IR Conversion

[Aircart]

A quick question :

What kind of hours could be expected to be reasonable on the FAA to JAA IR conversion course?

I know minimum requirements are 5 hour sim and 10 hours in the plane. If anyone has a rough idea please post or pm me.

Cheers
AC:D

[RVR800]

Well Over 10 grand for all the people I have known
Sad to say a shed load of cash at £6.00/minute!
The Flight test alone can cost 2 grand with repositioning

[FlyingForFun]

Good question, Aircart - I'd also be interested. Anyone with any input, could you please post here, and also specify what kind of experience you had when you did the conversion (total time, total instrument time, IMC rating, etc.)? :ok:

RVR - not sure what question you're answering, but it's not the one Aircart asked! He was asking about hours, not costs. But what aircraft are you using for an IR that costs £360/hr? :eek:

FFF
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[LFS]

The reduction of hours on the IR course was really intended for those with significant IFR experience on an ICAO IR. I always advise our students to expect something in the region of 20 - 30 hours for the conversion if they have purely obtained an FAA IR with no further experience to go with it.

[RVR800]

OK varies between £5 and £6 per minute
Just being realistic
What people want to know is the cost dont they?
Its cheaper at test centres like Leeds....

[dorosenco]

two friends of mine did it in 10 hours. I agree, they both had 2500+ hours and an FAA ATP.
I think that your best change is to do it as soon after your initial FAA IR or after 500+ of instrument flying later. That's when your are the most proficient.
It's hard to say. The standards are higher than the FAA in few spots : ILS deviation is only 1/2 scale instead of 3/4 scale and Minimum descent altitudes are +50 feet - 0 feet instead of +100 feet - 0 feet. En-route altitude hold is +100 - -100 feet like the FAA. You also do single-engine holds that you don't do for the FAA but the FAA is more difficult with the Partial Panel Approches that you don't do with the CAA.

Also,
Don't forget that people in Europe get their IR with 40 hours of training equivalent to the FAA. Also, these peoples have ~180 hours TT when they start their initial training, so far from being gods ... sorry for those who think that they ARE god ...

good luck.

PS : I'll let you know after I finish my conversion ...

[LFS]

dorosenco the minimum requirement is 15 hours for converting an ICAO IR.

[Fogbound]

IR
The holder of a current and valid Instrument Rating Aeroplane (IR(A)) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State may be issued with a JAR-FCL IR(A) providing the experience requirements as detailed in Section E1.2 have been met. Applicants must complete the following:

· Undertake IR theoretical knowledge instruction as determined by the Head of Training of an approved training provider.
· Pass all JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations at IR level. Applicants who have passed JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations at ATPL(A) level are exempted from this requirement.
· Complete a minimum of 15 hour instrument flying instruction (of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1 or 10 hours in a FNPT 2 or flight simulator.
· Complete any additional IR training considered necessary by the FTO
· Pass the 170A flight test
· Pass the IR(A) skill test (in accordance with Appendices 1 &2 to JAR-FCL 1.210) with a CAA Flight Examiner


Previous posts are quite right, it really is dependant on your previous experience. This states the minimum required hours for conversion. A good student could convert in 15 hours, a bad one.... who knows? Unfortunately an FTO cannot guess how much time you are going to need until they have flown with you at least once.

Also have you passed all 14 of the JAA examinations and do you already hold a JAA CPL? If not these also need to be looked at. I have replied to a more recent post with the details for CPL conversion. There are also a number of past posts on this topic, try a search for 'licence conversion' or alternatively 'Fogbound' as I have replied to a few of these posts answering the same questions.

[African Drunk]

Having done conversions for FAA students to JAA IR's most guys do go over the 15 hours. A big problem is that the standard of flight training in the states can vary greatly, if you go to a good school your training will be good but then the price difference to the uk will be much less.

The airspace is different and I have seen 2 guys who did JAA IR training in the states struggle returning to the UK.

[dorosenco]

I agree with African Drunk. The quality of training in the US can vary widely. Also, a CFII in the US can have as few as 190 hours TT and teach IR which wouldn't be the same quality training that you get from somebody who has 800+ of instrument time for JAA minimum requirements. Also, all the IR training is done in a single engine airplane. Multi engine procedures are not very common.
On the other hand, FTOs in the UK propose 35 hours of FNTPII training and 15 hours of multi-engine airplane. I don't know how much better you can get after 15 hours instead of 7-10 hours which is US typical Multi IR training.

PS: LFS, you're right. 15 hours minimum for conversion.

[Aircart]

:ok:

Thanks guys, I would expect about 20-25hrs max for the con, seems a bit sus that I was quoted 40+ hrs to do it!!!!!!!! :ooh:

Just testing the water, flying in this country is a little different but at the end of the day not by much!

Will Pick my school carefully!

Cheers

A/C

[JB007]

Aircart,

Who quoted you 40 hours for a conversion....????

[Aircart]

007

I was on a conversion course at tripple A flying school and had done 16hrs they said I had to do about another 10 in the sim and prob 15hrs in the A/C.

I didn't feel I was where I should be for the amount I had done I had not even reached the route section so still had a long way to go! :sad:

Just wanted a reality check to see what the norm is :suspect:

Oh well have been told by another company I should be good to go on the routes soon.

We will see

Cheers

AC :ok:

[JB007]

Triple 'A'...really?????!!!!!Thats suprising!!!!!!!http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/sick.gif

:mad:
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/ignore.gif

[Aircart]

:ooh:

Sounds like you've heard a few things, very similar to my experience?
:suspect:

It's so difficult to get an FTO to get you through in the minimum of time! (He he...)

Cheers I'm all ears!!!!!

[Ikkle!]

Well now......where shall we start with AAA eh??? !!!!! Any takers want to get the ball rolling before me ?????

[Megaton]

I had a look at Triple A for something similar and he basically told me I was crap before he'd even seen me fly. Also quoted training times very close to full IR course. I'm not brilliant but I'm not completely useless either. They were convenient but lost my trade for their attitude and charging extra for credit cards and £500 in the black at all times. It's a buyer's market: these people need to get real.

[Aircart]

This isn't the first comment like that I have heard about this place!

It saddens me to see these things said after I wasted so much money with them :sad:


:sad:

[Tinstaafl]

I went to Tayflight in Perth when I converted my licences/IR. Total time from 1st flight to the end of the combined GFT & IRT was under 10 hours. That was for the UK ATPL, not JAR though.

I'd go there again in an instant. There's accommodation, meals, a watering hole & a CAA examiner on the field.

[Aircart]

Tinstaafl

You did well, worth a look.

Anyone got any views on Airways Flight Training?

Cheers

AC

[Sean Dillon]

Need to becareful what I say here!! My last posting was removed when I tried to tell people my story of this particular FTO.

In short:
THIS IS MY OPINION TO WHICH I AM ENTITLED (Before I get the customary threat of solicitors from MPB) BASED ON MY OWN FINANCIAL EXPERIENCE.

Double the price you are given and add a bit would be my advice. No regard for your money or time.

[Danny]

Aircart said:I was on a conversion course at tripple A flying school and had done 16hrs they said I had to do about another 10 in the sim and prob 15hrs in the A/C.

I didn't feel I was where I should be for the amount I had done I had not even reached the route section so still had a long way to go!

Just wanted a reality check to see what the norm is

Just to make sure that everyone is aware, there are invariably two sides to every story and it is my and most moderators experience on PPRuNe and especially on the Wannabes forums that when someone makes a complaint about a school with a good reputation that the complaint is often 'distorted' and only seen from the perspective of the 'complainer'. In the case of Airstart I feel that it is necessary to point out that to self-assess that he wasn't where he felt he should be needs to be reflected against the background of experience up to that point. Perhaps he would care to let us know what that was. As an example let's take the case of an anonymous student. We'll call him Student X for this example:

As far as I am aware, Student X went to a reputable school such as Triple A after obtaining an FAA IR(A) for a 15 hour Abridged JAR IR(A) Course. It transpired, by his own admission, that he had been given little or no background technical knowledge and cursory, at best, pre-flight briefs and post-flight debriefs. As far as I'm aware no student at a reputable school like Triple A is judged on their capabilities without specific assessment. For Ham Phisted to allege that he was told his flying was "cr@p" before anyone at Triple A had seen it for themselves must be a distortion of the truth and I challenge Ham Phisted to contact me with precise details of how they managed to assess his flying without ever flying with him.

Anyway, back to Student X. It transpires that he had done little or no professional flying in the UK and was doing the IR(A) before having done the JAA CPL(A). He had not had 'attitude flying' emphasised resulting in basic instrument scan shortcomings, had effectively no NDB tracking/holding capability and was 'chasing' the ILS needles at the bottom of the slope. In view of his lack of UK flying experience he was given several aircraft backseat rides to assist, free of charge, in his acclimatisation. In short, though not his fault per se, the reality of JAR IR(A) training was rather a severe 'culture shock' to which he had difficulty mentally adjusting.

Triple A like most professional and reputable schools ensure that basic instrument flying skills and tracking/holding techniques are reasonably in place on the sim before moving onto the relatively expensive aircraft. Unfortunately in the case of Student X, despite repeated advice during the training, he did not readily adapt to the actual required situation and 'persisted' in the assumptive right that he would get through very close to minimum hours. Reputable schools always try to do their best to get as close as possible to minimum hours for students but it is also the case that there is no aptitude selection process for would be civil professional pilots and furthermore their previous flying experience can be severely lacking in application capabilities/basic aerodynamic understanding. Schools therefore can only work with the 'material' they are presented with.

In the case of Airstart with regard to additional hours that he said he was told he needed, I believe he deliberately exaggerating what was said to him. I understand that he made his own assessment of how many further sim hours he would require whereas he was actually told that probably only 4-8 would be required. With regard to the actual flying he was told there was a mandatory minimum of 10 hours plus 2 hours for the F170A, ie. a total of 12 hours. He was also told that, allowing up to 15 hours would be sensible and this possibly could include the actual Skill test itself, but with no guarantee of this. Amazing how things get distorted is it not?

So, if anyone else wants to make unsubstantiated claims from behind their cloak of anonymity, they had better be well prepared with facts and the truth otherwise they too may be subjected to balanced reporting of why they may have come to the conclusions they reached in the first place. Anyone else want to have a go at their training organisation without reflecting on the realities of what is involved to get to the required standards?

Don't deceive yoursleves as to your 'godly' status just because you have reached a milestone in your career aspirations. The JAA IR is a different kettle of fish to the FAA IR and unfortunately too many wannabes fail to realise that even after getting through the hoops there is much more to getting that first job. By being dishonest with yourself during your expensive training doesn't bestow you anything that you think may help you later on when you apply for jobs.

[Aircart]

:hmm:

Hmm...

Interesting read Danny.

You are right there are two sides to a story!

I have read yours with great interest and would like to tell my story.

I will not write a detailed report at present but will go away and acquire the "facts and truth" and get back to you.

Just to start though on Mr X, quote: "It transpires that he had done little or no professional flying in the UK"

I myself acquired a UK PPL in this country and then continued to
fly in this country for two years gaining a total of 115hrs left seat,
I also fly in the r/h seat of my friend’s plane (100hrs+) doing nav/radio etc.
We often go IFR and cross FIR boundaries to France etc.
I also man a tower at my local airfield and have a good idea of how UK RT works.

As for my instrument training, I completed an FAA IR in the states 45hrs dual in a BE-76 and then flew another 50hrs IFR PIC in a BE-76 Flying into places like Tampa, Sanford, Ft.Laurderdale, Miami etc.

Britain is not greatly different from IFR in the states.

My background in aviation goes back 5-6 years and in this time I have met a lot of nice people, one of my good friends dad is an IR instructor and I did not totally self asses my own position I also talked to others for advice.

I don't claim to be an above average pilot but I do have some experience to look back on and a lot of advice from others.

From reading the reply I do get a different picture to what this FTO was telling me when I was there!

Quote : "had effectively no NDB tracking/holding capability" :ouch:

I certainly wasn't told this when I was there! It is amazing how these things come out once you aren’t a customer!

Anyway as I said on a previous reply we will wait and see what my new FTO is like and then I can write back with facts!

Thanks for your time

AC

[FlyingForFun]

Danny - thanks for the advice, it's true that there are always two sides to a story.

In Aircart's case, although it's always dangerous to judge such things and draw conclusions from them, his posts come across as intelligent and well thought out. I don't doubt that there's a little exageration - there always is in any story - but I would also guess that Aircart has a genuine problem with his school. This isn't to put the school down in any way - it's just that some people are more suited to a particular school or a particular style of training than others, and Aircart may have picked a school which is unsuitable for his learning style.

Aircart, can I suggest that, if you're not happy, you move to another school - and then come back and let us know how it goes? If Danny is correct and your training has been lacking in any way, then you will struggle whichever school you go to, but you'll get there eventually. On the other hand, if you change school and find yourself progressing much faster, I'd be interested to know (and also interested to know why you think that was the case).

As for others who have similar problems, I think they make good threads, but would be better without naming the school (although Aircart only named the school in response to a specific question from JB007). We certainly don't want any school to get a bad name for itself simply because one student found they didn't fit their needs. Fortunately, in this case, the school has a sufficiently good reputation that I don't think it's going to be harmed by one individual case.

That aside, Aircart's initial question (which didn't relate to any particular school or give any background information about the reason for the question) was intruiging in itself - as I said way up at the top of the thread, it's a subject I'm very interested in, and it's not discussed very often.

FFF
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[Localiser Green]

Managed mine in just over 15 hours (5 of which were sim). Benefits were doing it at LBA (LFS) so no positioning for the skills test, and also I went straight through the FAA to JAA CPL/Multi conversion on the exact same aircraft before commencing the IR conversion (so no time wasted getting used to the a/c type, etc..).

Wasn't bad going to say that I was 2 years out of practice from my FAA IR pass. Treat the 15 hours as your minimum but bank on spending a bit more. Can be done.

Oh and watch out for the con artist schools (naming no names but they are big 'reputable' ones) who will insist on telling you you need 40 hours minimum to convert FAA IR > JAA IR. :rolleyes:

[dorosenco]

There are a lot of interesting debats posted.
Only one comment:
Stop saying that JAA IR is "different" from FAA IR. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are N-reg airplanes flying around the UK including commercial aviation (airlines) from and to the US. I'm sure that flying an ILS in the UK is the same as flying it in the US.

[Hulk]

Do not know what system is better. But it depends a lot of the pilot. Some are good with few hours, some are bad and will always be bad. Some guys need 70h for a first solo and some fly solo after 5-6 hours.Some will be airline pilots, and some should do something else.

[Aircart]

Hi

Well I’m back after my first week at my new FTO; sorry for the slow reply I do not have any access to the Internet in the week.

To start with I would like to thank FFF for his supportive and kind comments it’s nice to see people with a balanced opinion!

As for gathering “facts and truths” the day I left the FTO I was told 5 to 10 hrs in the sim I don’t remember the peculiar figures of 4-8! The time in the aircraft was up for debate, when I posted my reply I did not exaggerate these hours I merely put down what I thought was closer to reality!

As it happens when I had done about 5hrs in the sim I asked approximately how much more time they thought I needed in the stimulator they said about another 10 so I went along with that, once reaching 16.6hrs in the sim and I asked how much more time I needed the 5-10hr figure came out so if I had already gone over original hrs I’m bound to go over the next figure so by putting 10hrs I think I was being fair and not over exaggerating!
By this time I was feeling uncomfortable and cancelled the rest of my training with the FTO.

Since leaving and reading the reply from Danny, which seems obviously written or at least co-written by the owner of the FTO in question, I feel really bitter.

I did feel that the reply was a direct attack on my flying ability my “mental capacity” and my judgement.
This reply was rude and to me Personal, comments like:
Quote : “Don't deceive yourselves as to your 'godly' status just because you have reached a milestone in your career aspirations.”
are well undeserved!
I never boasted about my FAA IR and don’t even think of it as a milestone!
The JAA IR maybe something to be proud of but it’s far from the end!

These sniping comments show the real colours of the person that wrote them.

I am glad of my decisions and have really benefited from changing my school, like FFF said some schools aren’t for everyone!

As for my new FTO! The first week was a total success, I flew for 2.5hrs in the sim even doing a route, the sim instructor said he didn’t know why I had not been put on the real plane, my sim flying was fine!

I was in the plane within 2 days and I was told by my instructor that my first week had gone very well and that my flying was good!

It also has to be said that little touches like having your name on a mug for your free tea/coffee when you walk through the door in the morning make all the difference!
Also lectures and books aircraft hire for test including VAT etc. are all part of the reasonable course fee!

What a refreshing change!

Oh well these are my thoughts, would be interested to hear from others.

Cheers

AC