Aircraft - buying my first one.. [Archive]

Chimbu chuckles

11th Aug 2003, 17:27

TFR...

Just buy a Bonanza...why bother with lesser machines like Pipers:yuk: .

Seriously though, before plonking down a serious wad of cash make damn sure you are buying the aircraft you really want to own.

With respect you have yet to experience enough aircraft types to know what you want. Better to get your PPL and then go out and get checked in a variety of aircraft and do some trips in hired examples before deciding which type you like enough to buy an example.

I think you will find yourself bored by the lack of performance that Pipers offer after a year or so and aircaft, like boats, are the easiest thing to buy and the hardest thing to sell...which is why you should buy the one you REALLY want first up!!

My 1970 Bonanza A36 (http://www.fototime.com/{F5C7F7BB-465C-4031-8C61-E4359A217A28}/picture.JPG)

Plenty of doors (http://www.fototime.com/{7D76632A-B773-4943-B94D-D9C6C7C90F81}/picture.JPG)

A mate's 1954 C180 (http://www.fototime.com/{603284DC-4A0A-4932-A9BC-F1509C08ED79}/picture.JPG)

Another mate's 1974 Aztec (http://www.fototime.com/{3D9D0175-ADF7-437C-B0B4-1BB8EB76E807}/picture.JPG)

You have the budget...take your time and look beyond what you are currently learning to fly in...there's a big world out there...did you marry the first girl you ever slept with:p

Chuck.

Hairyplane

11th Aug 2003, 18:03

Have you considered a Robin DR400?

Check out the numbers, fly one, fall in love with it.

In terms of speed, load, strip performance and sheer delight (the passengers looooove the incredible visibility) it knocks your average spammer into a cocked hat.

If you are lucky enough to find a '95 ish 180 Regent with low hours, rip the vendors arm off.

When it comes to selling it - it will literally fly away for top dollar.

Alternatively, you aren't far off the price of a new Regent.

Finance is cheep these days.

Not sure of the exact prices these days but expect to pay around £125k plus the VAT for a brand new top-spec'd machine (twin 430's, autopilot - the lot).

EMail me if you want an owners persective. Alternatively, my machine was featured in July 01 Todays Pilot, shortly after it was delivered from the factory.

Now that was a good day!

HP

The Phoenix Rises

11th Aug 2003, 19:02

Hi everyone:

I appreciate the replies - thanks.

Hi Bodie:

Well this seems petty, but I just can't get past the 1 door thing. It fails on inaccessibility even though the rest of the aircraft is excellent. It's things like this that you need to consider - my next share will be a C182.

Makes perfect sense to me, it's hardly petty... Are the operating costs difference between the 6 and 4 seater very great?

Hi A and C:

Ok, for sure.

Hi Whirlybird:

Agreed.

Hi englishal:

Is that a 4 or 6 seater?

Hi Chimbu chuckles:

LOL!!

And nice pics. I do have a time problem and need to get one asap after my license for the commuting bit... but of course what you say makes good sense. Is your Bonanza a 4 or 6 seater?

Hi Hairyplane:

Is the Robin a 2-seater? I need at least 4... I will email you...

How can I find out what plane seats what and a few specs on each... There is, I presume, some mag or book that lists all these and similar other types of aircraft, can someone advise?

Thanks again one and all, I really aprecaite the help and comments.

TP

englishal

11th Aug 2003, 19:31

TB20 is a 4 seater....a true 4 seater though, 250HP engine and very nice to fly. Did Oxford to Edinburgh in 2hrs 20 mins a few weeks ago, got 174Kts GS out of it.

You can get some very nice Cherokee 6's for £80,000 in excellent condition, though I think if it was me, I'd go for either a "true" high power 4 seater, with retractable gear or a twin. Trouble is with twins, is that now you costs increase by 75%.

I fly a PA28-236 and it doesn't fly much differently to a Warrior / Archer, exepct its faster, climbs better, can carry 4 adults and full fuel, and has a slightly heavier nose when landing.

I don't own my aircraft, but I've heard it said that a PA28 variant will cost roughly £7000 per year to keep, allowing a fund for engine, insurance, CofA, and routine maintenance / parking etc but obviously not fuel, other consumables or unexpected bills.

Cheers
EA:D

greatorex

11th Aug 2003, 21:04

I agree with Hairyplane entirely. I flew a Robin a few months ago for the first time and WOW!!!!! It handles like a fighter jet, goes like a rocket and is a really well thought out aircraft. It even has two doors ;)

One thing though, and please, no offence is meant: Cross channel commuting in the winter months for a low hour PPL does worry me slightly. Aside from the experience factor, I assume that you will have no instrument rating and so what happens when we get a couple of months of bad weather?

My honest opinion is, as has been said earlier; SLOW DOWN AND TAKE YOUR TIME OVER THIS PURCHASE. Don't let the fanciful idea of being able to 'commute on business', rush you into anything, because the chances are; with the UK winter weather and no IR, you won't be going anywhere possibly for weeks or even months at a time!

Also, as Bodie quite rightly said, there are little things that only start to niggle AFTER you've flown the A/C for a while. It's the same with every a/c; small, medium, large or jumbo ;) you've just got to ask yourself can you live with them?

Anyway, good luck, thanks for a great thread and keep us posted.

Cheers,
G

QDMQDMQDM

11th Aug 2003, 21:05

Having purchased my first aircraft 18 months ago, I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Don't buy 'too much' aircraft for your level of experience. A fast, complex aircraft will get you there quicker, but it will also run you into controlled airspace and bad weather quicker. Make sure you can think faster than any aircraft you buy.

2. The finders fee doesn't look that unreasonable, if you're richer in cash than time, but you would need a pretty rock solid contract to give you some redress in case they found you a dud.

3. The actual process of trying to find an aircraft yourself is highly instructive and teaches you an enormous amount about what is out there, what the common faults are and some of the ins and outs of ownership. If you do have the time and inclination, I would recommend doing it yourself.

QDM

The Phoenix Rises

11th Aug 2003, 21:25

Hi englishal:

I think the twin is out for me, too much cost and too much airplane at the mo. I presume the PA28-236 is not the same as a TB20 (sorry, new to all this still!!) yet you said you flew the TB and fly the PA28... I will have to find the TB20 on the web somewhere...

£7,000 a year to keep, eh? Hmmmm. Better go count my pennies in the piggy bank! So much is coming out of the comments from you folks!

Thanks.

Hi greatorex:

One thing though, and please, no offence is meant: Cross channel commuting in the winter months for a low hour PPL does worry me slightly. Aside from the experience factor, I assume that you will have no instrument rating and so what happens when we get a couple of months of bad weather?

No offence taken. That's a very valid point. Basically, I have to be out of the country for 3 x 1/4's of the year, with those 3 other 1/4's spent in3 other territories. This is starting fairly soon, and hence the idea of France to begin with - fairly easy for a junior PPL like me, once I've got it that is. My plan would be to have the winter months elsewhere, not having to come into the UK for the very reasons you say. I am trying to achieve my objective yet fly well within what will be my fairly inexperienced limit. I do not have to be in the UK at specific dates, usually, so I can pick and choose. It is the best plan I could come up with so far...

I take the point about not going too fast. However, I really have got to do something by October. And going on the train or ferry is gooing to be soooooooo excruciatingly dull!

Is there a x4 seater Robin?

Hi QDMQDMQDM:

3. The actual process of trying to find an aircraft yourself is highly instructive and teaches you an enormous amount about what is out there, what the common faults are and some of the ins and outs of ownership. If you do have the time and inclination, I would recommend doing it yourself.

Oh dear! Yes, you're right, I should do it myself, shouldn't I?!!

Thanks to everyone again... What a great site this is!

I'm thinking, thinking...

TP

greatorex

11th Aug 2003, 21:37

Is there a x4 seater Robin?

Sorry, should have said earlier. Yup, the DR400 is a four seater.

Cheers,

G

Flyboy-F33

11th Aug 2003, 21:53

I'm now on my second plane a Bonanza F33, my first was an early arrow1, There is absolutely no comparison between the two in any way whatsoever.

I would say if you can afford it, buy a complex type. You will soon get bored in an Archer, they are just not fast enough for serious touring. Two friends of mine recenltly purchased a Trinidad and a Tobago respectively (both new). I should say TB200, The guy with the fixed gear is now regretting his expensive mistake as the depreciation will not really allow him to sell it for some years yet. on the other hand, the guy with the Trinidad has now comfortably learned to handle the extra performance and loves it.

As for running costs, you should allow 10% of the purchase price to put things right in the first year or two, thereafter, if you fly around 100 hours per year your budget is going to be in the region of £10 - £15K which include fuel.

I think £3500k finders fee is extortionate. I'll do it for £2k!!

Mail me if you need any more tips.

GG:ok:

Evo

11th Aug 2003, 22:03

I know someone who got his PPL and then went straight from a bog-standard flying school PA-28 to a retractable-gear, wobbly-prop TB-20 without problems. Provided you get some decent complex single training once you've got your PPL it should be fine.

Much more of an issue is greatorex's point about the weather. If you're going to do serious business flying then you really need an IR - might be worth looking for an N-reg rather than G-reg aeroplane, that'll allow you to go for (and use fully) the much more attainable FAA IR once you have the hours. People can and do get a JAR PPL/IR, but it's much more work (and money!) than the American equivalent.

Hairyplane

11th Aug 2003, 22:30

Here are some stats -

Full 4 seater, even with 2 lardasses like me in the front there is still plenty of legroom in the rear.

135kts cruise (book says 140kt) I tend to bimble along at a sedate 125kt/ 2450rpm which returns 38 lit per hour.

635kilos empty weight/ 1100kg gross.

60kg baggage in the rear locker

You therefore have a huge 465kg (nearly half a tonne!) disposable.

Mine has the optional 4th 50 litre tank which does encroach on the baggage volume (it sits on the floor of the baggage locker). However, the 240 litres of fuel I can carry has proved very useful.

With the STEC 30 autopilot and altitude hold and GNS 430 (x2) coupling, its a case of sit back, relax and enjoy.

If you are off touring in it with 2 people - you can pack loads - I mean loads! - in it, neck all 4 tanks and still be well under the MAUW (which I am told can be exceeded by an alarmingly illegal degree).

Mine is due for its first Star Annual (3rd year) in December and I have been quoted £1800.

Why? Because its a simple wooden structure, it has fixed undercarriage and a fixed prop.

Now - before the TB20 etc. afficianado's throw their performance stats into the pot - understand that they aint doing it on 180hp/ fixed prop/ 38 lit ph/ fixed gear. They also aint doing it out of short strips.

THe MAUW (unfactored of course) take off iin the Regent is 320 metres. Think about that for a moment.....!

I have been operating out of a hot, 425m dirt strip (with a few soft sandy patches in it) all weekend without problem. Try that in a TB20 or a Bonanza.

Check out the fuel burns too. On full tanks I can fly(nil reserves/ nil wind) for 6hrs/ 750 miles. Thats without touching the mixture control - something you feel more inclined to do when you are guzzling gas with a 260/ 300hp motor.

If you are seriously thinking about a brand new Robin and want an owners perspective as opposed to listening to a salesman - come and have a chug around the houses in mine.

Stand by to give it a hug (you can hug me too if you'r a girlie) afterwards. You will have found your perfect plane.

I am in the Midlands not far from Coventry.

HP

drauk

11th Aug 2003, 22:59

I've not flown a Robin, but I have been told that you need to keep them in a hangar, due to their construction. If you are planning to travel with the plane alot are you confident that you'll generally have hangar space available?

flyingfemme

12th Aug 2003, 00:05

1. Don't rush into anything. If you haven't got your licence yet the jump to an HP/complex is quite big - especially if you combine it with instrument training. Might be worth buying something smaller/cheaper to build hours/experience and do an IMC. Then move up when you have a better idea of what you need. Maybe lease?

2. No single in your stated price bracket will do year-round commuting/touring in Europe. You need ice protection. The cheapest single-engine option would probably be a Bonanza with TKS (there is one for rent at Fairoaks if you need to look at it).

3. Worth considering an N reg aircraft with an FAA/IR. Less faffing and red tape to keep it up.

4. Consider very carefully your required specification - it's expensive to change aircraft. Think about the number of people to carry and luggage (or not). Consider average leg/endurance, where you are going to go (grass, tarmac) and where it will be parked (under cover?).

5. Insurance - low-time pilots are expensive to insure in something racy!

6. Training - choose an instructor very carefully. get somebody who actually has experience of what you will want to do. Many have very little experience of anything outside the circuit.

7. Good luck! Have fun!

Wide-Body

12th Aug 2003, 01:03

Hi Whirlybird

Quote

"Makes perfect sense to me. There's absolutely no way I would buy an aircraft where I had to make sure my passenger got out before I could, in an emergency.""

I would like to think that I would ALWAYS get out with or after the passenger. I guess that it's just my silly duty of care feeling I have as a pilot in command.

Regards

Wide

Chimbu chuckles

12th Aug 2003, 01:19

TFR my Bonanza is a 4+2.

Hairyplane...my 300HP IO550b gives me 3.11 nm/liter in cruise while your getting 3.29nm/liter....I would suggest if you use the mixture for what it's designed for you might get that 6hr/750nm with reserves:D

Let's get real people...SE retractable gear/constant speed prop is only complicated for morons!!!

Chuck.

A and C

12th Aug 2003, 02:23

The Robin DR400 takes a lot of beating when it comes to the speed vs range vs paylaod vs expence.

The fact is that each time I look at changing the Robin for a new aircraft I cant find one that can beat the overall performance of the Robin.

The only thing that the Robin wont take to is being left out in the rain so a hangar in the UK is a must but the paint finnish will last twice as long ( on any aircaft ) when hangerd so its not all bad !.

As for the Beech aircraft I think that this is a step to far in terms of expence for a "first " aircraft .

The last thing that I would remind you of is that " all aircraft bite fools !".

The Phoenix Rises

12th Aug 2003, 14:38

Hi Flyboy-F33:

I'm now on my second plane a Bonanza F33, my first was an early arrow1, There is absolutely no comparison between the two in any way whatsoever.

I would say if you can afford it, buy a complex type. You will soon get bored in an Archer, they are just not fast enough for serious touring. Two friends of mine recenltly purchased a Trinidad and a Tobago respectively (both new). I should say TB200, The guy with the fixed gear is now regretting his expensive mistake as the depreciation will not really allow him to sell it for some years yet. on the other hand, the guy with the Trinidad has now comfortably learned to handle the extra performance and loves it.

As for running costs, you should allow 10% of the purchase price to put things right in the first year or two, thereafter, if you fly around 100 hours per year your budget is going to be in the region of £10 - £15K which include fuel.

I think £3500k finders fee is extortionate. I'll do it for £2k!!

Mail me if you need any more tips.

GG

Thanks, I'll take you up on that. As for the fee - I've taken the advice of folks here and cancelled the offer from the aero club re the £3.5k finders fee. I'll look myself, at least for a while...

TP

Hi evo:

The N-reg planes, does that mean the prices tend to be higher?

As I say, my real plan, when the bad weather sets in, is to be further south for that 1/4 of the year. But, the weather is surely going to be a problem, and so an IR makes sense...

TP

Hi Hairyplane:

First, I am not a girl, so hugs are definitely out!

The stats are impressive. What do I have to pay for a reasonable 2nd/h (or previously owned as our US friends say!) one? I am picking up all the magazines today so will start a search in the classifieds.

Thanks for the offer to try yours, that's really kind and would be great! I don't know about a new one though - price again?

TP

Folks:

What about the safety record for some of these planes? Are there any stats on that? And I would still like to track done a book that compares the various types of aircraft...

Thanks.

TP

Evo

12th Aug 2003, 15:26

The N-reg planes, does that mean the prices tend to be higher?

As I say, my real plan, when the bad weather sets in, is to be further south for that 1/4 of the year. But, the weather is surely going to be a problem, and so an IR makes sense...

I really don't know. There are some advantages and some 'issues' regarding N-reg ownership, so I couldn't guess what effect it would have on price. You can always convert a G-reg to N-reg in the future (I know that Keef is considering doing this, maybe he can advise?).

The real issue here is that if you get an FAA IR you need to be flying a N-reg aeroplane to use the IR to the full (e.g. access to class-A airspace and the ability to fly IFR abroad). Somehow painting a 'G' on the side of your aeroplane turns you from a trained, competent instrument-rated pilot into a dangerous buffoon... :rolleyes: :mad:

Oh, and I agree with Hairyplane, the Robin is an excellent aeroplane. The TB-20 is rather nice too :)

The Phoenix Rises

12th Aug 2003, 15:54

Hi drauk:

I've not flown a Robin, but I have been told that you need to keep them in a hangar, due to their construction. If you are planning to travel with the plane alot are you confident that you'll generally have hangar space available?

Ah. No, I won't. Probably when I'm in the UK; but abroad, no... Hairyplane - got any comments on that?

TP

Hi flyingfemme:

Thanks a lot for the comments. No, I am not going to rush into anything.

How much is insurance going to be for someone like me?! I have the name of a leasing company and I was going to talk to them today...

TP

Hi A and C:

The Robin DR400 takes a lot of beating when it comes to the speed vs range vs paylaod vs expence.

The fact is that each time I look at changing the Robin for a new aircraft I cant find one that can beat the overall performance of the Robin.

The only thing that the Robin wont take to is being left out in the rain so a hangar in the UK is a must but the paint finnish will last twice as long ( on any aircaft ) when hangerd so its not all bad !.

As for the Beech aircraft I think that this is a step to far in terms of expence for a "first " aircraft .

The last thing that I would remind you of is that " all aircraft bite fools !".

I'm not sure I can hangar it in Europe...

I have no intention of being bitten...(!) If I can help it, that is. The good advice I am getting here ought to help me a lot in that regards...

TP

Hairyplane

12th Aug 2003, 16:38

For a start - it is sensible to hangar any aircraft - wooden or otherwise.

You'd certainly want to garage a £125k car wouldn't you!

I have a full set of Cambrai touring covers. They take up very little room in the aircraft - they come in ther own custom-made bags.

I also reckon that you should protect any aircraft from UV as well the rain.

My paint still looks like brand new.

I cover it inside the hangar too!

I tour extensively and can often blag my way into a hangar. Even if I do - the covers still go on inside - keeps the birs crxp and dust off.

I used to instruct on Robins. They were rarely hangared. I bumped into one of my old steeds a whle back - now with 25000 hours on it and looking gooood!

The Robin is made of Oregon Pine and plywood, covered in Dacron.

Easy to inspect, easy to repair - the airframe spares grown in the ground.

DR400 - 10 million flying hours and going strong.

Easiest aircraft you will ever fly - 22kt crosswind (max demondstrated - will cope with a lot more) - excellent brakes, ground handling etc. etc.

HP

The Phoenix Rises

12th Aug 2003, 16:52

Hi Hairyplane:

LOL! Well yes I would hangar a £125k car; but if I am in Europe or elsewhere what I mean is that, at the moment, I am not certain I will be able to hanger the plane. I had not factored that into my thinking, planning or costing...

So... from what you write... I guess - well, it's difficult for me to draw this conclusion really, but - I guess you like Robin's then...??!!

Thanks again HP.

TP

Flyboy-F33

12th Aug 2003, 17:25

Looks like we have a lot of Robin fans here....!

Two of my personal friends are airplane Mechanics, one's has as AI rating, the other, who incidently looks after my Bonanza, a senior guy with 'The Worlds Favourite Airline'. Both have advised me of serious corrosion problems with Socata models (TB20 etc)
They also tell me of the problems they regularly have with Robins.
ManY parts on Robins are fiercely over complicated (read, very expensive) like brake discs for instance. You would expect to able to use standard cleveland or similar, but NO, you have to use a specific Robin part which is 5 times the price. However, that pails into insignificance if the company goes into liquidation, which they temporarily did a few months ago. I know of one individual whos Robin was in for its annual for more than three months because they just couldnt get any spares.

Further more, any aircraft that has to be hangered is a no-no for me. Have you tried getting hanger space in Surrey or Hampshire, and then theres the hanger rash etc.

Sorry you Robin fans out there, but the only thing your Robin does better than my F33A is that it burns less fuel. But if I power back to 45% I can still do 130 kts at 9 USG/Hr.

GG
:ok:

A and C

12th Aug 2003, 18:41

To those of you who think that a you might have a problem with corrosion with the Robin all I have to say is "Beech spar cap AD"

If you are a Beech owner and have not seen the problem then just hope that you never do because it will cost you big bucks !.

The fact of the matter is that the DR400 will move 4 peple out of small strips at about two thirds the speed of a BE33 and at one third the cost.

I,v never had my aircraft on the ground because I cant get parts and as for the prices , Yes there are some horrror storys with Robin parts BUT there are some items that are cheap , I dont think that the parts on average are any more expencive that the normal american prices , now go check the prices of Beech items with the same sort of things on a Cessna or Piper.

Also look at the time life items like landing gear and flap gearboxes ,fuel pumps etc.

I,m not saying that the Beech is a bad aircraft , far from it I,m a big fan of the Barron but it is a lot of aircraft to haul around the sky and the fact is that as a first aircraft to own it is a big step , you can take that from someone who at the moment owns three aircraft.

As for not puting the aircraft in the hangar you are not saving any money by the time you have paid for new paint twice as often and to have the corosion fixed ( that is without the spar caps replaced ) the extra radio work due to the water that gets in and the inside trim is replaced due to damage from water leaks then you will see that a hagarage is not so expencive after all.

Flyboy-F33

12th Aug 2003, 18:58

A & C

I suggest you read the post before responding! My comment about corrosion was aimed at Socata aircraft not Robin. Are you going to deny that Socatas are prone to corrosion?

Sure I know about the Beech spar cap AD, my plane was a victim of it (at previous owners cost). And yes, Beech parts are mighty expensive but often the parts you need are things that can be sourced from other suppliers as you obviously know.

I am not suggesting that he buys a Beech as a first airplane, merely to go for a complex type if he can afford it.

On a final note, An F33A can easily get in and out of 450M grass strips (I.ve done it many times) But it will cruise at 170Kts if you want it to, it has 1100lbs of load capacity and it can be left outside. In terms of SEP's, there is nothing to beat it. (yes I know I am biased)

As an afterthought. a Vans RV7 would be a good alternative if you have a spare 1500 hours and a nice workshop.

GG:=

The Phoenix Rises

14th Aug 2003, 13:58

Hi Folks:

Very interesting discussion!

So, to summarise, the recommendations for a 4-seater from you folks are:

Robin DR400
Bonanza F33
TB20

with an N-reg if poss, get an IR, and Go Slowly!

I have started my search, and will try to fly each of these over the next couple of months. I have my head burried in the Trevor Thom books at the moment and can't come up for air as much as I would like, but will get out as soon as poss!

Can I open the discussion up on another subject? What about if I was to go for a 6-seater? Does anyone have any comments on that idea - not only as to the type of aircraft, but the difference in performance and costs over the 4-seater types recommended above?

It's just an idea; I think I will probably end up with a 4-seater as a first plane, but wanted to pick your brains again anyway, if I may...!

Thanks again!

TP

flyingfemme

14th Aug 2003, 15:23

Ok Phoenix - the nice people here have been giving you a view of what they like. If you are going to spend a big stack of your own money you need some slightly less personal advice.

First of all write a specification - list exactly what you want to do with the beast. How many people do you want to carry? Will they have more luggage than an overnite bag? How far do you want to go? If you go to the south of france regularly will it irritate you to do it in two hops all the time? How resilient is your bladder? Where will you be keeping/maintaining it? Will the expertise be available?

There are plenty more options in the four seater stakes that make good practical and financial sense. Nobody mentioned Cessnas - underrated and good value. What about a 177RG? Comfy, wide cabin, two doors and much more aircraft for your money than a Beech. If you have insurance issues (being low time) then a 182 may be a better option; fixed gear may lower your premiums a little.

If you are a real long-distance traveller then consider a Comanche. You can get 9 hours of fuel in a 250/260 with long-range and tip tanks. Yes, they are a little elderly but the owners club have great advice and support, you can get plenty of speed mods, many have great avionics and autopilots and they have more room than a jumbo in the back. They fly great too.

Six seaters are generally 4+2 and you trade fuel for seat capacity. Only small people need sit right in the back. Having said that you can tour with four people and lots of baggage. An A36 Bonanza will probably be out of your price range but a Cessna 210 can be great value and you might even be lucky enough to get one with boots.

So, first get your licence and then specify very carefully.

Julian

14th Aug 2003, 20:45

6 Seater I would go for a Cherokee Six.
Also would go for fixed gear as the retracts dont add that much to performance - sure they look nice but will add to your maintenance bills!

The Phoenix Rises

17th Aug 2003, 16:57

Hi flyingfemme:
Thanks for the very practical advice.

Part of the problem is that I have a very fluid situation, as they say. I am not able to be as specific as I would like at the moment, and of course the costs and performance of the various types of aircraft are going to impact on my thinking anyway. Which was one of the reasons why I put up the posting in the first place and why all of the responses here have been so helpful! I had a look at the Comanche btw, haven’t found a cost yet…

Hi Julian:
Thanks - I am thinking again about going straight to a 6-seater… I might do better in a 4-s to begin with.

TP

IO540

18th Aug 2003, 16:03

The Phoenix Rises

I fly a TB 20, and can offer the following comments/views relative to your £100k budget, not in any particular order of importance:

What is your objective? For VFR flight you could get something very good but slightly more basic in terms of avionics, leaving you more money to keep it running. Say a TB10 in good nick – hard to beat and way better than any PA28 etc. But for going places seriously you need IFR capability, decent avionics, and that makes £100k about the minimum level and this concerns me a bit because while you can get major-cost suprises at any level, they get bigger when you play with this sort of thing and the plane is out of warranty!

Will it be on a Public CofA or Private CofA, or N-reg? N-reg is probably the only realistic way if you want an IR (you go the FAA PPL/IR route). This affects the maintenance costs. What about VAT issues? Some planes are sold "plus VAT" others "VAT paid". Personal or ltd co. ownership? Mostly business travel perhaps?

The TB20 is a great plane. Fast, stable, high wing loading gives you a good ride in turbulence, barely matched load and range. The manufacturer is still in business and that's pretty rare. A great plane for going places, arguably unmatched until you get to the new technology e.g. DA40 at £150k+ or a Cirrus at a lot more.

I would avoid a 6-seater unless really necessary; there are few options about, most are either old or above your price range.

Every type of plane has a long list of problems; that's the nature of this game. Some individual specimens are worse than others, sometimes due to luck but more often due to poor treatment, but this is “Vauxhall Viva reliability” territory. I investigated this at great length, speaking to service shops etc. You should do the same. Make a list of candidate planes and ask for their views. Make sure that the plane you get can be serviced locally.

Be careful asking flying instructors. Sadly, most of them know very little about "decent" planes, having never flown one, and in any case they want you to self fly hire their stuff. I could tell you some quite appalling stories. Try to speak to experienced IR pilots who fly classy planes on business - a very different perspective. Looking back, the biggest problem I found when looking at your price level or above is that due to the mostly decrepit planes operated by most schools/clubs and the very limited experience of most instructors very few people know anything useful, and nearly all the advice I got for the "locals" was in retrospect a load of tosh. No use asking someone owning a 2CV about which Merc to buy. Ask further afield.

What will you get for the £3500? It seems a lot for an annual-equivalent inspection plus some basic paperwork. You can "find" yourself a plane easily enough; just read the various adverts around the place, do some web searches, and contact a few dealers (most new plane dealers also do used planes).

Don't let anyone tell you that a faster plane will get you into trouble faster. Some instructors offered similar patronising comments to me (having realised that I won't be self fly hiring their decrepit £120/hr offerings from their school much longer), and it is nonsense. That sort of plane will have a working autopilot, and an AP, together with better avionics e.g. a slaved HSI, reduces your cockpit workload drastically. Even without an AP I have a much lower workload now that in any C150, C152, PA38, PA28 I ever flew, with 120hrs in those. Especially in IMC. If your navigation and situational awareness are so c**p that you routinely bust CAS then 150kt is no diff to 90kt. The sort of plane you are looking at isn't flown with a compass and a stopwatch like the C150 in the PPL skills test; you have a GPS, radio nav (VOR/DME/ADF), and you don't fly along railways and wondering if such-and-such nondescript bunch of houses is one or another village. You can of course just potter around on nice days but for most flights it’s just extra work with much more scope for getting lost, so why bother? You fly it as if it was IFR.

Unlike with cars there is no obvious price level at which to get into this business because at every price you get something different.

For £100k you can get a TB20 but about 10-15 yrs old and you have to be very careful with the avionics, whose list price new is about £50k-£80k! Make sure it all works and look at service history (you may need to visit shops who serviced it years before as they like to retain the records; the owner/seller is most unlikely to have the complete service record with details of all work done no matter how small). Same applies to any £100k plane which is say £200k new.

Obviously get a full inspection done, this will cost you about £700+, by a licensed engineer of YOUR choice. Get a cylinder bore check done. I know of a plane being advertised (for a long time now, you may have seen it) which has major hidden problems.

Make sure you always have spare money for unexpected work, say £10-20k. This is true equally for a £30k PA28 but the latter won't have the avionics to go wrong.

At 140kt+, retractable gear is worth about 25% extra horsepower, or 25% less fuel, which is a lot. Hard to see in reality because there are few if any identical planes available with/without, for a direct comparison. In general you try to avoid operating any plane, esp. a retractable, from mucky grass strips esp. in freezing conditions. You can but the end result will be more maintenance in the long run. But a TB20 has a trailing link u/c which is great.

Re a TB plane, look at www.socata.org for much more info.

There are other costs, e.g. £500 for a 50hr check, £1500 for a 150hr check, £2000 for the annual, £300/mo for hangarage. All plus VAT but typical inclusive of parts. You have to allow for engine fund, prop fund and other stuff. Oh and fuel also…

It cannot be done on a shoestring, but the huge upside is that you have a great plane to fly, fast, 100% availability, maintained to YOUR standard, with a marginal (direct hourly) cost no bigger than a self fly hire C150. Great for doing a lot of flying and getting really current.

I never regret owning but this is not a game for someone who is skint!

Of course there are options for reducing the cost e.g. renting it to carefully chosen people, or setting up a group around it. All with the usual caveats...

A lot of these issues get covered, with varying degrees of accuracy, in the usual magazines, but mostly from the low end and not at the level you are looking at.

RodgerF

18th Aug 2003, 19:06

'Try to speak to experienced IR pilots who fly classy planes on business - a very different perspective.'

Another source of info where you can look is www.pplir.org. A lot of serious private IFR pilots are members, and there is a forum open to members on this site.

The Phoenix Rises

21st Aug 2003, 07:58

Hi IO540:

What a really great reply, thanks so much. I've just seen it, and as it's rather later and there is a fair amount to digest and consider, I will respond tomorrow.

Thanks again. Just great.

TP

The Phoenix Rises

22nd Aug 2003, 06:54

Hi IO540:

First with regard to the price, I have set the level at £100k because I think that is a reasonable entry into this game especially when I will have just got my licence. Whatever I get, it will have to be within that level. Annual maintenance/flying costs can come on top of course.

I guess ideally it means an N-reg because I will be going for the IR; but I do not know how quickly this can be achieved after a PPL. I am still considering the concept of going in to buying a plane at a lower level, and upgrading later. That I still so not know about yet. I can only imagine that the costs of buying one and then changing later will mean a loss.

It can be either personal purchase, or I can put it through Company Books to take care of the VAT. This I presume is not such a good idea if I am going buy one and upgrade later because of the +VAT element. But I can be flexible here.

I have told the club to forget the idea of the £3.5k, I will do it myself and ultimately get the plane I choose checked thoroughly first of course.

I think what I need to do - when I come up for air from the studies for the written exams (just got HPL btw! - 1 down 6 to go) - is get out and look at some of these planes, as suggested (and kindly invited) in this thread. I must not lose the focus of the exams of course but if I can do this concurrently that will save me time later.

Thanks for the link to the site, I have looked. The sale planes all seemed to be located in the USA (they were all in dollars) but I presume that there is a healthy market for them here in the UK too. Is there a UK site do you know?

I don’t plan to buy the plan and then share it. I am browsing the mags…

Once again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

TP

Hi RodgerF:

Thanks for the link. I am exploring the site…!

TP

IO540

22nd Aug 2003, 14:38

Re the price, you will get something at every level, and you will get something pretty good for £100k. The main thing I would watch is the avionics, which on an IFR plane you want to be working! The panel alone in a decent IFR plane is worth a lot more than most Cessnas and PA28s you see around.

If you want an IR then (assuming a PPL) N-reg is the only realistic way. There are a number of firms who will set up the US trust for you and run it afterwards. You are then under the FAA regime; the CAA know nothing about the plane. I can't say more because I am working towards this myself and haven't yet sorted it all out. But you need at least the FAA PPL before you go to N-reg because the FAA requires that an N-reg plane is flown with an FAA License (anywhere in the world).

Personally I would get the PPL and do some 30-50hrs at least before going for the IR. But actually if I could re-run things I would have bought my present plane and did the PPL in it; the normal way (a PPL in a C152 or similar) only proves that you can drive a 2CV. Anyone with intelligence and aptitude can easily master the few extra bits in a decent plane to start with.

The ltd co. ownership issue depends on whether there will be other pilots (it should protect the owner from personal liability if someone else crashes it and the insurance doesn't pay out) and whether there will be business travel (easier to make a case if the ownership is in a company). Some owners own the plane in the business which is their main livelihood; this is good if there is a lot of business travel and should be OK if you are the only pilot! There are various angles on this one. But unless you do lots of business travel, or rent it out, you won't be able to get away with full VAT reclaim. A good accountant should offer tips here.

I don't see how magically your club could find you a plane which you could not find yourself. That proposal is bizzare, IMV. Do they think you are stupid but have lots of money?

The socata.org site is pretty international. There are a few used planes listed there but there are many more out and about, and perhaps the best ones are't advertised (yet). If you look for a TB, call Pat Patel at Air Touring and ask him if he knows of anything available. He also knows the history of most UK TBs. You will need to check out any other plane in a similar way - don't rely on the owner saying "nothing at all has gone wrong with it in the last 5 yrs".

I hope this helps. It's just my view and there are lots of other things to consider. But there aren't many planes on the market in that category that aren't too old so that will be the hardest job.

flyingfemme

22nd Aug 2003, 15:30

There's some good advice flying around here........a couple of small points :

Sourcing the aircraft you want can be very difficult in the UK because there simply aren't that many GA aircraft and few are for sale at any time. You may not find the flavour you require and just have to buy what is available. In the US there is about half the world's supply of aircraft and the market is very fluid; you can write the specification first and then find it/buy it. It will already have an N on the side, saving you the trouble and expense. Any IFR equipped aircraft with 1,000 miles range can be ferried across the Atlantic. Budget $10,000 to get it back.

The VAT/tax thing can also be a pain and should be explored thoroughly with your accountant before you buy. At the level you want to invest VAT should not be a problem for resale - many people operate them through a company and you could always sell it outside the EU. Recreational aircraft buyers have a resistance to paying + VAT that does not always make sense. As I understand it there is no such thing as "partial VAT" - you pays it or you don't and you claim it back or not. Some VAT inspectors have funny ideas about this. I have never met a partially VAT-paid aircraft! Tax is something else and can be expensive..........

If your company buys the aircraft (pays/reclaims VAT) and runs it then you may be liable for income tax on a "benefit in kind" for personal use. Like company car taxation but bigger! If you can only do business flying that is OK or you could rent the aircraft at a market rate (plus VAT, of course) for bimbling. In practice there is a lot of business/training/currency flying to be done!

Once you have decided what you want it may be worth joining the owners club for access to specialised knowledge and parts. You will need to find a reputable engineer to do the prepurchase inspection - owners clubs are a fabulous source of info.

LowNSlow

22nd Aug 2003, 17:41

As flyingfemme says be VERY wary of the Benefit In Kind aspect of the UK tax system. I know of a chap who had a PA-28 through his company and it was only flown only by him on "business use". He got hit for Benefit In Kind on ALL the hours it was available to him for private use appropriate to his licence at a (high) percentage of the local club charge out rates. End result? 25k tax bill. OUCH.

The tax inspector who had gone after that guy also came after me but I had been renting my Aerobat (owned by my company) to various flying schools and I could prove limited personal use. After 5 years of hassle and numerous abortive attempts at tribunals she finally gave up and left me alone. My accountants advice was either get another flying person in the company so the aircraft effectively becomes a "pool" aircraft and thus neither person attracts the Benefit In Kind or get another aircraft then, as you can't fly both at the same time, you are liable for neither, strange, but he seemed to know what he was talking about!

englishal

22nd Aug 2003, 17:44

Budget $10,000 to get it back
I'll fly it back for you for free, just pay my expenses and the flight costs !.....:D Or if you prefer I will fly it back with you...what a trip.

On the N reg note, you save the 5% Insurance Premium tax if its on the N reg apparently.....

Cheers
EA:D

flyingfemme

22nd Aug 2003, 19:07

You gets what you pays for.......

$10,000 doesn't go far when you are paying expenses (for a trip in a aircraft that is not known-ice) for aircraft and crew, insurance, airfares, overflights and nav fees.

IO540

23rd Aug 2003, 02:52

Yes the VAT rules aren't trivial. Generally a "plus VAT" plane is one which has never passed through the hands of a VAT registered person or corporate body. A "VAT paid" plane is the opposite. The former tends to appeal to another VAT registered customer (because they can claim the VAT back); the latter tends to appeal to a non-VAT registered customer (but its price will be somewhat inflated because the seller doesn't like the fact that he lost the VAT when he bought it).

How would you break down the $10k ferry budget? Is it the HF radio installation? The fuel would come to nothing like that. The Newfoundland -> Greenland -> Iceland route should be a straightforward flight, subject to weather. The planning will take more time than doing it!

There is going to be import duty and import VAT to pay though, I am pretty sure, as for any import. It is common knowledge that many planes have been imported "informally" over the years...

Re private use of a company asset (this assumes the plane is owned by a ltd co), it is a requirement of both the Revenue and the Customs and any private use is fully reimbursed to the owning company. The company then must invoice the pilot, as £X plus VAT. This full reimbursement normally avoids the tax on benefit issue.

What I don't know is whether, having done that, the VAT inspector might still disallow 100% VAT reclaim. I believe he would disallow it unless there is substantial commercial element. This means either renting, or business travel. One needs to talk to a good accountant. Renting isn't a big issue; you find 1-2 trusted pilots who are named pilots on the insurance; you then don't need a "club use" policy which would cost some 50% extra. Obviously you would never rent anything decent to a flying school.

If the plane is owned by a ltd co, if the pilot flies himself the co. invoices him (+VAT), if somebody else flies the plane the co. invoices that person (+vat), if it is a business trip then the co. invoices the co. on whose business the flight was. This is standard practice and is 100% above board. In this way, setting up a ltd co. to own the plane makes everything very clear.

I spent some time looking at £60k-£100k IFR planes 1 year ago and found a fair number, mostly in the TB10 area. (I ruled out anything with just 1 door, or anything high-wing; that takes care of most of the market...). They are advertised on various for-sale websites, backs of magazines, websites of both new-plane and used-plane dealers. I think by far the biggest challenge is checking a plane out. It will be at least 10 years old and parts of its history may be unverifiable especially if it was ever owned abroad. There are a lot of very old 1970s "IFR-equipped" planes out there, e.g. Rockwell Commander 112TCs, in that price range and I think those are definitely best avoided. In that price range I would go for a TB10 every time. In the £100-£120k range I would look at a TB20, just about. At £150k or so the Diamond DA40, brand new, would be the very obvious choice; nothing comes close at the price.

flyingfemme

23rd Aug 2003, 03:58

Point by point IO540.......

I think you got the plus VAT/VATpaid thing ar$e about face! A VAT paid aircraft is one that has had VAT paid, but not reclaimed, by a non-VAT registered person or corporate body. A plus VAT aircraft belongs to a VAT registered body that has reclaimed the tax.

$10k was a ballpark figure to buy it and get it back here - I know a bit about what ferries cost and some of the variables are......which side of the US you pick up from, the weather (delays in Iceland and Greenland can be very expensive), flights out there can also vary wildly as can hotel rooms. Staying around for a couple of weeks while inspections are done, money transferred and registrations organised is not generally free. Fuel in Greenland is $10 a gallon. Insurance is now very difficult to get unless you hire a reputable and experienced ferry pilot; even then it can cost up to 2% of hull value. You will need an immersion suit, life jackets and a raft (these cannot be taken over with you on an airline). HF is not always needed. Handling fees soon mount up in the far north.....

Duty is not payable on GA aircraft and NEVER buy something that is already here without establishing its VAT status!

Why rule out high-wing aircraft? One of the better bets in this price range is a 210........you won't get an all-weather single for this money so it will always be a compromise.

IO540

23rd Aug 2003, 06:24

I think you got the plus VAT/VATpaid thing ar$e about face! A VAT paid aircraft is one that has had VAT paid, but not reclaimed, by a non-VAT registered person or corporate body. .

Whoops, sincere apologies. I took great care to word it and I STILL got it backwards :O

Just a little nitpick though:

A plus VAT aircraft belongs to a VAT registered body that has reclaimed the tax

In the above I would delete the "that has reclaimed the tax" part. A "plus VAT" plane is simply one being sold by anybody who is forced to issue a VAT invoice. Whether they claimed the VAT back on it in the past does not matter.

Why rule out high-wing aircraft? One of the better bets in this price range is a 210........you won't get an all-weather single for this money so it will always be a compromise.

I didn't like high wing because if you do anything more than a few degrees bank, you have to pray there is nobody there, because you can't see into a turn. I know one is supposed to look before turning, etc, but having been to uncontrolled fields where the locals cut you up on the inside, on the outside, everywhere they can, I don't regret my decision. Cessnas do have some plusses: they are very common, landing gear is hard to break, have good short field performance and don't mind grass.

How old would a C210 be today? I have just looked at a few for-sale ones and they are very old indeed!!

An all-weather plane does not exist. The cheapest/nearest one is possibly an SEP with full TKS, about £300k, and that system really works very well, reportedly handling the worst icing conditions. The cheaper alternative is some old dog of a twin with rubber boots in which case be ready for double the maintenance cost of the sort of SEP the original person was probably after.

flyingfemme

23rd Aug 2003, 16:45

Ah. The new fixation!

Guess we'll just have to agree to differ.....I prefer to look at the kind of life and quality of maintenance an aircraft has had.

New leaves you with very little choice at all; especially at that price.

IO540

24th Aug 2003, 00:46

The original man can't get a NEW plane of any useful sort within his budget; a really basic IFR-ish 4-seater starts at £150k. So that was just by way of an example.

Equally I would not suggest a 1960s plane to a novice owner for IFR flight. The avionics will either be mostly dead, missing, or will have a long and uncertain history.

niallcooney

24th Aug 2003, 00:56

Guys,

I'm not surprised at the very high level of useful comment on this topic, and I must thank Phoenix for bringing the topic up as I'm looking for an N-reg aircraft myself after I get my FAA PPL/IR... for use in Ireland of course. Oh the joys of being free from the IAA!

I do have a question though. What about considering twins? Are they any better a buy? For example an Aztec would be cheaper then a TB20, has more redundancy and can lift a good bit more... any thoughts? (About twins in general, not nessecarily the Aztec)

Nial

The Phoenix Rises

24th Aug 2003, 02:28

What a really interesting and varied amount of replies. Thanks folks, this is great!

Hi IO540:

I will have to have a long chat and make a plan with the accountants over the VAT and ownership issue. I am in a fluid tax situation anyway, as I may have mentioned earlier, and so it is all up for review, but hopefully this will get resolved shortly.

LOL! No, I don’t believe the aero club thinks I am stupid, but they might have smelt a bit of money I suppose. Anyway they are out of it for a while, and I will look myself.

I don’t think I can get into the invoicing, that seems a real nightmare. What actually constitutes making the plane attract VAT I wonder? If I am nomadic for tax, where does this leave things? If the plane is registered in the USA and comes from there, or France, and is on the move as I might be, I presume the VAT is not relevant…

I have set my budget. £100k it is, and so I will find the best I can within that. As you say, a new 4-seater is not within that.

Hi flyingfemme:

I get out to the States enough to find a plane if that is the route I end up going. Plane for plane, I wonder if the price is cheaper in the USA than UK for the type of planes under discussion here - and not forgetting your figure of $10k for bringing it into the UK.

Points noted over the tax and VAT.

Interesting about the details of getting the plane back from the States… You have obviously done this before yourself…?!

I would not take a high-wing aircraft simply because I have not learned on one and so I might as well continue along with the lines of my knowledge and (limited) experience so far. It seemed logical.

Hi LowNSlow:

I am onto the Benefit In Kind angle, and will watch it. It all seems to come back to where I am resident for tax as well, which in itself is something I am looking at.

Hi englishal:

You’re on for flying it back together! Interesting on the 5% IT.

Hi niallcooney:

Interesting question about the twins… Over to you folks on this one?!

If you are after an N-reg as well, I hope after all this we don’t end up going after the same plane…!!

Thanks again everyone, and I look forward with appreciation to more of your experienced opinions.

TP

englishal

24th Aug 2003, 03:06

I originally wanted to buy a twin in the US and bring it back, but once you have a twin, your costs go up by about 75% in Europe. This goes for simple things like landing fees, and fuel as well as maintenance [eg an factory overhauled engine will cost roughly $19,000 for a Seneca, and you need 2 ! A Single will set you back about the same, maybe a little less, and this is in the States where it is roughly £ for $]. Plus you have numerous other difficulties to deal with, like insurance, you'd probablly need 200 hrs TT and maybe 25-50 on type to even get considered. As an example me and my mate found a lovely Cessna 402 for sale, needed some work [like engines] and we considered it [dunno why, maybe had too many beers the night before:D]. Got an insurance quote, and it was $20,000 !! So we gave up that idea :D

One twin I would REALLY like to own is a Diamond DA42 Twinstar. Jet-A1 powered, fast powerfull, 4 seats, climbs like a bat out of hell, full FADEC engines, ie. computer controlled, fuel management, auto props, and very modern and high tech [so you can't damage the engines by mis-management]. Cheap to run at about £18 of fuel per hour, and cruises at ~200 kts. Costs about euro300,000 though, so another pipe dream!

If I were you, I'd stick with the single idea for a few years, while at the same time getting some multi stuff behind your belt. Then upgrade to a nice Beachcraft Baron or something :D

Cheers
EA

IO540

24th Aug 2003, 06:57

Add to that, a plane over 2000kg MTOW has to pay for Class A airspace. I heard that a Seneca can just squeeze in under that, if you bend the rules a bit.

Can you get an overhaul on an IO-360 or IO-540 for $19k? That seems very cheap.

The consensus among experienced twin pilots appears to be that unless you have a lot of recurrent asymmetric flight training, you are a lot more likely to kill yourself in a twin if the engine packs up anywhere near the ground.

An Aztec can probably carry more than a TB20, but a bigger plane can usually carry more than a smaller plane. You just pay more money to fly it :O But personally I don't think an Aztec (looking at a typical one in typical condition for the age, and the condition of the equipment likely to be found inside) is comparable with a 10 year old TB20. The maintenance cost would be at least double.

I am no international tax expert but I would have thought that if the owner moves about all the time, he can in practice avoid paying just about all taxes other than direct ones like VAT.

I have met pilots who didn't want to get into any of the book-keeping hassles that I described; the solution was to allocate an extra 17.5% on top of everything, including the initial purchase price, and buy and run the plane like you would with a personal car. No problem, just costs more.

flyingfemme

24th Aug 2003, 16:28

Bu**er, typed out a long reply and the PC went bang!

Yes Phoenix, I have done it before. I run the business end of an aircraft sales and ferry outfit. The advice here is free!:ok:

Eurocontrol (for those interested in twins) applies to all aircraft over 4400lbs that FILE OR FLY IFR - nothing to do with class A airspace. Budget around $60 an hour for the lightest and $100 an hour for the heavier stuff (402) but it varies from country to country. Some countries now charge for VFR in this weight range as well - BE WARNED. Their billing system is the most arcane and complex I have ever met - don't get involved unless you need to!

VAT is Europe wide - any aircraft resident in Europe for 6 months or more must be VAT paid. You do have the choice of which EU country to pay in. Mess with the excise and it can be very expensive - the French and Spanish Customs have a habit of impounding N reg aircraft with no proof of VAT status. The only way round it is to move your residence (and the aircraft's) to the CI.

IO540 - I disagree with you again! There are some lovely aircraft of 1960s vintage in the US that are well-equipped for IFR flight. The market is different there.

The main reason I mention 210s is that they are about the only thing in this price bracket that can be equipped with turbo, pressurisation and light deice. Yes, they are older - but many have been looked after carefully and updated sensibly. They also have lots of space and two doors!

Be VERY careful attempting a North Atlantic ferry if none of the crew is experienced. You may not get insurance anyway.

IO540

27th Aug 2003, 15:51

FF

IO540 - I disagree with you again! There are some lovely aircraft of 1960s vintage in the US that are well-equipped for IFR flight. The market is different there.

I think it is more a question of applicability to this requirement than a basic disagreement.

I bought an aircraft 1 year ago, and I am still learning. Still learning about airframe, avionics, engine issues, maintenance procedures, about the con artists that operate in GA (MOST businesses in GA are at best run by well meaning incompetents, at worst by crooks), about the regulations, warranty procedures, you name it.

I would not recommend a first time buyer to go to the USA, select a plane, verify its history, fly it over (or get someone else to fly it over), etc. He would certainly need to bring with him an experienced person to help, and there are so few owners in the UK who have experience of anything beyond the usual ancient standard stuff. There are lots of people hanging around flying clubs who seem to know it all but in reality they know next to nothing. He would have to bring a very experienced licensed engineer, with avionics knowledge, with him, and do a full avionics test over there.

Re the equipment, in the USA an IFR GPS is a legal substitute for an ADF and a DME (except in specific scenarios which can usually be circumvented) and if one of these packs up they chuck it out, make a bigger hole in the panel and stick a GNS430 in there. An ADF & DME are mandatory in Europe but aren't exactly cheap, about £5k for the two. If you buy an old dog you could be lucky, or this could be just a start.

flyingfemme

27th Aug 2003, 16:31

Now here we agree, IO540.

It's both WHAT you know and WHO you know and buying a slightly younger machine will not make a blind bit of difference!

Ain't no substitute for research, professionals that you trust and NOT BEING SEDUCED BY A SHINY SPINNER OR NEW PAINT.

Avionics are available used both here and there and I think £5k is a bit steep for an ADF and DME.....

MOST businesses in GA are at best run by well meaning incompetents, at worst by crooks

I excuse you the thought as it only highlights your ignorance...there are honest people in aviation but private buyers often discount them as "too expensive" or ignore their advice when it doesn't coincide with "the plan".

Buying an aircraft is much like buying a house - the first experience is often painful and expensive but you learn....

IO540

28th Aug 2003, 15:30

I excuse you the thought as it only highlights your ignorance

On the contrary Flyingfemme, my comment (notice I didn't say "all") was based on the prevalence of cash flow problems (often severe by normal industry standards), and resulting credit control problems, in this business.

Renting pilots don't notice it, but one can notice it when one is trying to get a replacement part for example, is told by the repair shop that they can't get it for X weeks - when in reality their supplier has stopped their account because they haven't paid him for 4 months...

The Phoenix Rises

30th Aug 2003, 20:51

Hello folks! Great to see the replies - as always, thanks to everyone for your continued invaluable input!

Hi englishal:

Well there’s no doubt about it, it must be a single for me, for the foreseeable future. That will be quite sufficient for the purposes I have in mind so far.

Hi IO540:

I still haven’t had a chance to sort out the tax/VAT angle yet. The joys of work and other commitments… However, so far it does all seem to point to being nomadic for a while. I appreciate the frankness - nay harshness! - over the suppliers/dealers etc. It sounds even worse (if that were possible) than second-hand car dealers! I can see a loooong learning curve here…

Hi flyingfemme:

Well I sure appreciate the free advice! (Actually I appreciate most things that come free!) The CI is an interesting idea, although I have heard that the advantages there are not as good as they used to be. I have a possible link with the IoM - does the same apply there in your opinion re the VAT? And what if the plane is out of the EU for some time during the 6 months to which you refer - would I escape the VAT then?

Regards to all.

TP

flyingfemme

31st Aug 2003, 00:17

Sorry Phoenix - IOM is tax-free, but not VAT free. Part of the VAT problem is your domicile - I'm not an accountant or tax expert but where YOU are based is as relevant as where your aircraft is based.
I think the rules are that 6 months in the EU, unbroken, means you pay the VAT. You may be able to wriggle and muddy the waters for a while - but, if you get caught, it's tough to prove that you shouldn't have to pay it. And they have your aircraft until they are satisfied.....
Could you go and live in Denmark for a while? I believe they have a zero VAT rate on personal aircraft. Import it into the EU while you live in Denmark and, once you have that C88, move at will.

bluskis

31st Aug 2003, 02:12

Most points to be considered have already been made, but in case it has slipped unnoticed, you must make sure you have proof of payment of VAT in an EU country, even if you have an N reg, otherwise you could be in trouble, like impounded, in several countries including France, and in some the period of grace is nothing like six months.

Just my opinion on some other points, if you are going to cross water frequently go for a low wing aircraft.

Go for N reg, and keep the weight below the Eurocharge threshold.

G reg could be a pain to maintain if you are only in the UK for short periods of time.

Be very careful about buying in the US, they may have more planes but they don't necessarily look after them, and if a dealer knows you are going to disappear to the other side of the world, he won't have a big incentive to think about your future business.

If France is one of the countries you intend to spend time in, maintenance might be easier with a French aircraft even if it is N reg.

dirkdj

31st Aug 2003, 16:27

Phoenix,

Choosing a correct aircraft type as owner is a complex and sometimes very emotional issue. First define your mission profile.
Then try to rent the aircraft in type and get some hours in it flying your typical mission, not twice around the circuit.

The first 10£ you spend should go to a web subscription of www.aviationconsumer.com.

There you can read realistic reports on most GA aircraft types with their strenghts and weaknesses. You can also buy the printed edition of aviation consumer's 'Used aircraft guide' but it is about the size of two phone books, and the web edition is easier to use and has many other equally interesting articles.

Secondly, if you have decided on a type, join the type club or user organization dealing with the type, there is the Mooney pilots association, the American Bonanza Society, Cessna Pilots assoc. and many others. They are an invaluable source of information.

Then you could try to get in touch with a local owner/pilot having the same type and willing to share his experiences. I am sure buying a good meal for him will pay for itself quickly in extracted information (building on the information you already collected as noted earlier).

In the meantime (this process will take a few months) continue flying, building experience and work towards an IR if you consider using the airraft for serious business use.

Don't forget to look at the website

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html

and to read all of John Deakin's engine columns (Pelican Perch series).

If you do all this right, and have the best suitable aircraft for your purposes, maintained by a knowledgable mechanic, kept in top operating condition, flown by a competent and careful pilot (yourself), then you will be in pilots/owners heaven.

Dirk (49 airplane-years owner and counting)

Flyboy-F33

1st Sep 2003, 17:39

Good advice from Dirkdj!

Rides in a Bonanza plus unlimited access to my bank of experience on buying and owning both N and G reg can be obtained in exchange for a decent curry :D

Please email for further info.

Rgds

GG

Monocock

2nd Sep 2003, 05:36

I would like to make a small obsevation at this stage in this thread. Without wishing to sound like a kill joy can I just ask a simple question......

Is it really wise to be persuading a recently qualified PPL to purchase a fast and complex a/c with so little experience?

Without wishing to reel off a multitude of previous pilots who carried out this very fatal mistake, I feel it is important that the views of some of you experienced lot might cloud the judgement somewhat of a feshly qualified PPL. I think that your advice has been excellent and I have enjoyed reading it but surely 100 hours in a simple 4 seater will ensure this mans longevity????

I am reletivlely inexperienced with just over 1000 hrs and I am enjoying taking each step at a time. Looking back, had I jumped out of the club C150 with a shiny new PPL in 1989 and straight into a TB10 I would consider myself relativley fortunate to be sitting here typing.

Flare up as much as you like. My comments aren't intended to antagonise. The Phoenix Rises has asked for advice and mine would be to go for something like the Robin, not the TB10 or the Bonanza.

I think Low and Slows post at the very start was a good one. Trying out something slightly more docile to make those guaranteed scary moments slightly less scary is a good plan in my book.
:ok:

flyingfemme

2nd Sep 2003, 15:20

Monocock - I think you'll find that several people have counseled a slow progression and trying/renting/leasing several types.

But, there's no point spending a lot of money on something that will not suit for very long and Phoenix wants something for IFR flying.

The US military routinely trained ab initio pilots in Mentors for a very long time - that's just another Bonanza. Insurance requirements will mean that a new pilot has plenty of supervised practice before being let out solo in a racy beast.

IO540

4th Sep 2003, 05:55

Monocock

Is it really wise to be persuading a recently qualified PPL to purchase a fast and complex a/c with so little experience?

It all depends on what he wants to do. If he wants to fly seriously, IFR as necessary, then almost certainly he simply can't self fly hire something suitable. I bought mine about 60hrs after getting the PPL and it was the best decision.

"Fast" means 150kt over say 110kt. This is equivalent to perhaps a 100hr PPL over a 60hr PPL, in terms of keeping ahead of things. And decent working kit makes it so much easier anyway. Today I flew a number of 100-200 mile legs (abroad) and I'd quite like a 250kt plane :) In a decent plane one doesn't do nav PPL-style, visually.

"Complex" means what? Retractable gear is trivial (unless you forget to lower it, and there are usually a couple of interlocks to remind you. A VP prop isn't any more complex in practice; it's either fully fine, or set to some figure for cruise.

54.98N

4th Sep 2003, 07:03

Monocock,

Just dusted off my log-book and the TB10 was the first complex type I flew, with a grand total of 78 hours.

I don't recall it being difficult. I think it is down to the individual to understand his/her own limitations. The problems start when people can't/won't do this.

Regards,

N54.98N

dirkdj

4th Sep 2003, 17:15

I agree with flyingfemme.

It is cheaper to buy the right aircraft for the job the first time and keep it as long as it fulfills the mission. I had less than 100 hours when I flew a complex SEP seven seater to North Africa. Had made the trip once before with an experienced pilot in the RH seat.

My recommendation is to get the IR first as soon as possible. By that time, a BE36, CE210 or Mooney or Cirrus is certainly within the capabilities of the pilot. A good type specific checkout and maybe 25 hours of accompanied IFR cross country will certainly do the job.

Single pilot IFR is a multitasking job: aviating, navigating, communicating, etc, etc, ...keeping the priorities right. A good autopilot is certainly a must as well as the training how to use it.

The Phoenix Rises

5th Sep 2003, 02:37

Hello all. Well, the new PA that I thought would work out hasn’t worked out and so I am still struggling with my business workload, and slipping behind with my timescale to which I was hoping to adhere over my PPL work. However, there is nothing I can do about it, and I am not even going to try to take silly shortcuts. But, gee, I wish I could just concentrate on the flying part! Never mind!

Hi flyingfemme:

No. Denmark doesn’t appeal to me at all and I have no connection their either, business or family. No offence to anyone! And I appreciate your re-assurance over the type of aircraft so soon after getting my PPL. Which, by the way, if I can ever come up for air from this Air Law book will be a delight to have!

Hi bluskis:

Really good points for me to think on. Especially about buying in the USA. And, yes, France is one of the countries I had in mind for one of the 90 day stints

Hi dirkdj:

Brilliant, thanks. I have joined aviation consumer. I was already on a users group… And I am up for funding a few dinners here and there! Point taken over the IR.

Hi Flyboy-F33:

Ok, I’m up for that! You’ll here from me.

Hi Monocock:

Thanks for the concern, and I am quietly sitting here looking and learning. I would like to think I will be able to handle a more advanced aircraft, and I am genuinely concerned about buying one which within a fairly short period of time I might want to be changing and upgrading. But, this is all new to me and so I am looking and observing, steadily.

Hi IO540 and 54.98N:

I appreciate the confidence-building and re-assuring remarks.

Great to read your comments, as always. Extended thanks to all.

The Phoenix