Radio Call at the Beacon
Thread Starter
Radio Call at the Beacon
Hi Guys and Girls - In a situation where an aircraft is tracking towards a beacon for a procedural approach and the heading requires a course reversal (parallel, offset or direct), would you expect any calls for the first passage over the beacon if you have cleared them for the approach and asked them to call 'beacon outbound'?
Cheers
TeeS
Cheers
TeeS
Thread Starter
Hi JC
Just to clarify, we haven't had any complaints but there have been several occasions where confusion has occured by pilots trying to clarify the situation. In the case of a pilot reporting 'entering the hold', the response on occasions has been, 'confirm you are beacon outbound' or ' you were cleared for the approach, why are you joining the hold?'
The procedure that seems to cause the least confusion is to say nothing on first arrival at the beacon and then just report 'beacon outbound'. I believe this is what is technically correct but I'm keen to know whether that is what controllers expect or want.
Cheers
TeeS
Just to clarify, we haven't had any complaints but there have been several occasions where confusion has occured by pilots trying to clarify the situation. In the case of a pilot reporting 'entering the hold', the response on occasions has been, 'confirm you are beacon outbound' or ' you were cleared for the approach, why are you joining the hold?'
The procedure that seems to cause the least confusion is to say nothing on first arrival at the beacon and then just report 'beacon outbound'. I believe this is what is technically correct but I'm keen to know whether that is what controllers expect or want.
Cheers
TeeS
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Personally I would prefer if you have been cleared for the approach before the beacon, for you to iterate during your read-back that you will be 'carrying out a reversal first' just so's there is no confusion on timings, particularly if you are a borderline case for being able to go straight outbound (without a reversal).
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USA...
Beacon outbound
Beacon inbound
nice...but once in radar contact, probably not required. when radar contact lost/terminated you report mandatory reporting points, and other reporting points as requested and altitude changes.
Beacon outbound
Beacon inbound
nice...but once in radar contact, probably not required. when radar contact lost/terminated you report mandatory reporting points, and other reporting points as requested and altitude changes.
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Radio Call at the Beacon
Ok TeeS. I was taught (perhaps by traditionalists...) that the "taking up the hold" call describes the entrance (sector 1,2 or 3) you are making to establish on the beacon.
The controller then knows that you are manoeuvring over the beacon and the next call heard (providing he's been cleared the procedure) will be "beacon outbound" because really the joining procedure (sectors 1,2 or 3) count as a hold anyway. Ask any stressed out IR student...
Unless it's all changed, AGAIN! :s
The controller then knows that you are manoeuvring over the beacon and the next call heard (providing he's been cleared the procedure) will be "beacon outbound" because really the joining procedure (sectors 1,2 or 3) count as a hold anyway. Ask any stressed out IR student...
Unless it's all changed, AGAIN! :s
Thread Starter
Sorry, I do believe it has JC.
When I first did my IR, I have vague memories of three calls for the hold - 'Joining', 'Taking Up' and 'In' the hold. Now my understanding is that there is just one - 'Entering the Hold' which you make first time over the beacon. In the case I am talking about though, we are not entering the hold, we are just carrying out a course reversal as part of the approach procedure.
Cheers
TeeS
When I first did my IR, I have vague memories of three calls for the hold - 'Joining', 'Taking Up' and 'In' the hold. Now my understanding is that there is just one - 'Entering the Hold' which you make first time over the beacon. In the case I am talking about though, we are not entering the hold, we are just carrying out a course reversal as part of the approach procedure.
Cheers
TeeS
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TeeS,
When I was under training, probably by what many would consider to be older and bolder controllers, the preference seemed to be a call "taking the hold" you have done you entry procedure and are now flying the holding pattern. Then the next call I would want is your final turn inbound ready to go beacon outbound, so that I could give you your clearance in good time and it aids my planning. And it works, because if I'm not ready for you to go beacon outbound, I may have other slower traffic on the final approach track, you have enough time to set up for once more round the hold and I know that you ready whenever I am.
Never had any problems.
SG
When I was under training, probably by what many would consider to be older and bolder controllers, the preference seemed to be a call "taking the hold" you have done you entry procedure and are now flying the holding pattern. Then the next call I would want is your final turn inbound ready to go beacon outbound, so that I could give you your clearance in good time and it aids my planning. And it works, because if I'm not ready for you to go beacon outbound, I may have other slower traffic on the final approach track, you have enough time to set up for once more round the hold and I know that you ready whenever I am.
Never had any problems.
SG
Thread Starter
Hi Stylo
The problem is not where we go into the hold and then outbound in the procedure, the situation occurs when we are approaching the beacon from outside of 30 degrees of the outbound track and are cleared for the approach (i.e. there is no delay on reaching the beacon), we need to complete a course reversal by appropriate means; my question is to controllers as to whether they are happy for us to remain silent until we are actually beacon outbound or whether they would like a wordy explanation of the fact that we will be spending a couple of minutes floundering around the hold until we are pointing in the correct direction.
Cheers
TeeS
The problem is not where we go into the hold and then outbound in the procedure, the situation occurs when we are approaching the beacon from outside of 30 degrees of the outbound track and are cleared for the approach (i.e. there is no delay on reaching the beacon), we need to complete a course reversal by appropriate means; my question is to controllers as to whether they are happy for us to remain silent until we are actually beacon outbound or whether they would like a wordy explanation of the fact that we will be spending a couple of minutes floundering around the hold until we are pointing in the correct direction.
Cheers
TeeS
Last edited by TeeS; 8th Aug 2012 at 23:00.
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Given that situation, and it was me, I would expect one call going beacon outbound. As you have been cleared for the XXX procedure and I wouldn't be interested that you have joined.
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Cap 413 seems to want you to state entering the hold.
It also points out that:
So, if more than 30d off the outbound radio, an aircraft will be entering the hold and thus, in my mind, should call doing so.
It also points out that:
All manoeuvres associated with entering the holding pattern are considered to be part of the holding procedure.
Pilot transmits callsign, aircraft type, position, flight level, flight conditions, estimate for the beacon and requests type of approach required.
When overhead the beacon, pilot reports 'Callsign, entering the hold, maintaining (altitude/flight level)'.
Pilot reports 'Callsign, beacon outbound' (in Figure 2 when overhead the beacon).
Pilot reports 'Callsign, base turn complete'.
Pilot reports 'Callsign, 4 DME' (or other position as
When overhead the beacon, pilot reports 'Callsign, entering the hold, maintaining (altitude/flight level)'.
Pilot reports 'Callsign, beacon outbound' (in Figure 2 when overhead the beacon).
Pilot reports 'Callsign, base turn complete'.
Pilot reports 'Callsign, 4 DME' (or other position as
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Radio Call at the Beacon
So there we are then. In summary;
The call is "entering the hold" (no longer "taking up...") and one should make it when performing a sector 1,2 or 3 hold entry, regardless of whether you are staying in the hold or simply manoeuvring to go outbound on the procedure.
Thanks ILT for picking up CAP413 where the rest of us couldn't be arsed.
The call is "entering the hold" (no longer "taking up...") and one should make it when performing a sector 1,2 or 3 hold entry, regardless of whether you are staying in the hold or simply manoeuvring to go outbound on the procedure.
Thanks ILT for picking up CAP413 where the rest of us couldn't be arsed.
