smaller in six years?
100ish pilots have been demoted. Still more have been forcibly RIN'd from a particular fleet to a smaller fleet where they'll be paid significantly less. Whilst 767 F/Os who were RIN'd to S/O A380 will earn more it is cold comfort to many of them given they gave up the extra $$$ to be an F/O 6+ years ago.
Meanwhile, 737 hours have reduced by 10-15% also. Once upon a time, divisors in the high 70s and pilots flying low to mid 80s regularly was the norm. Now the divisor is in the high 60s and extra flying hours difficult to come by as I understand it- perhaps a bit easier now with the recent demise of the 767.
These are the facts of what has occurred recently. This is where our current award has taken us. Whether we think it's right or not or whether we feel it was justified or not we have been dealt out of the game. We can continue to be dealt out or we can find a way to be dealt back in again. How to achieve that is the question.
So here's something really radical. Rather than the new type being a specific fleet pay rate, how about it becomes the new 'fleet pay' rate. Perhaps we can kill a couple of birds in one stone. Not only will it apply to the 787, maybe it will also apply to the A350 and the 777 (CCQ with the 787 anyway? ) and whatever replaces the Dugong in 15 years time.
100ish pilots have been demoted. Still more have been forcibly RIN'd from a particular fleet to a smaller fleet where they'll be paid significantly less. Whilst 767 F/Os who were RIN'd to S/O A380 will earn more it is cold comfort to many of them given they gave up the extra $$$ to be an F/O 6+ years ago.
Meanwhile, 737 hours have reduced by 10-15% also. Once upon a time, divisors in the high 70s and pilots flying low to mid 80s regularly was the norm. Now the divisor is in the high 60s and extra flying hours difficult to come by as I understand it- perhaps a bit easier now with the recent demise of the 767.
These are the facts of what has occurred recently. This is where our current award has taken us. Whether we think it's right or not or whether we feel it was justified or not we have been dealt out of the game. We can continue to be dealt out or we can find a way to be dealt back in again. How to achieve that is the question.
So here's something really radical. Rather than the new type being a specific fleet pay rate, how about it becomes the new 'fleet pay' rate. Perhaps we can kill a couple of birds in one stone. Not only will it apply to the 787, maybe it will also apply to the A350 and the 777 (CCQ with the 787 anyway? ) and whatever replaces the Dugong in 15 years time.