Why Chinese in Aviation ??(Merged)

[ronnie123]

KA is doing a lot of local recuritment in Hong Kong. Why do they ask for :
"Good command of both spoken and written English and Chinese"

Even for positions relating to flight safety etc . :confused:

[Hong Xing]

ronnie 123:

Things are changing comrade. If you want to be part of the new order then you had better get with it. Aviation uses both Chinese and English so in this matter Dragon Air could be considered the Á'µ¼.

Hong Xing

P.S. ÃæÄ¿È«ÐÂ

[Hong Xing]

An Omitted Language:

There are ten national languages listed on Pprune under the banner of " Non English Language Forums ", Africa, Canada (French), Middle East, Far East, Caribbean, Latin America, Nordic, French, Spanish and Italian. I would like to ask the administrators (via the Fragrant Harbour moderator) why it is that Fragrant Harbour does not qualify as a Non English speaking forum when one consdiers that Hong Kong is part of the Peoples Republic of China where the language spoken is Chinese not English ?

Aviation requires English to run parallel with all the above languages and I can't understand why the discrimination against Fragrant Harbour. I would have thought both protocol and good manners are the order of the day in matters such as this.

Hong Xing

P. S. Ëĺ£ ®ÄÚ½ÔÐ µÜ

[HotDog]

Hong Xing, if you didn't speak English, you would not be employed in aviation in Hong Kong. Maybe you should complain to Tung Chee Wha instead.

[jtr]

Good luck spearheading the new order wun wing. Soon as you get all those troublesome gweilos out of the CAD you will be well on the way.

[BlueEagle]

As you are probably aware, all the participants in the 'Foreign' language forums speak both that foreign language and English.
Were PPRuNe to set up a Chinese language forum, (Mandarin, Cantonese, Hockien?), the majority of aviaition people in the area covered by the Fragrant Harbour forum would not be able to understand it, now THAT would be discrimination with a capital D.

I have passed your comments back to the BB Administrators but bear in mind that you are asking for a facility that no one else on PPRuNe gets.

regards,

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[ronnie123]

Mr. Xing,
"COMRADE" seems like Iam back in the 50s even tho I was not born in the good old glory days.

So whats really changing & what new order, mate ! dare if I call you mate. Pls help clr this for me.

Thks.

[smallwing]

KA is interested in hiring chinese cadets, not just people that have the right of abode in HK like CX.

Choice is yours.

[smallwing]

Hong Xing,

Next time you go on a flight and speak chinese, see if the guy sitting next to you will give you a dirty look.

Who doesn't know english is the language of aviation? What is the big deal about this chinese bit with these topics anyways?

Next time, ask your ops as to why the SOP is not in chinese..

[Hong Xing]

BlueEagle:
Thanks for your reply. What you say about discriminatin is not really correct. Chinese when written using the stylised characters or the alphabetical pinyin system is understood by all literate Chinese people. The dialects you refer to are only concerned with sound ie how the word is pronounced and they have nothing to do with how the word is written. To put it another way is to say Chinese is a pictorial, not a phonetic language. Words are pronounced differently in different provinices, even though they are written in the same way and have the same meaning. Thus it stands that the written word is all embracing. There is no difference between me seeing French on the French Forum and not understanding it and a Hong Kong expatriate seeing Chinese on the Fragrant Harbour screen and not understanding it. Same Thing.
I am not asking for a separate forum for Chinese only, I am only asking that the title of Fragrant Harbour be amended to reflect and remind that Chinese is encouraged. If one cares to think geographically then surely that's not too much to ask. Perhaps you would be kind enough to pass this onto the administrator.
Regards,

Hong Xing

¸ÐлÄãµÄ»Ø¸´, ÒÔÉϵÄÎÄÕÂÊÇÎÒµÄÒªÇó, Ï£ÍûÈÕºóÄÜÓкºÓïÌ ÂÛÀ¸Ä¿¡£(I have just written thanks and a very brief outline of the above. Time is a little short tonight).

[Hong Xing]

anyewo:

Please check your private message box for some correspondence.

Ç'¿´ÄãµÄ˽ÈËÐżþÏä¡£

Regards,

Hong Xing

[jtr]

Why dont you just go nuts and post in all the barbed wire you wish young grasshopper. Seems you are able to do it, and for those who have the correct script package downloaded, it can be read.

Fragrant Harbour-A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum, as is Hong Xing, who may post till his little heart is content in whatever script he desires ¡£

¶ñ±ùÇþ²Á!

[BlueEagle]

As has been stated many times before, the official language of PPRuNe is English and this will not change in the foreseeable future.
Currently none of the moderators are sufficiently conversant in Chinese, (any dialect), for a separate forum to be feasible, though that may not always be the case.

When I mentioned discrimination I was not talking about discrimination between Chinese dialects.

The majority of aviation people in the area covered by the Fragrant Harbour forum speak English, a few, a minority, also speak a dialect of Chinese. Hopefully, eventually, PPRuNe will reach out into the major part of Chinese aviation and cover the whole of China.

It is not within the nature of PPRuNe to cater to any minority, to do so would make the entire bulletin board quite unmanageable, to cater for any minority would also be discriminatory.

If you have any further questions on this subject you may wish to contact the Administrators directly? [email protected]

regards,

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[ronnie123]

Hong Xing,

Why dont you start your own PPRUNE.COM in CHINESE. This way every one is happy.:rolleyes:

[shortly]

Hey Hong Xing. Good wind up, not too busy are we? I suggest you spend a bit more time in the books - English I hasten to add -that might improve your professional knowledge. I just wasted a few minutes investigating those ten non-english language forums to find that around 95% of the posts are in that dreaded language English. Given the teensy number of ethnic Chinese aviators in Hong Kong, all of whom speak - or should - good english do you really expect the moderators to employ a Chinese linguist to keep posts under a modicum of control?

[Hong Xing]

BlueEagle:

If from time to time a matter arises that causes me to feel I can express myself more eloquently in Chinese than in English would what I write be removed from Fragrant Harbour?
Chinese is a most descriptive language and I'm sure it would be appreciated by Dragon Air's Chinese Captains and First Officers, their newly expected Chinese cadets from mainland China and Cathay's Chinese First Officers. I know you have asked me to refer all this direct to the administrator but I would appreciate a reply to this question as it will allow me to present my case in full.
Regards,

Hong Xing

Èç¹ûżȻ¼äÎÒÓúºÓï׫дÀ¸Ä¿£¬ÕâЩÎÄÕ»á·ñ±»ÄãÃÇɾµô£¿ÒòΪººÓï ÊÇÒ» Ê®· ·á¸»ÐÎÈݺͱ'´ïÄÚÐĸÐÇéµÄÓïÑÔ£¬Ëü²»½öÄܳä·Ý·¢»ÓÎÒËù Ðè±'´ïµÄÎÄ× £¬²¢ÇÒÊÇÎÒµÄĸÓï¡£Îҿ϶¨ËùÓиÛÁúº½¿ÕºÍ¹úÌ©µÄ»ª½å »úʦ¶¼ÓÐͬ¸Ð¡£( Translation of all the above, but slightly abbreviated.)

[BlueEagle]

In order to protect this bulletin board from litigation, in the event that a poster makes a libellous statement, for example, it is a requirement that all posts be moderated.

Currently there are no moderators on PPRuNe that speak and read Chinese and consequently a post in Chinese could not be properly moderated. As a means of legal protection for PPRuNe only and not as an act of discrimination a post in Chinese would be removed. In the event that PPRuNe is able to find Chinese speaking moderators at some time in the future then it is possible that posts in Chinese will then be allowed.

You are, of course, at liberty to establish your own bulletin board and you can specify that the Chinese language may be used, you will be accepting full legal responsibility for anything that appears on such a bulletin board.

Sorry that PPRuNe cannot be more accommodating at this stage, nevertheless, we hope you are able to continue to enjoy this facility which is provided to you completely free of charge.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[nike]

Blue Eagle,

what is the 'hiring' process for moderator's?

This Hong Xing character could possibly fill the role of

In the event that PPRuNe is able to find Chinese speaking moderators at some time in the future then it is possible that posts in Chinese will then be allowed.

thereby solving both of your issues at once.

[BlueEagle]

As a general rule of thumb only, Moderators are normally picked from among PPRuNers who have been on these bulletin boards for a number of years, have a depth of experience commensurate with the forums on which they moderate, frequently are already known personally to the Administrators, (though this is not always the case), and are people who have the energy and time to spend many hours ploughing through the forums.

The quality of their posts will have some bearing on whether they are picked or not to be a moderator. In my case I had been registered with PPRuNe for seven years before being selected.

Of course there is a bit more to it than that, an ability to remain objective, not get involved in arguments or take sides in any way, recognise when a post is irrelevant, off-topic, insulting or has the potential to be libellous etc., to name but a few.

Hong Xing first registered in July 2003 and has so far made eight posts, it will be up to the Administrators of PPRuNe to make all and any decisions regarding a Chinese language forum.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Hong Xing]

BlueEagle:

I'd say we have now just about covered everything in detail. I'll contact the administrators and ask them to consider my request for Chinese to be allowed on Fragrant Harbour . This will be based on our discussion, which I have rather enjoyed. (Request to adminstrators is copied below).
Regards,

Hong Xing

Sent to Pprune administration and copied here.
Gentlemen:
This is to ask if you would consider allowing Chinese to be used on " Fragrant Harbour "? I have discussed the matter at great length with BlueEagle (moderator) and our points of view are set out within " An Omitted Language " which is presently running on "Fragrant Harbour " . Would you be kind enough to look at what has been said with a view to my request.
Sincerely,
Hong Xing

[HotDog]

Hong Xing,I can express myself more eloquently in Chinese . You are quite right, the Chinese language, especially the Cantonese dialect, is extremely colourful and expressive. Go for it but don't tell me to interfere with my mother!:E

[Hong Xing]

BlueEagle:

There is a post on Tech Log dated 30 July 2003 which is of interest to me and I wonder if you would be kind enough to comment on it.

The posting (from Anyewo) has a title in Chinese only and the text is in Chinese only. There is not one word of English. I replied to Anyewo using Chinese only and that post still sits in Tech Log nearly one month later. Considering what you said about the legal ramifications of monitoring all languages (and by the way I agree with this) it seems there is someone within the Tech Log team who could be the moderator we seek. Regards,

Hong Xing

[BlueEagle]

Thanks for the 'heads-up' Hong Xing, I wasn't aware of that thread until now. The Tech Log moderators have had their attention drawn to it.

regards,

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[aeneas]

Hong Xing,

- Most Hong Kong Chinese aviation professionals received most of their education in English, and are more comfortable discussing aviation related matters in English, rather than Chinese.

- Most Hong Kong people use traditional Chinese. Many are uncomfortable with and have difficulties reading simplified Chinese. All your messages were written in simplified Chinese.

- Your Chinese looks very stilted to a Hong Konger. They are all written in a very typical mainland style. Hong Kong people don't write like that.

- This is a forum about aviation in Hong Kong. You are welcome to start your own forum about aviation in China in the Chinese language. However, I don't see why does that have anything to do with the Fragrant Harbour forum.

[PPRuNe Towers]

I spent an hour in the exec lounge of a european Hilton hotel this evening.

The only other occupants were a large group having an extremely spirited conversation in Arabic. I understood much more than the basics of the entire argument because they were Arab aviators discussing test and acceptance flying along with SOPs and procedures. I understood because the discussion had to be conducted more in English than their native tongue.

Conversely try writing a sentence using longeron and aileron with only genuine English words.

In a technical trade such as ours most languages simply do not have the words to express yourself unless a government decrees it out of sheer bloody mindedness. I'm from a proud Welsh speaking family but even I humbly accept that going home in a 'tacsi' so I can catch the footy on my 'digidol' TV is utter bollocks.

English is the de facto 'World' language and it has precious little to do with perfidious Albion. We have a significant readership in the PRC and they write to us in the language they use professionally. Same with Taiwan.

Nothing to do with being a post-imperial remnant here at the Towers. English is the lingua franca of worldwide aviation even when nations use another of the approved ICAO languages in its own airspace.

Finally, the other foreign language forums all lend themselves to a quick cut and paste into a babel fish type translator to give us a rough and ready indication of whether it needs viewing by one of our legal team.

Therefore it is a case of not now, perhaps not never but certainly not at the moment.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Hong Xing]

aeneas:

I don't agree with you when you say my Chinese writing is stilted, a little formal perhaps but that's how I like it. Are you aware that Chairman Mao Tze Tung issued instructions to modify the classical written word so that literacy could be expanded and that this has been the policy of Central Government for years. I comply with this but unfortunately the colloquial speakers of Hong Kong are not up to speed. The mandarin speaking people of Taiwan are much better but their style of writing will be imminently improved when Taiwan is united with the motherland.

Pprune Towers:

An imperial edict or decree required no advised consideration and no justification. The emperor simply reached for his royal seal and stamped it into law. (That is of course until 1911.) I am pleased to hear you have contact with the People Republic of China and Taiwan.
Regards,

Hong Xing

[Dixi Normus]

The reason Microsoft became such an industrial giant is because computer programming language is common worldwide. 80%+ of the world's PCs runs on MS Windows. Granted there might be regional language version of Windows, but the basic computer code is the same.

Aviation (flying and engineering) is the same. Even the French Airbus have their manuals in English. This will prevent accidents by eliminating ambiguous meanings. The Chinese started all English ATC in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou FIRs on Sep. 1st for the same reason.

I understand Hong Xing patriotic reasons for using Chinese but most aviation professional will not mind discussing technical matters in English. This is not a matter of discrimination or national pride but a matter of practicality. As they say, the winners writes the history books. If the Germans and Japanese have won WWII we would be flying Junkers and Zeros! Sayonara!

[Traffic]

Kifis

Welcome back!

[Plastique]

Sure it's an ommitted language.
Last week an MOR was raised by a CX A330 crew who couldn't understand a single word the (HAECO) ground engineer was saying on the headset.
Eventually the S/O a native Cantonese speaker spoke to the engineer and worked out that he was saying 'don't start the engines until we have pushed you back further'.

Great ;-)

[leftfrontside]

Hong Xing from my limited understanding of the spoken Chinese language albiet Mandarin.

Clear to Take-Off is Clear to Start Driving as its literate English translation and Clear to Land is Clear to Touch Land

I fail to see how Fragrant Harbour would benefit from such a proposal except to allienate English speakers. :suspect:

[kazumichik]

Hong Xing, Mighty Han Language Warrior, you are sorely mistaken.

So, Paedophile Mao, your chosen standard bearer of Han superiority, was duly elected in a China-wide election and given the mandate to eliminate all variations of the Chinese language?

Oh, you say he wasn't elected? That means he must have assumed the Mandate of Heaven to achieve the legitimacy necessary to justify the horrors (not all of them linguistic) he brought down on China, the very political theory which his enemies the Qing, et al, used to justify their grasp on power. Does Putonghua have a word for "irony"? Does it have one that means "egregious abuse of power"?

There will be an improvement in the Chinese language when Taiwan reassumes control of the Mainland because they will introduce several colorful expressions like:

"ELECTION",

"HUMAN RIGHTS",

and

"DON'T MASSACRE UNARMED STUDENTS",

or maybe,

"BRUSH THAT DAMN RACIAL CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER AND GET ON WITH BEING A MEMBER OF THE HUMAN RACE".

Kindest regards (or Zaijian, if you prefer, as you almost certainly will not because it is not written in Syphlitic Mao's horrifically ugly simplified Hanzi),

Kazumichik



P.S. I know that your pride is hurt by the fact that the world's language is English and not your own. The French have gotten over this; perhaps it is time for you to do the same. And you might do so by realizing that having large numbers of Chinese in the world does not mean that Beijing Mandarin ought to replace English. The world doesn't work that way.

Perhaps you could spend your time more productively. Finding a few of the millions of highly capable IT types in China and setting up a Mandarin aviation message board would be a good idea. If you do that I will not get on it and whine and complain and tell you what this or that English-speaking political leader said or did with regard to the English language. I promise.

[Hong Xing]

To : All National pilots of PRC, Hong Kong and Taiwan

I trust you have observed the way my simple request to use both Chinese and English has drawn out an anti-Chinese element and I would like to suggest you file this fact in your memory bank. It was not my intention to fan jian ji (sow discord and create enmity) but the fools of Pprune have headed it in that direction. Driven no doubt by a feeling of insecurity.

To: The closet dwellers

You negative speakers have nicely watered the seed I planted. Stick around and watch it grow.

Hong Xing

[nike]

To Hong Xing,

Do you normally throw your toys when you don't get your way?

That last post was impressive to say the least.

The honorable way to react in this instance would be the thank PPRUNE for considering your request, then accept their decision as the decree of the mighty ruler of this space.

You are obviously an individual struggling in the sea of freedom.

Good luck to you in your future endeavours.:hmm:

[slapfaan]

Geagte meneer moderator,

Ek wil graag vra dat FRAGRANT HARBOUR hervernoem word na:

STINKGAT HAWE

en dat hierdie forum in die toekoms slegs in AFRIKAANS aangebied sal word,want ek voel dat daar teen al die "japies" in CX ge-diskrimineer word...

Baie dankie vir u moeite

Die uwe

Slapfaan



(English version)

Dear moderator,

I hereby wish to request that FRAGRANT HARBOUR be re-named:

STINKGAT HAWE (afrikaans version)

and that this forum be conducted in AFRIKAANS only,because I feel that all the "japies" here at CX are being discriminated against....

Thank you for all your trouble

Yours sincerely

Slapfaan

[mcdude]

And as of 1st September 2003, the language to be used in Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou on Terminal / Approach / Departure / Tower / Ground control frequencies is...........English

[mrben]

"KA is interested in hiring chinese cadets, not just people that have the right of abode in HK like CX.

What about chinese people who can't speak chinese, or white people who can speak chinese.

Interested to know whether it's a race thing or a language thing.

[HotDog]

I think you'll find the Chinese language requirement applies to cabin crew applicants. Exactly the same as Cathay.

[mrben]

Cadet Pilots are considered as part of Cabin Crew?

I ask what I ask because I'm Chinese, but I can't really speak any Chinese. If they prefer Chinese Cadets over Expat/Caucasian Cadets then I'm good to go. If they prefer Chinese Cadets over Expat Cadets because they want Chinese speaking Cadets, then I'm at a disadvantage.

[ronnie123]

Cadets are NOT cabin crew ! I feel its the race thing. KA wants Chinese only, no matter what position. Unlike CX who has a good mix of Multi ethnic pilots and cabin crew.

[Hong Xing]

I could buy back into this with something real to say if only I could respond in Chinese. Blue Eagle would not like that as Chinese is forbidden in his English only celestrial empire so a comment in English must suffice. Dragon Air have got it right and if people like Comrade Ronnie 123 can't understand that then they should stay away. After all Dragon Air is a Chinese oriented airline. Simple really, one does not need a lot of brains to understand their policy.
Regards to all (including the unenlightened).

Hong Xing

[ronnie123]

Hong ! Go on stir the pot... who cares !

[BlueEagle]

Yes, I did pass on the ruling of the owners of this Bulletin Board regarding the use of a foreign language and I seem to remember that Prune Towers spelt it out for you? We don't live in a celestial (you did mean celestial didn't you?) empire unfortunately, just the aviation world in which less than two percent have a reasonable command of the Chinese language and specifically on PPRuNe where I would suggest that less than one percent can understand Chinese.

Not quite sure, therefore, why you would wish to express yourself in Chinese rather than English and have less than one percent of readers have a clue what you are talking about?

And as a matter of interest, are you the person to ask why it is that the converted from other languages and cultures are often more intense and devoted about their adopted culture/language than those actually born within a particular culture and or language?

[fire wall]

Hong Xing, if you are sincere in advancing the cause for the implementation of the Chinese language into the everyday transactions and communications of the aviation community then may I humbly suggest you stay away from your keyboard for you do nothing but further your cause from fruition. Further, your grating diatribe is irritating and belies your lack of experience and maturity.
And finally my regards to you ..............for you are the unenlightened.

[gissmonkey]

I wonder why Beijing and Shanghai are changing to ENGLISH ATC if chinese is sooooo good????:suspect: :ouch:

[Flying Bagel]

Perhaps KA needs more pilots who can curse out the Chinese ATC whenever they issue contradictory clearances.

Or maybe they just need more Chinese speaking pilots to cover for the cabin crew whenever they're short in the back. You know, send the s/o to the cattle class to serve Diet Coke and cup noodles.

Oh who knows. Maybe it is a race thing afterall. Though really, I reckon this is more or less a minor detail (it is only a requirement for local crew, not expat), perhaps blown out of proportion.

However, I suppose everything gets blown out of proportion on PPrune. Otherwise, it should remove the word 'rumour' from the moniker...

[Hong Xing]

Blue Eagle:

I don't know where you obtained that figure of one percent but what I do know is that this matter is of interest to the hundreds of pilots that now fly for Dragon Air and Cathay. Even you must concede this is an ever increasing number whereas your faithful are decreasing. In any case you and I will never agree on this issue as it is apparent that we are poles apart. The best we can hope for is to try and keep our disagreement civilised.

Yes I did mean celestial. The r slipped in because I broke my own rule regarding checking the English dictionary for the spelling of words that I don't often use.

Finally I am somewhat bemused to read your insinuations that equate patriotism with ( for example ) that notorious group known as the 516. Are you implying that I am a 516 er and if you are then I find this for any number of reasons most derogatory. It does you no credit. Regards,

Hong Xing

[BlueEagle]

You flatter yourself!

I have not the slightest idea what a "516er" is, not a clue.

Reading through your various posts you come across as a Westerner, in English you don't sound one bit Chinese. That is all, no conspiracy, no insinuation, nothing.

[ronnie123]

Hong,
You did not reply , Then why is Beijing And Shanghai changing to ENGLISH ATC.
Its a simple question I had asked in the begining "Why Chinese in Aviation"
no race , no ideals , no pro asia or anti asia, non of that. Iam asian too, all I wanted was some more info on the subject and look what you have it into. I have 2 words for you COMRADE "INFERIORITY COMPLEX":mad:

[HotDog]

"Why Chinese in Aviation" Why indeed? The official languge in Xianggang Tebie Xingzhengqu is Cantonese and English and will remain so even after fifty years. That's one of the reasons Xiang Gang is widely known as Hong Kong in the rest of the world comerade Hong Xing.

[Hong Xing]

Blue Eagle:

You are perfectly at liberty to form whatever conclusions you wish but whatever those conclusions are it will not change the matter in hand one iota. It is not for me to give you a history lesson and I don't intend to do that but if I did you might change your views especially if I reminded you that there are a number of English spearking countries where one can be educated. Considering your position as a moderator who is expected to have an in depth knowledge of Asian affairs I am surprised at your frank admission about the 516. Sadly you can't flatter yourself but if you ever find the answer I will be the first to congratulate you.
Regards (Wen Hou),

Hong Xing

[ronnie123]

Hong,
Why would you choose to be educated in English and then go on about the chinese bit:confused:
And you still dont answer my question? You call me names etc, but dont answer my questions.

[shortly]

Dear Blue Eagle,
I know a bit about 516, it is an even number, it is the one before 517 and the one after 515. It also relates to an initiative in California (I think) which is an ESL - English as a second language - project. Bit sensitive our little stirrer is. I have never understood the racist rubbish he goes on with. As far as I understand it English is THE language for aviation in ALL the world, even the French know this, you can use national language in communication with internal carriers. But, in aviation it is English all the way. Why do CX and CI insist on abilities to speak and read a Chinese language? Answer they don't. Certainly doesn't hurt especially if you have a bit of Mandarin, however, a good candidate will get a Cadet slot notwithstanding only speaking English. Good stirring Hong keep it up. But don't think anyone is taking you seriously - you lack credibility.
PS. Being involved in CX aircrew employment I confirm that localisation is an agenda for at least CX. However that said, maybe in that fifty years that affects Xiang Gang so directly we may see an increase in the one odd percent of pilots at CX. Certainly not at present, currently recruiting for FO and SO spots as hard as we can interview. If we put all the applicants in a room and gassed them we would not hurt a single Chinese person. Localisation is only coming through the cadet programme and it is going to take a long, long, long time to achieve that goal.

[Flap 5]

Most of the chinese F/O's I flew with couldn't speak Mandarin but only spoke Cantonese, so they weren't much use from the linguistic point of view. The recruitment of chinese cadets only is clearly a race thing. It is strange that in the rest of the world there is movement towards racial equality, but not in China. If you want a Hong Kong permanent I.D. card you must be of chinese race. So racial inequality is even official there.

[Hong Xing]

shortly:

Your open letter to Blue Eagle is absolute rubbish. You know nothing about the notorious 516 and you have led Blue Eagle up a false path. If this is the depth of your knowledge then one must wonder about all the rest of what you say especially the part about being involved in CX recruitment. The only thing you have managed to get right is , quote:" " English is the language of aviation" unquote. Blue Eagle and I are not disputing this, we never have, we are debating an entirely different issue which you don't seem to understand. Are you sure you are OK? By the way the web search does not know everything. (Ni de yu yan hen bu li mao!!! Chu Kou Shang Ren. Translated this means : your language is not polite.)

Hong Xing

ronnie 123:
Take it easy my friend, we have lots of time. My input here is only concerned with a request to allow Chinese to be used on Fragrant Harbour as an addition to English. This is no more than is allowed on any other of the foreign forums which run with both the local lanaguage and English. However the Pprune commissars have said No and there the matter rests. I trust this clears things for you.
Regards,

Hong Xing

Flap 5:
What we are debating here has nothing whatsoever to do with the spoken word . Whether it be Cantonese , Hakka, Hokkien, Mandarin or any other dialect it does not matter. We are talking of the written character which is universal to all Chinese people.
Regards,

Hong Xing

[FlexibleResponse]

shortly said:Being involved in CX aircrew employment I confirm that localisation is an agenda for at least CX.

...currently recruiting for FO and SO spots as hard as we can interview. If we put all the applicants in a room and gassed them we would not hurt a single Chinese person.

Gas their pilot applicants? Would this be rather revealing insight into someone who claims to be associated with CX management of human resources?

[christep]

Flap 5 wrote:

"If you want a Hong Kong permanent I.D. card you must be of chinese race"

That's rubbish. Anyone who lives legally in HK for 7 years (except on a Domestic Helper visa) can apply (and nearly always get) a Permanent ID card.

To get a HK Passport you need to take Chinese citizenship. There used to be a racial criterion for this, but this has been relaxed over the last few years. There are now quite a few HK citizens who are not ethnically Chinese - most are ethnically Indian, but there are a few ethic Europeans, including Mike Rowse, head of InvestHK.

[mrben]

There are two types of Permanent ID Card.

I'm still unsure as to what the chinese race one gives you over the other one. Or maybe it is just to differentiate us chinese over other races :bored:

[Flap 5]

Christep,

I was resident in Hong Kong for 10 years. I was given a 'Hong Kong Identity Card'. It was not a 'Permanent Identity Card' as that is ONLY given to persons of Chinese race. I was told this by an official when I got my I.D. card, so I am not just shooting my mouth off - which you appear to be doing.

mrben,

The Permanent I.D. card means that you have the right of abode in Hong Kong and if you were to comit a deportable crime you would not be deported out of Hong Kong, which you would be with the I.D. card aquired after 7 years of residence. You also can vote in 'local elections' (for what they are worth) with a Permanent I.D. card, but not with the 'Hong Kong Identity Card'. I was not able to vote in the local elections (in 1997?), despite being strongly canvassed at the time.

[HotDog]

Flap5, I was a resident of Hong Kong for 33 years. They do issue Permanent ID cards to non Chinese residents if you can prove residency for more than 7 years.

[1] Schedule 1 to the Immigration Ordinance (Cap. 115) states that:



2. Permanent resident of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region



A person who is within one of the following categories is a permanent resident of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region-

(a) A Chinese citizen born in Hong Kong before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. (Replaced L.N. 192 of 1999. Amended L.N. 84 of 2002)

(b) A Chinese citizen who has ordinarily resided in Hong Kong for a continuous period of not less than 7 years before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

(c) A person of Chinese nationality born outside Hong Kong before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to a parent who, at the time of birth of that person, was a Chinese citizen falling within category (a) or (b). (Replaced L.N. 192 of 1999)

(d) A person not of Chinese nationality who has entered Hong Kong with a valid travel document, has ordinarily resided in Hong Kong for a continuous period of not less than 7 years and has taken Hong Kong as his place of permanent residence before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

(e) A person under 21 years of age born in Hong Kong to a parent who is a permanent resident of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region in category (d) before or after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region if at the time of his birth or at any later time before he attains 21 years of age, one of his parents has the right of abode in Hong Kong.

(f) A person other than those residents in categories (a) to (e), who, before the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, had the right of abode in Hong Kong only.

[squire]

Well I don't really want a part of this but I will support Hong Xing in his desire to have the right to use mandarin in a Chinese PPRune Forum. Why not? They have Nordic etc even if its in Pinyin instead of traditional characters where's the harm?:confused:

[katana]

Of course persons of non-Chinese race can hold a permanent HK Identity Card - providing the 7 year residency criteria is met. It entitles you to vote, and indeed all the accompanying rights of citizenship. The only difference between this and taking citizenship in other counties is that it can be lost; for example if you remain outside of HK for more than three years, or cash in your MPF fund before retirement.

"saam lap sing", or three stars that appear after the immigration codes on the card denote Chinese race.

[BlueEagle]

If you would care to read this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=99856) thread then you will see that this has all been discussed and dealt with already.

regards, BE.

[mrben]

Please do not allow chinese to be spoken in fragrant harbour. I am from Hong Kong, can't speak chinese, and fragrant harbour is the only section I visit regularly.

[Hong Xing]

Blue Eagle:
In light of what has preceded this would you be prepared to consider allowing Chinese to be used on Fragrant Harbour after the Pprune administrators issue a public disclaimer to the effect that they (the administrators) are not responsible for any defamatory or similar statements and that Chinese is being permited without a moderator?

I am a pilot not a lawyer and I don't understand legal speak but surely there is some way of implementing something along these lines.
Regards (wen hou)

Hong Xing

[christep]

To show who is right and who is wrong in this debate here are links to relevant pages of the HK Immigration Department website:

Symbols on the old ID card
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/topical_3_2.htm

Symbols on the new Smart ID cards
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/hkid_frontinfo.htm

"Who can enjoy the Right of Abode in HK"
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/topical_3_4.htm

This defines "Eligibility for a HK Re-entry permit" which is the criterion for having *** on the ID card.
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/hktraveldoc_2_rp.htm

This defines the criteria which will be taken into account when considering an application for Chinese nationality (a criterion for a Re-entry permit) by naturalization:
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/chnnationality_4_1.htm

There is no race-based criterion.

[HotDog]

I think Flap5 owes you an apology.:(

[Hong Xing]

Blue Eagle:

Thank you for the private message. We progress.

Regards (Wen Hou)

Hong Xing

[Flap 5]

Thank you for your childish prompt Hotdog. From your previous post I can see where the misunderstanding has arisen. A person with a foreign passport can not have a permanent I.D. card even after 7 years. Obviously the immigration official who spoke to me was mistaken. I (and any expat) can not have a permanent I.D. card, and can not vote. I assume therefore from your post that you had a permanent I.D. card?

[HotDog]

You've still got it wrong Flap.

d. A person not of Chinese nationality who has entered Hong Kong with a valid travel document, has ordinarily resided in Hong Kong for a continuous period of not less than seven years and has taken Hong Kong as his place of permanent residence before or after the establishment of the HKSAR.

As for my "childish prompt":

I am not just shooting my mouth off - which you appear to be doing.

Have a nice day.

[jtr]

Flaps, might I suggest you

a)Check what you are on about perchance you may have the wrong story

or

b)Shut up before you make a fool of yourself, and let Hong carry on admirably

or

c) All the above

[squire]

Sorry the link to tell me why no Chinese may be spoken didn't work for me can anyone tell me the reason briefly?

[BlueEagle]

My fault, I merged the two threads concerned which is why the link failed. If you now go to the beginning of this thread you will have the complete picture.

regards,

BE

[squire]

OK I see what you mean in that it may be a little difficult unless you employ a Chinese moderator, but Hong has a point in that while different people speak different dialects there is just one written language. Interestingly it was the old emperors who developed this system as a means of controlling the people as I understand it. However I digress it still seems that there would be quite large numbers of aviators in the domestic markets of Mainland China/Taiwan to whom this would be useful.

[Hong Xing]

squire:

Your interpretation of the development of written Chinese is interesting but I am afraid I can't entirely agree. I have always thought that the written language simply developed as the culture evolved and that the writing continued to develop until 1958 when Mao Tse Tung decreed that the simplified characters would be used by all. Even now the system is not all that satisfactory as scholars and academics still use the old script and the masses use the new. As an example of this it is well known that the Chinese love caligraphy as an art form , yet it is never written in the new simplified script. Modern caligraphy is written in the running script, cursive script, or standard script and these three scripts have been in use since 4th century AD. It's all very complicated but the system works.
Regards
Hong Xing

[PPRuNe Towers]

Our policy remains as previously stated. It is not under review and the present load on the site is such that we are seeking to reduce the number of forums rather than increase them or their scope.

Regards
rob

[Slapshot]

My daughter was born in Hong Kong in 1999 while I was in the employ of Dragonair.

After her birth I set about getting her papers and travel documents in order. I asked about a Passport or Permanent Identity Card. The person I spoke to laughed at me and said that I must go to my own country.

I told her that she may have misunderstood me. That my Daughter was born in the hospital we were standing in, 3 days previous. To which she replied - "She can not be Chinese, she is white!"

Needless to say I was taken aback and not prepared for this tongue lashing. I suppose that I can be forgiven for expecting another country to extend the same courtesies as my own with regard to citizenship when one is born in the land.

I can just imagine the hue and cry should someone in officialdom say to the Parents of the newly born Chinese in my country - "You can not be Canadian, you are Chinese! You go to your own country"

The Chinese are very "protective" of their background and culture. I am not at all surprised to the extent that someone would want the Chinese language in this forum.

I am however, surprised that one would wish to use this forum, primarliy English, to promulgate one's view's and feeling's ,in the Chinese Language, to primarily English reader's...

[Hong Xing]

Slapshot:

It is apparent that you do not realise there are 11 foreign language forums on these boards and they run simultaneously with English. They are listed under the heading " Rest of The World and Non English Forums" and one of them is French. This of course caters nicely to your nationals needs. Am I correct in thinking you speak English on the west side of Canada and French on the east side ?

Hong Xing

[christep]

To Slapshot

The issue of nationality is different from that of "permanent residence". Some countries (USA, Canada?, Australia?) automatically give their nationality to anyone who was born there.

Some others (the UK, Germany, France for example) do not.

As a general rule, and without wishing to initiate a racist slanging match, it seems to me that the countries still run/primarily populated by the "native" race do not automatically give nationality through birth, whereas those run/primarily populated by a relatively recent (say within the last 500 years) immigrant race do.

The person who said "she cannot be Chinese - she is white" was out of touch with the trend in HK (though things have moved on a lot since 1999). There are now many ethnic Indians (who are perhaps fourth generation immigrants) who have HK/Chinese nationality and a few caucasians.

[Flying Bagel]

This is turning out to be quite an interesting and informative thread. How sorry I am to try and ruin it...

[Felix Lighter]

Slightly off the thread but HKG is still waaaaay behind the times when it comes to racial or ethnic equality. The tax laws for filipinos springs to mind.

Similarly, I have some clippings from the SCMP, that I have saved for my future book...that I'll no doubt never get around to doing....one clipping from Nov 2001 reads

Secretary/Personal Assistant
....... must be female, attractive, Chinese and single (girl with boyfriend is often distracted)

and another for a Company exectutive (also 2001) lists as a requirement "Must be a ble to hold 5 shots of hard liquor"

Here it seems you can discriminate based on gender, looks, race and marital status....not to mention drinking prowess! (Just because its not 'legal' doesnt mean there is not one rule of us and one rule for others)

Now.....on the comical side, is the old sign at CLK (the airport) that said "NO SMOKING NAKED", of course it meant "NO NAKED FLAMES"

:ok:

[Flying Bagel]

"Must be able to hold 5 shots of hard liquor."

Tsk. That's not discrimination, that's an aptitude test. Chinese businessmen buy XO not in millilitres, but in Litres. :}

[Slapshot]

Hong Xing -

Am I correct in thinking you speak English on the west side of Canada and French on the east side ?

On the East Coast of Canada is the Province of Newfoundland, which speaks a delightful local dialect of English. I believe you are referring to the Province of Quebec which is not Officially Bi-lingual. French is the official language. The only officially bi-lingual province in Canada is New Brunswick.

[shortly]

I assume that was meant as a self descriptive metaphor Mr Xing. Hong Kong is a wonderfully cosmopolitan society where only the few red necks like yourself mar the scene. Sure there are some interesting legislative snippets which could be construed as racist, but for me I love it here and Hong Kong is slowly catching up on equality status everywhere. Need to be able to hold 5 shots of liquor - if it comes with the job where do I apply.

[Sorry Shortly, I have broken the sequence, the post to which you refer is now the one below! regards, BE]

[BlueEagle]

I have split your post off and placed it in the Administration forum as it was addressed to them.

Hong Xing wrote:

posted 5th November 2003 13:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To:
PPRuNe Towers Adminstrators

If there is one thing I have learned from my request to allow Chinese to be used on Fragrant Harbour it is a better understanding of why the French so vigourously protect their language.
As I am not privy to the collective thinking of your decision making may I offer you one final morsel to dwell on. It is a Chinese metaphor that has been around for a thousand years and it goes like this: GUO ZU BU QIAN . This translates as " binding your feet to prevent your own progress " or " non-advancement due to self imposed restraint. "

Hong Xing

[squire]

So the main reason for not having a Chinese forum is that you are too busy, wow.:ok:

[BlueEagle]

No Squire, that is not what has been said,

"Our policy remains as previously stated. It is not under review and the present load on the site is such that we are seeking to reduce the number of forums rather than increase them or their scope."

Amongst other things the problem is server load and bandwith utilisation.

The other reasons have already been given.

[squire]

OK well without trying to be a smart a*se would not including all the Chinese speaking aviators be of more value than say the "Agony Aunt " forum etc. There are huge numbers of flights in China every day therefore professionals who are not included.
Personally I enjoy PPrune very much as is but it seems reasonable to consider it anyway. Surely the site can grow thats the goal of any business and perhaps its not generating enough revenue but hopefully it does OK. Anyway good luck and maybe it can be at least considered?

[Hong Xing]

Squire:
The excuses offered up by the administrators lack credibility to the extent they border on being pathetic. What is one to make of a spokesman who assumes a position of authority and at the same time refers to himself as responsible for toilets and latrines?No doubt you noticed that Blue Eagle who toes the party line has been uncharacteristically reticent since you asked the question about "Agony Aunt" and the relative merit of admitting the Chinese speaking aviators versus the wasting of band width on a foolishness that has nothing to do with real aviation. Perhaps that question is just too hard to answer but I am a little surprised that Blue Eagle has opted to avoid the issue.
The administrators have an opportunity to foster good international fellowship between fraternal aviators yet for some reason they elect to blow it.

Hong Xing

[BlueEagle]

As I said once before, you flatter yourself. If the demand for a Chinese language forum was there then it would be provided but, apart from you making a lot of noise and being aided and abetted by agent provocateurs such as Squire, the demand simply isn't there.

I note that you choose to ignore the other reasons given for not starting a Chinese language forum so let me remind you that one of them was that it would be necessary to ensure that the forum didn't become a battlefield for Chinese from the mainland and those from Taiwan, a significant effort on the part of PPRuNe to "foster good international fellowship between fraternal aviators" don't you think?

Oh yes, Hong Xing, as one who has come to support Communist China and it's works so much, (see your own previous posts), what can you find so wrong in anyone choosing to "toe the Party line"?

Once again Hong Xing, you flatter yourself, the fact that I have not chosen to post earlier is, quite simply, because this issue is a non-issue and does not merit unreasonable amounts of my time.

[Dan Winterland]

One thing you have to remember is that PPRuNe is not a business, it is a service provided by enthusiasts for no or lttle gain. It started in the mid nineties with Danny Fyne (a retired IT expert become pilot) starting a small bulletin board for British pilots to chat to each other. Nearly 8 years on it has turned into the global monster that we know and love.

Last time I spoke to Danny, it hadn't made him any money and I doubt it has since. It does however cause him a lot of grief and worry. There is perpetually some sort of legal action being threatened by someone (from individuals to airlines themselves). He runs PPRuNe as a hobby and I gather he has been on the point of shutting it down more than once.

As the chief moderator of a bulletin board, Danny can be held liable for any libellous or defamatory statements within - this has been precedented in UK law. So therefore he has to be very careful and trusting about who he delegates the moderation of the individual forums to. Although there are some European foreign language forums in PPRuNe, he obviously feels secure enough with the moderators of these forums to allow them to continue. As for an very different language used in a forum for communist country a long way from the UK, I can't blame him if he won't allow the use of Chinese.

If you feel strongly about a Chinese language pilot's bulletin board, why not start one yourself? There are several foreign language PPRuNe copies around, including one in Turkey which is an identical copy. You will of course have to take responsibility for it.



These views are mine and not the moderators.


Must get round to ordering a personal title! :O

[squire]

Hmmm well you may have a point about the Taiwan/China issue but I guess that would be the responsibility of the moderator to control. As to libel last time anyone mentioned taking someone to court they were lampooned by Danny and others, is it really possible to initiate court proceedings for comments issued in an anon internet forum?
Far from stirring the sh*t I think its worth at least discussing the subject Blue Eagle.:ok:

[I agree Squire, but if you go back to page one of this thread you will see that it has been discussed at length already! Cheers, BE]

[ronnie123]

Say if you guys do get your Chinese forum, how many different views will you get.
And how will you get ideas and information from the rest of the aviation world. The reason for this web site is to put aviation professionals in reach of each other. Your Chinese forum will just cut you OFF from the real world even more.

[squire]

Any more than the Nordic forum cuts them off?:confused:

[HotDog]

I think a Chinese forum is a great idea. Not too many people in China, except Hong Xing, still wave the the little red book of Mao Tse Tung!

[Danny]

PPRuNe is not a democracy. Personally, I consder it to be a benevolent dictatorship.

I have been asked to look at this thread and take into consideration the issues being discussed. My understanding is that Hong Xing wants the right to be able to use Chinese in the Fragrant harbour forum or else a seperate forum for Chinese speakers only, a la French or Spanish forums.

Well, after reading the thread and due consideration I have decided that it is not appropriate for PPRuNe to have a separate Chnese language forum at this time and also, it is not appropriate for Chinese to be used in the FH fourm.

My decision if final. The Peoples Comittee for Forum Allocation have not been successful in persuading me, the Great Despot of Aviation Forums, that their case is worthwhile. Therefore, it is decreed that Chinese will not be allowed on PPRuNe. Any dissention will not be tolerated as the harmony and goodwill of the greater PPRuNe community is paramount.

If you are not happy with my decision, do not post your thoughts on here as being 'miserabled' is not much fun. Do not underestimate the powers that make these decisions. A reminder that PPRuNe is not democratic and that there is no such thing as 'free' speech on here may offend you.

Appeals to other mods after my decree will be considered to be subversion and will be dealt with harshly. There is no judicial review process here and any attempts at destabilisation will be crushed.

In the words of the old PPRuNe proverb: Too many forums is worth three on the internet and will spoil your enjoyment of the heat in the kitchen. :bored:

Of course, a financial contribution of sufficient magnitude, and I don't use the word 'magnitude' lightly, may be taken into consideration. I hear that the PRC can be quite generous. Of course it may be cheaper to set up your own website to cater for your needs. I would of course be more than willing to sell you some advertising space to promote your website.

[Marge]

Hello my dears !

well we finally got the roof nailed back on here in bermuda after the storm last month. The phone line has also been re-attached, so the "bat phone" is back in operation.
having rattled the cage and woken the sleeping dragon, I was concerned that some of you feel that the agony aunt forum should make way for another language forum. I am quite frankly shocked that you have so little concern for the long suffering readers of my forum. You may well feel that peoples problems may be little and insignificant, but with the help of my readers we are able to inflate them to a much greater significance.

If your chinese language forum launches in the near future I trust you will also make room for an agony aunt forum. In the meantime my door is always open. Actually it has to be we ran out of nails fixing the roof.

xx

Marge

[Hong Xing]

Captain Pprune:

I have always known that prune is a dictationship and I have no truck with that as I subscribe to the theory that someone must be in command whether he be the Chairman of the Congress or the humble airline Captain. However that does not stop a party member from offering up something that he thinks is worthwhile and then arguing his case. You say the decision is final and I must accept that but I don't accept your " Old Prune Proverb " . In fact I can't understand it. To balance the scales here's something from me to you. Let's say it's just a few words of truth from one airline pilot to another. " Many of us travel a lot, see a lot but perceive nothing. "

Hong Xing