Requirements FAA IR

[BrusselsPPL]

Hi all,

As a JAR-PPL with about 100 hours under my belt, I'm looking into the possibilities of getting an Instrument Rating. It seems that everyone pretty much agrees that an FAA IR is far more practical than a JAR one, so I guess I'll go for an FAA conversion of my PPL and then go for the IR.

Does anyone know the requirements for getting the FAA Instrument Rating? Do you need to have a minimum amount of PIC time, or a minimum amount total flying time? How many hours of flight training are required to get the rating?

Thanks!

[flyingfemme]

FAR 61.65

§61.65 Instrument rating requirements.

(a) General. A person who applies for an instrument rating must:

(1) Hold at least a current private pilot certificate with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought;

(2) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.

(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;

(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;

(5) Receive and log training on the areas of operation of paragraph (c) of this section from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device that represents an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift appropriate to the instrument rating sought;

(6) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required practical test;

(7) Pass the required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section; however, an applicant is not required to take another knowledge test when that person already holds an instrument rating; and

waffling deleted here......

(d) Aeronautical experience. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have logged the following:

(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument -- airplane rating; and

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include --

(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;

(ii) At least 3 hours of instrument training that is appropriate to the instrument rating sought from an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the date of the test;

(iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of --

(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;

(e) Use of flight simulators or flight training devices. If the instrument training was provided by an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device --

(1) A maximum of 30 hours may be performed in that flight simulator or flight training device if the training was accomplished in accordance with part 142 of this chapter; or

(2) A maximum of 20 hours may be performed in that flight simulator or flight training device if the training was not accomplished in accordance with part 142 of this chapter.

This is a rough guide!

[Evo]

FAR 61.65 covers most of the info, have a look here (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Good that was all the small print; a quick 'translation'

1. You can get a restricted FAA PPL on the basis of your JAR PPL. You will have to go through a few hoops and collect the thing from an FSDO in the States. To that you can then add an IR. (Which you can then convert with some money and heartache into a JAR IR)

2. You can get an FAA PPL (unrestricted) by getting a medical (FAA AMEs in Europe) and do the written (AFT in Norwich) then go and do the flying either stateside (for issues relating to the visa look at the sticky at the top of the private flying page) or over here. FAA examiners over here in Europe can get you ready and signed up. You can do the flight test with AFT in Norwich or Stateside.

If you have any further questions, fire away!

FD

[Julian]

Also worth mentioning that you are required to have complete a certain amount of night flying (I think its about 5 hours).

Mate of mine was caught out and only spotted by the examiner when he was about to go on his check ride. Instructor didnt spot it at the time as he was used to dealing with FAA PPL who undertake night flying as part of the PPL, maybe we should go the same way.

[Aim Far]

Just a point on putting the IR on the converted FAA PPL. I was told that your FAA PPL is subject to the restrictions on the JAA PPL from which it is converted. The JAA PPL is limited to VFR flying so therefore your FAA PPL will always be based on that. Since (in the US at least) the IR is a rating on your licence and not a licence in itself, it will not technically overcome the restriction on your converted licence.

Point is, I ended up doing the FAA PPL flight test and exam so that my IR would be legit. The exam revision was worth doing anyway and the flight test was very relaxed. But it was an extra expense which I wasn't expecting and delayed my hour building trip by a week or so.

I know there are different views on whether this is correct - it might be worth checking with your school so there are no surprises.

[FlyingForFun]

Aim Far - I have never heard of that before! I'm pretty sure, in fact, that it explicitly says in the FARs that you can add any FAA rating - class, type, or instrument - to a license based on a foreign license.

(The only exception to this is the night qualification. This can't be added on, because there is no such FAA rating.)

FFF
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[tacpot]

Be careful when considering whether you have done 50 hours of cross-country flying, as the FAA definition of a cross-country flight is a flight where a landing is made at an airfield that is more than 50nm away from the departure airfield.

[Aim Far]

FFF - like I said, there are different views - I heard that one a couple of times from different places. Doing the test wasn't such a big deal so I didn't argue.

[englishal]

Since (in the US at least) the IR is a rating on your licence and not a licence in itself, it will not technically overcome the restriction on your converted licence.
No, when you pass the IR, your licence is endorsed "Single engine instrument airplane US test passed" [or ME], so the restriction doesn't apply.

Be aware that you must have completed ALL the minimum requirements for the FAA PPL before taking the IR check ride. This includes 3 hrs dual night. Not a big deal, unless the examiner spots it on the day of the IR [which he will], then you loose the test fee, or a portion of it, and can't take the test until you have these required hrs [happened to me].

EA

[Julian]

Good point Tacpot and one which I forgot to mention!

If anyone is worried about not having an FAA PPL but intending to progress then dont worry! Once you take the FAA CPL then that becomes a licence in its own right - you dont need to have previously held a full FAA PPL in order to take the CPL exams and flight test - an ICAO one will do which will allow you to obtain a restricted FAA PPL for the purpose of progressing up the ladder.

As stated before then is nothing to stop you adding IR, Complex, High Performance endorsements, etc to a restricted licence. To get round the night issue then you will have to undergo the JAA Night course and get the signoff which will then lift the night flying restriction on your FAA licence, you wont have to apply for a new FAA licence when you complete the course as it just refers to your JAA licence number.

If you are intending to stay pottering about on a PPL then its probably worth getting the full FAA PPL, especially as medical requirements arent as stringent as the JAA PPL (Class III only required).

[Flyin'Dutch']

Julian

I am just sorting this stuff out for my own benefit and was told the same re the restricted PPL being enough to take you to the next step (i.e. the CPL) However I have just this minute been told by those in know (AFT @ Norwich) that this would be incorrect and that you need the full FAA PPL before you can do the CPL.

I will have a look in the FAR AIMs when I have a minute

FD

[BrusselsPPL]

Thanks for all the clarifications, everyone. Extremely helpful! I guess I'll get the JAR night rating first, then get my licence converted into an unrestricted FAA PPL.

This JAR-night flying thing remains a bit bizarre though, especially here in Belgium. Although they have adopted JAA-regulation for some time now, VFR night flying in this country was simply forbidden until a couple of months ago (except in the circuit when in sight of the tower). So until recently it was simply forbidden to do any overland night flying under VFR in this country!

Belgian authorities now lifted this restriction and placed themselves in full compliance with JAA-rules, but for many pilots it still remains quite though to fly overland at night: Belgian insurance companies only allow night flying in fully IFR-certified aircraft, inspite of JAA-rules (which state that you only need some IFR-instruments - like an AI & turn coordinator - not an IFR-certified plane)! Which puts us in the bizarre situation that, even without an IR, you can only fly VFR at night in an IFR-certified airplane.

But that's a discussion that gets us a bit off topic. Again: thanks for all the helpful comments!

[PhilD]

I need some clarification on the night flying issue.

I have a JAR PPL (no night rating), and a restricted FAA licence, and I intend to add a FAA IR to my restricted licence.

From what I understand from these posts so far I need to have 3 hours dual night instruction before I meet the requirements for the FAA IR checkride. I currently have 2 hours dual, so I assume that I can get the other 1 hour during the IR instruction with an FAA instructor.

If I do this I also assume that (as my JAA licence is day only) I will not be able to exercise the priviliges of my FAA licence (in VFR or IFR) at night, until I get a JAA night rating. Is this correct?

[englishal]

If I do this I also assume that (as my JAA licence is day only) I will not be able to exercise the priviliges of my FAA licence (in VFR or IFR) at night, until I get a JAA night rating. Is this correct?
Correct. I'm in the same situation, I have a JAA PPL, no night, but FAA PPL issued on bassis of JAA PPL with FAA IR added on. Now I can legally fly IFR in the US [N reg] but not any sort of night flying. The way I'm getting around this is the way Julian suggests. I'm off to the US next month to take the Commercial, and once I have the commercial I can legally fly at night as night is part of the "course". Not only that though, I can then fly in the UK at night as the CAA recognise the FAA licence / ratings etc in a G reg. So effectively I bypass getting a JAA NQ. In order to do some of the training at night in the US, I have to be signed off as a student, allowing me to fly at Night Solo [but no doubt it'll be on an IFR flight plan:8 ].

I was going to get the JAA NQ before I went over, but what with long days and short nights it hasn't been possible. I have the 3 hrs for the FAA IR, but of course JAA land instructors / examiners won't accept this towards the JAA NQ, even though I have over 10 landings at night and 2 hrs X/C. Must be a different sort of night in Europe :D

A restricted PPL is fine for taking a Commercial, as under the FARs it is to all intents and purposes a FAA PPL. Just restricted. One thing to bear in mind though is that if you got the PPL BEFORE 9/11 and you never had your licence verified by the FAA / CAA thing, you will need to do this before you can take the commercial. I did mine the other day, faxed the FAA and CAA and it took about 3 days. The examiner will want to see the verification before you can take the check ride.

Cyer
EA

[Fuji Abound]

Englishal - are you sure?

I agree the FAA PPL on the back of your JAR PPL without night would not give you night priviliges either on an N reg or G reg. However I thought an IR gives you automatic night priviliges albeit they would only be applicable on an N reg.

[A and C]

Dont forget that flying skill is required for the FAA IR !.

I found the FAA IR flight test much harder than the CAA IR due to the fact that you did not know what was going to be asked of you next !.

The FAA may have a system in place that encourages you to go out and get an IR but dont mistake this for an easy option , all they have done to help you is remove all the CAA ********* and a lot of the expence , the practical flying skill level required is high and the required ability to think in the air is far higher that required on the very ridged CAA IR flight test.

[englishal]

However I thought an IR gives you automatic night priviliges albeit they would only be applicable on an N reg
I'm not 100%, it may be that becasue I have US Test Passed for the instrument airplane, and have the 3 hrs night that I can actually fly at night. Worst case I'll have to become a student again and get signed off for solo night flight :D I'm trying to avoid doing the FAA PPL check ride first, which will give me night privileges, but will add an extra $150 + plane rental to my bill.

that you did not know what was going to be asked of you next !.
Yea, when the examiner asked me to fly a 5 DME arc around a VOR....10 is pretty easy, but 5, phew. Still I made it and he was happy, so I was happy :D

Cheers
EA

[Megaton]

Your FAA PPL is based upon your JAR PPL so if you have limitations or restrictions ie no night then that applies to your FAA PPL even if you have an FAA IR. I do speak from experience in this. I had a CAA PPL without night. Passed the FAA IR which included some dual night but since this was not specifically night instruction I still had to do the night flying element on the JAR CPL.

[Charlie Zulu]

Flyin'Dutch'

I returned from the USA a couple of weeks ago after going through the process of obtaining an FAA CPL/IR.

Before going I had a CAA PPL and a restricted FAA PPL based upon the validity of the CAA PPL. As the FAA certificate was issued in 1999 I had to obtain a letter of authenticity from the FAA so the Examiner knew my CAA PPL was valid.

Firstly I went through the FAA IR course, written test and flight test. Once passed the examiner gave me an FAA PPL that was still restricted (based on my CAA PPL) but also had Instrument Airplane (US Test Passed) written upon it.

I then used that FAA PPL/IR (still restricted in terms of validity) to obtain a full unrestricted FAA CPL/IR.

You do NOT need a full unrestricted FAA PPL before going for the FAA CPL Written and Flight Tests. However you will need your FAA restricted certificate based on your CAA/JAA licence and if it was issued before the new verification rules then you will need a letter of verification.

Good luck with the FAA CPL/IR.

Best wishes,

Richard.

[IO540]

A and C

This is interesting to read ... nearly every JAA IR I have spoken to thinks his JAA IR is superior to the FAA one, and the JAA IR flight test is much harder.

Oh well....

Not many people have done both.

[Julian]

IO540, its one of those arguments destined to run and run. Mines bigger than yours, etc, etc :}

EA, thanks for the heads up, I am thinking of doing same and didnt realised as mine pre 911 I would have to get it validated,

[englishal]

The FAA part is free, the CAA part is £15, payable by all major credit cards [what b@llocks]

Cyer
EA

[Flyin'Dutch']

I think that you have to get the CAA licence validated whether or not your restricted FAA PPL was issued before or after 9/11. Mine was issued after 9/11 but I have not been able to see that validation would not be necessary.

Anyway think that I may as well go the full hog as I want to do the test over at Norwich to limit the time away from the family.

CZ, thanks for the advice.

FD

[A and C]

Its the bull that makes the CAA/JAA system so hard to do NOT the standard of PRACTICAL flying.

The FAA want to see that you can fly the aircraft safely in the real world and it is at that they aim the flying test.

The ground exams also are aimed at the real world and not to see if you know some deep theory that some long retired ex RAF navigator thinks that you should know.

Having done the CAA and FAA flight engineer exams I could say much the same about that licence as well.

[IO540]

Well I'll be doing my FAA PPL/IR within the next 6 months (and moving the plane to N-reg...), all in the UK, so I will duly report my findings :O

Somewhere I found that up to 25hrs of one's instrument training time is allowed towards the FAA IR provided each flight is signed off by a CFI... so I duly went and got the CFIs I flew with to sign it all off. Now I can't find that requirement!

[Flyin'Dutch']

IO540,

That is because there is no such requirement!

Best guide is the FAR/AIM which can be looked up here (http://www.air-compliance.com/far-aim.html) .

But it is fair to say that there is still some room for individual's interpretation!

FD

[Keef]

Apart from the bureaucracy (the visa and validation stuff), the FAA IR is purely a test of flying skill and knowledge. It's a tough test, too. But if an unworldly duffer like me can pass it, any decent pilot can - and that's the point!

I looked at the JAA IR syllabus, and decided that if I were going to spend that much time in a classroom (at my age!) it was going to be for something more mission-critical than a JAA IR. Much easier to move the aircraft to the N reg.