I've had enough

[david.porter9]

I have wanted to fly since I was about 18, and two years ago at the age of 36 I finally found that I could afford to start learning. However the lessons with my first instructor were not enjoyable and after three months I changed instructors.

My second instructor made the lessons fun because of his enthusiasm for flying, and I completed most of my training with him. However he has now left. Before he left, though, he said I was ready to do my skills test. (I've also passed all but one of the exams).

Today I had some ground school with my third instructor in preparation for the skills test. Due to this instructor's style this lesson felt to me like an exercise in ritual humiliation and has completely destroyed what confidence I had in my limited flying abilities. I called the lesson short because of how it was going and left the airfield feeling sick and completely gutted. He thought I was not being 'receptive'.

To be objective for a moment, I could see what he was trying to achieve, and I should have known more of the answers to the questions he was asking, given that I've already done most of the exams. However I don't see why I should have to be objective. As a paying customer, why the
:mad: do I have to be objective? Okay, maybe I'm a bit thick, but I don't need to pay thousands of pounds to be made to feel a complete idiot. Learning to fly should be something you enjoy, not endure. If I want humiliation I can get if for free elsewhere.

Yes, I could change instructors. Yes, I could change schools. But this would involve more time, money and inconvenience, which I'm simply not prepared to spend or put up with. I guess I just don't want it badly enough any more. I've been here before, where I've persevered with something I should have given up on earlier, in order to prove something to myself. I don't need to do that any more.

Having just read back through what I've typed so far, if this all sounds rather pathetic then I don't think I've truly conveyed how I was made to feel today. But maybe I'm just the (over) sensitive type. I'm also fed up with instructors being late for lessons, and finding the plane is u/s when I get to the airfield but nobody calls and says not to bother coming in, and not being recognised by the other instructors, even though I've been going there every other week for two years (and yet when my girlfriend has come with me, they all say hello to her - funny that!), etc, etc. But hey, if you want to learn to fly, that's the kind of crap you have to put up with, right? Er, no, actually.

Anyway, my apologies for a long post, and for it probably not making any sense at all - it's very late and I couldn't go to sleep without getting it off my chest. Thanks for listening, but I've had enough. Rant over.

Safe flying,

Dave.

[GrantT]

"Yes, I could change instructors. Yes, I could change schools. But this would involve more time, money and inconvenience, which I'm simply not prepared to spend or put up with. I guess I just don't want it badly enough any more."

I think that sums it up right there. :rolleyes:

[Pink_aviator]

HELO DAVE
Thought i'd add my four penny worth.

I have recently had to exsperiance, four different instructors (much against my will ,due to my usual FI leaving),and have exsperianced the feeling of "inadaquacy" (if that is the correct word to use.
I have been flying for nearly four months,and have not as many exams as you ,although i have 40 hours .

I some times feel incredably stupid,when being briefed (and i have usually read up on the chapter beforehand, )but quite often what I feel I know, just goes out of my head when put on the spot with a question fired at me.I do not really like one to one,for that very reason.
When travelling home after the lesson.I am kicking myself, for saying something incredably stupid and wrong,when I know the correct answer.
I have always liked consistancy,and prefere to stick with one FI,then he really should know ,what you've taken in ,and what exactly he has taught you, but can also see that you do pick up points,from someone different aswell.

AS to being ignored at the club ,especially having invested so much money there ,is disgracefull.

That would never happen at my club,but it is only a small one.
I have also been alerted when the weather,has been to wild to fly ,and as I have a long 160 mile trip , I appreciated,the thought and conern.

I started to fly at 48 and it was never an life long ambition,(i can't say to much as it is all on another thread),
but I have nearly given up so many times in my short 16 weeks ,and i don't suspect,that my motivation was as strong as yours,and I have had , different obstacles,thrown at me on the way, but feel i have invested to much time and money to give uo at the last hurdle,(but i'm not there yet.)

I'm not very articulate,and waffle alot , and hope i havn't missed the point ,on your wanting to give up.

But when i have felt i havn't known enough at a lesson ,i just want to get home and reread the relavant bits ,so I will not make that mistake (or get flustered,and give the wrong answer again)

For what its worth, Its another day to day,and you should rethink.you sound so close.
Get another instructor and complete it.

PINK-AVIATOR

[WestWind1950]

bravo Pinkster!

that's just the kind of motivation Dave needs!

And she's right, Dave. Don't give up! A student cannot be expected to know everything and do everything perfect... he's a student after all! It's the instructors job to show him, teach him how it's done and patiently practice it with him until he gets it right. Some students grasp it right away, some need longer.... so what! And it should be fun!!! why do it otherwise... you're doing it to enjoy and not because you have to!
It's frustrating to have to keep adjusting to different instructors... each has their own personality, their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own way of doing things that the poor student has to keep adjusting to. It has some advantages to try out flying with someone new, but not the way you experienced it. There are sometimes a personality clash, the chemistry is just not there, then it's ok to change ...
Have you talked to other students about it? Do they also have the same experiences you do? If so, then sit down with them and the head instructor and get things cleared.... you may find out, that you're not alone with the problem. If it seems that only you have a problem, then try to find out what it is... maybe your girl friend can do some detective work :E

I wish you all the best and hope you don't give up!! You've already invested a lot in your life's dream.... go for it!! :ok:


http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif WestWind1950

P.S. no reason to apologise for long postings... it's got to let off steam!

[Mr Wolfie]

David,

I was fortunate to have had only one instructor during my PPL. His instructing style was however very matter of fact and abrupt, - if you were having an off day & your flying was cr@p, he would say, "you are having an off day & your flying is cr@p" (or worse). A lot of punters didn't really get on with him, found him abrupt and overly critical, and therefore did not enjoy their training.

For me, his (mostly constructive) criticism was water off a ducks back. At the end of the day - I wanted to learn to fly, & be competent & safe - and therefore if I was doing something wrong or was picking up any bad habits I wanted to be told. No point in pussy footing around.

However - just before my skills test, at the same point as you are now, I did a mini mock test with him to prepare. The viz was pretty poor so it was difficult on the nav & diversion practice to try & pick a distant feature & hold heading, so I was having difficulty in accurate straight & level. Without an obvious horizon, stalls & steep level turns also became more "challanging". Anyway, enough excuses - suffice to say that my flying that day was pretty poor (and my instructor made sure I knew it). I left that lesson feeling absolutely gutted, deflated and dejected. It took me a couple of days to snap out of it. I think my instructor was probably no different towards me than previously, it is just that you become so "wound-up" before your test and are so wanting to be built up prior to it that you become perhaps ultra sensitive to criticism.

After passing my skills test, I told my instructor how de-motivational that last lesson had been & he said that it wasn't uncommon for students to have a disasterous last lesson followed by the best flying they have ever done in their subsequent skills test. On reflection, I think he ought to realise that students needed more of a confidence boost prior to the test, but also that I was probably more p1ssed off with myself than with him for what I know was a poor performance.

Enough rambling - if you want to learn to fly enough, David, pick yourself up and go out and "show" your new instructor that you can do it, after all your last instructor thought that you were ready for test, and it is your examiner that you need to impress in a week or two not your current instructor. You're too close to throw in the towel now. :ok:

Mr. W.

[Timothy]

David

If it makes you feel any better about your personal humiliation, I had a first instructor who would beat his dog (in front of me) if I performed badly. I was 14 or 15 at the time and therefore too young to entirely place the blame on the instructor, so therefore took a good proportion on my own shoulders.

I won't identify the instructor or the place, but if anyone else remembers the guy, I am talking a pipe-smoker in the East of the UK, in the late sixties or early seventies.

W

[Flock1]

Dave,

I can really understand where you are coming from, becasue I, too, almost hung up my flying goggles after a lesson with a particulary abrasive instructor.

I was a very apprehensive student throughout the whole of my training, and I lacked confidence at every new stage of my learning. I was very susceptable to critisism, and wrongly assumed that I was the worst student at everything. And this sets the scene for my brush with a poor instructor.

Unlike you, though, this happened to me when I began the nav portion of the course. In the lesson, I felt humiliated, belittled, incapable (which was probably true) and utterly demoralised. When we had landed, the instructor told me that if I didn't pick up my flying abilities, then I would fail the skills test (which was a long way away, and which ultimately, I passed.)

I went home and thought about the same things you did, and felt like giving it all up. Why should a student (regardless of abilitly) be made to feel so bad after spending so much? Flying is meant to fun for God's sake, but that single lesson with that particualr instructor nearly finished me off.

After I had passed my PPL, I read through my student records, and couldn't believe what he'd written about me. Every other comment was positive, but his basically said, 'He has displayed the worst example of flying that I've ever seen in my life' - which is hardly a constructive critisism, and I'm sure that if I'd read it at the time, I would heve definitely given up.

I refused to fly with the above instructor, and although it was sometimes a bit tense when I would see him around, everything turned out better. (Incidentally, he was a very popular instructor, and his methods worked very well for other students, most notably young men in the teens - perhaps because they were still used to teachers shouting at them at school. )

The one thing that you've got to remember (which you probably already know) is that no instructor is ever alike. In the course of my PPL, I flew with ten different instructors and they all had a different teaching method. The instructor who I felt got the most out of me, was the one who was calm, collected and didn't shout or swear at me. (And it's ironic that out of all of these instructors, he is the only one flying jets as an airline pilot).

Don't give up. Change instructors or school. You have come too far now to throw it all away. Let us know what you decide to do.

Flock1

[Evo]

David - as others have said, try and keep going because you're so close now. I think we all have had days when you start to wonder why you are putting up with it all, I certainly did.

I'm not going to duplicate all that they've said, but one suggestion - go find someone with a PPL to take you flying to remind yourself why you are bothering with all this. Go off for a cuppa at a nice grass airfield, enjoy a still, clear summer evening from 4000 feet or do whatever takes your fancy, because that's what flying is about once you have your PPL. It's not about some @rse of an instructor slagging you because you still cannot do a good glide approach or you've b*ggered up PFLs again (guess what my problem areas were!), but with all the hassle of the PPL it's easy to forget that.

Good luck :ok:

[Keef]

DON'T GIVE UP! Stick with it, and you'll have the joy many of us do, of flying through the air with the greatest of ease, loving every minute of it.

Instructors are all different, as others have said, and the one who is good for one student is bad for another. I had some dreadful ones (and refused to fly with them again), and settled with one who was calm, relaxed, briefed before the flight and debriefed afterwards, explained what had happened versus what should have happened, and so on.

Sometimes he would say "You can do better than that. Now, what went wrong?" - and he knew and could explain it.

No coincidence that he's now flying P1 in 737s. Find the right guy, and stick with it!

[darko]

I don't know what attracted you to flying but we seem to have had a similar start.

I had a flying lesson as a 17th birthday pressie. Completely addicted and no money to continue, I never lost sight of how good that day felt. I can remember every second even today (a million years later!). Now in my thirties I finally have my coveted PPL.

My lasting regrets are not what I have done in my life, but those things I chose not to do. (Particularly my withdrawl from the donkey derby at Butlins, age 6 :D)
Look beyond this to the wonderful times airborne that lie ahead once you have gained your wings.

[flyingfemme]

We all (most of us) changed instructors at some point - a lot of us for reasons of chemistry or attitude. The older the student, the more discriminating we are as a customer; some flight schools have not grasped the customer service concept yet!
If you think there is an instructor at your current school that you might be successful with - pursue the "interview with the CFI" route and see what can be hammered out. If not, search for a school with a different attitude.
I found that I preferred to study with older, career instructors rather than hours-building wannabee jet-jocks. The instructor I now use for currency and brushup work is a model of calm and reason - he's not local to me but I deserve the best (and so do you).
You have come so far that it would be a shame to throw it all away when you are so close to the fun starting - once you have your PPL you can begin to pick and choose your flying company and where you go/what you do.
Take EVOs advice and go flying with somebody else for pleasure. I'm sure if you explore the forums there will be somebody in your neck of the woods who will help - we are a pretty friendly lot.

[Whirlybird]

I started to flying in 1997. Since then I've flown all over the UK, had a flying holiday in Ireland, flown in a helicopter to Paris. I've flown helicopters in California, doing low level stuff along the beaches and mountain flying at 10,000 ft. I've flown twin-engined helicopters and complex f/w aircraft in Russia. I've won a fairly prestigious flying competition, and most recently got a helicopter instructors rating...and I'm also preparing for a flying holiday in the Highlands and Islands in a couple of weeks. Sounds like I'm one of those insufferable "naturals" who always had it easy, doesn't it. Was it easy? LIKE BLOODY HELL IT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My first instructor left after I'd done 10 hours, recommending another guy who - to cut a very long story short - completely destroyed my confidence to the extent I felt sick and could barely drive to the airfield, let alone fly. I kept going, eventually changing instructors, and getting my PPL(A) after...90 hours. A fair proportion of it was spent just trying to calm down and forget what that instructor had said and done. I often thought I must be completely mad to carry on, because I wasn't enjoying it, and didn't really think I'd ever be any good anyway. Being a stubborn sod who hates giving up on things, I carried on regardless. Was it worth all the pain..to say nothing of the threat of imminent bankruptcy? Yes yes yes yes yes yes YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I started flying fairly late in life (and this lady doesn't give away her age on PPRuNe ;) . And I'm not exaggerating when I say it's changed my life. I've had an absolutely wonderful time, done loads of things I'd never have believed possible, and am now enjoying the prospect of starting a new career at an age when many of my friends are bored and waiting for retirement (actually I'm terrified, but that's another story). That PPL can lead to so much. You don't even realise it when you're stuck there trying to pass it.

You wrote that post, and obviously needed to, straight after that bad...I mean horrendous, and on the instructors part, unforgivable...experience. I suspect you may have had second thoughts by now anyway. If not...well, it's up to you, and I don't tell other people what to do with their lives. But it seems to me that it would be a real shame to give up on something you've wanted to do for half your life, when you're right on the threshold of doing it, because of the actions of a stupid b@stard who SHOULDN'T BE INSTRUCTING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!

Good luck whatever you decide, and believe me, I know JUST how you feel; you are not alone.

Whirly

[parris50]

It always amazes me that there seems to be so many instructors that seem unsuited to the job. I was lucky and the instructors I had (up to CPL/IR level) were calm, understanding and helpful.

A good instructor, or any kind of teacher, has to see things at least in part from the students point of view. Sure, some people react well to the kind of instructing that you have endured but I reckon the majority do not. Humilation of students is nearly always counter productive and it's my suspicion that this style of instruction is intended to let the student know how clever the instructor is. Doesn't work though does it?

I agree with everyone else so far. You are the customer and your abilities are much higher that you think. YOU pay the money - YOU take your choice.

Good luck - and let us all know when you pass.

[mad_jock]

It seems that more and more reports of instructors with the symptoms of burn out are occuring.

I could see it in myself so I left to do something else for a bit.

Unfortunatly until the airlines start hiring again there are going to be alot of Instructors out there sitting with 1000+ hours pissed off earning crap money, taking **** off the owner and not really enjoying the job anymore.

For your next instructor don't go for the highly experenced seen everything type get a low hour houred instructor that still enjoys turning up for work.

No student can learn if they feel ill at ease with the instructor. And the best cockpit atmosphere is that both people involved are enjoying the lesson. The instructor will be more alert to the students needs and more importantly the student will be more receptive to learn.

Stick in with it, just think next month after the test you will be off on your tod with passangers.

Good Luck

MJ

[flyingwysiwyg]

David,

You should also maybe remember that you also have the right as a human being to tell somebody exactly what you think! I have been really lucky with all my instructors and they were all extremely patient and quick to praise you. However if I was having an off day they would say, sometimes in no uncertain terms.

I understand exactly what your saying and I have had many a lesson with episodes something like the following:

Instructor: You've lost 350ft in the last minute! keep your eye on the altimeter

Me: I'm trying

Instructor: Watch your heading, your miles off, and add some more power before you start climbing

Me: Sh*t

Instructor: You've just sailed passed 2500 on your way to 3000. We should have levelled off at 2500, and watch your heading.

Me: This is p*ssing me off now

Instructor: Relax, stop trying to fight everything, you're like a bull in a china shop. Whats your estimate.

Me: Ummmmm, errrrrrrr, ummmmmmm

Instructor: Do you know where we are?

Me: Ummmmm, errrrrrr, ummmmmm Sh*t.

etc etc etc.......

This can all be extremely depressing, and I think we all go through it. Don't be frightened to say to said instructor that your not having a good day. If you feel he's really being unkind, tell him!

I agree with Mr Wolfie. Your next lesson might be the best you've ever had.

If its any consolation I don't feel particularly "receptive" when I know I could be doing something better and I've got somebody else telling me. I know, and its very easy to walk away............Its also a great feeling when it all comes together and you can tell your instructor to "put that in his pipe and smoke it"!

You've come too far just to throw the towel in. Buy your instructor a cup of tea. tell him how your feeling and why, and be prepared to take a bit of abject critisiscm on the chin. Maybe its also worth remembering that the more your instructor wants from you, the better your flying will be, and the easier you will find the test.

The very best of luck,

F - Wyg

[Pianorak]

Any chance of one of the moderators copying this item over to the Flying Instructors & Examiners forum?
If just one of those smug FIs (and I can think of one or two) mends his ways something will have been achieved. But don’t hold your breath.

[dublinpilot]

David,

I got my ppl last summer, and since then got checked out on a differnet airfcraft, and got my FAA PPL based on my JAA PPL, which involved getting a biannial flight review, and used it the opportunity to get checked out on another aircraft.

After the us trip, I came back home and for various reasons decided to get checked out on another "simple" (fixed gear and prop) airplane. Anyway I wound up with a different instructor, who critised just about everything I did, and really put me off.

I was confident in my abilities, and am a confident person, but all his nagging really did have a bad effect on my flying that day. Anyway I was determined not to let it affect me, and to sort it out the next day. The next day was no better, and after a few lessons with him, my confidence was really damaged. Damaged to the point that I could no longer fly properly at all. On about the 4th or 5th flight with him, in the debrefing he was really giving out to me and eventually said "I don't know why you can't do it! I don't know what's wrong with you! It's easy! Do you know why you can't do it?" That was about as much as I could take, and told him exactly why I couldn't fly with him. We agreed to part company, and I took my next flight with a instructor I'd flown with once before, and felt comfortable with.

I told me in outline only, what had happened with the other instructor. He told me to put behind me everything that had happened and to foget everything that the other guy had told me, and to just fly the airplane like I'd been thought. Low and behold, two perfect circuits and landing.

He looked around at me and said that there was absolutely nothing wrong with my flying other than the fact that someone had gone and ruined my confidence! We spend the rest of the lesson practicing emergency proceedures.....flapless and glide approaches etc, and I was signed off afterwards and haven't looked back.

I've had another checkout (new club) and a currency checkout since and had no problems.

I might have given up had I not already had my ppl, and knew how good it is to be free to fly on your own licence, and to be responsible for your own decisions, and not have to answer to some ignorant instructor!

If you are so close to your skills test you would be mad to give up now. You are too close to the best of flying; flying on your own licence.

As far as not knowing some of the answers go, don't worry too much about it. None of us know it all, we are always learning new things....just look at my met thread, to see that even someone with a ppl can still ask a stupid question :)

In any case when I did my skill test, the examiner asked me questions, some of which I didn't know that answers to, and some of which I felt I did, but the examiner pointed that there was more conditions etc than I'd said. I didn't matter. They don't expect you to know everything, just enough to be safe and competent. So don't worry too much about not knowing the answers.

But the one piece of advise I'll give you, is that if this instructor is ruining your confidence, don't make the mistake that I did. Can instructors straight away and don't try to pesevere with him. Confidence is easier lost than it is got, so don't ever let anyone take yours away. If the next lesson is going the same way, stop it early, and tell him you'd prefer to take your next lesson with someone else. It says more about him than it does about you.

dp

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Stick with it - no question. Flying, and your enjoyment of it, is far to important to be deflected by incompetent instruction.

Rise above it, and find a good guy (there are lots and lots about).

When I was learning, back in the late 1970s, I had a mixed bunch of instructors. Some were appalling, but because some were good (one or two were VERY good), I learn't to ignore the tossers and book future lessons with the right guys.

I found there was no pattern to the 'good guys'. Some of the good, and some of the appalling, were ex-service, doing it for love. Some of each were also low-experience youngsters on their way to an airline career.

When I look at how flying has been such a joy to me over the near quarter century I've been privaleged to do it (like today, formation flying with another Chippy and a Partenavia at Liverpool John Lennon to drop a fellow pilot's loved-one's ashes), I say again - stick with it.

SSD

[Whirlybird]

Flying instruction involves two very different skills: being a good pilot and dealing with people. A lnumber of instructors seem to have the flying skills but not the people skills. They really aren't emphasised that much on instructors courses, if mine was typical. Some seem not to like people at all.

I've had both good and bad instructors, and that applies to those with both low and high hours. Some low hours ones are fresh and enthusiastic, some just incompetent and inexperienced. Some high hours ones are very good and love the job, others are disillusioned and burned out.

But one thing is certain, as everyone has said; you have a right to find one you get on with, and not put up with any **** until you do.

[28thJuly2001]

I cannot understand why you are threatening to quit so close to the skills test just because your instructor says your knowledge is lacking. Ask another instructor to quiz you and if he says the same maybe your knowledge is lacking and you need to get the books out some more.

As you sure you are not just nervous about the skills test and looking for an excuse to quit. You can then go back to your family and say "I really wanted to fly all my life but this big bad instructor upset me just before my skills test and now I am going to quit".
You are 36 for gawds sake,
Fly with another instructor - no big deal.
Introduce yourself to all the staff and then make an effort to pass the time of day with them. Phone up before-hand to ensure the lesson is going ahead.

I was lucky in my training in that I had 2 instructors from start to finish and I got on really well with both of them but I wouldn't have gave it a second thought to "sack" one of them if they made me feel uncomfortable.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about not wanting it enough.
Quit now and I can guarantee you will regret it for the rest of your life.
Become a PPL and I can guarantee that you will feel a sense of achievement and you will bore everyone silly with the fact that you can fly a plane.
Don't let a tw*t of an instructor stop you....unless of course you ARE using this as an excuse to quit.

28th,,

[Sir George Cayley]

I've been saddened to read that so many students have had what should be an enjoyable experience spoiled by the personality in the rh seat. When one thinks how much lessons cost the level of customer care should be much higher.

One used to talk of Doctors "bedside manner" meaning that GP's were expected to display a caring sympathetic attitude to their patients. Maybe some of the instructor fraternity should take a leaf out of the history books and polish up their "cockpit manner"

I realise more and more that my experiences in the early 1970's were wonderful. The notion of an assigned instructor was not the norm in those days and you took pot luck.

I was taught by 5 different instructors , an ex Luftwaffe T33 jet jock a dour Irishman, an ex Farnborough test pilot a young chain smoking assistant FI from Bury anf the CFI who did a lot with hand signals. They all stuck to a clearly defined sylabus and the student quickly learned to glean the best from each.

Therefore for wild exuberant aeros go German, for a dose of caution on a marginal day head west to Ireland, to learn the tricks of the instrument flying trade Farnboro' and if you like a rough shag (pipe tobacco that is) the CFI would oblige by puffing away contentedly as you bashed the circuit

I know 30 years has probably made the memories rosier than they were but in essence I feel I was turned out as a well rounded new PPL as opposed to the clone of one person. (however good that instructor was)

BTW I note no complaints here about female instructors. They were a rare thing in my day but the ones I've flown with recently knock most of their male colleagues into a cocked hat.

If you are rubbing up badly against a particular "type" maybe thats the way to go.

Gaining a PPL is a worthwile thing and you'll feel a fantastic sense of achievement once it's yours. To all students who are suffering a dip in confidence I urge you to carry on- its worth it

Sir George Cayley

The air is a navigable ocean that laps at everyones door

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

the CFI who did a lot with hand signals.

I remember him. He was one of the VERY good ones, and I am thankful he was still instructing in '78 when I was doing my PPL (he is now, sadly, long dead). A man of few words but superb technique. Up-a-bit was a flat and stiff horizontal hand executing an upward 'batting' gesture; the reverse for descending. Turns were the same, but the hand was held 'nose to tail' and batted either left or right. Lower flaps was the horizontal hand again, but a 'beak' made between thumb and forefinger, openeing and closing.

I beleive this came from his RAF instructing days on Noisy biplanes (I know he flew Wappities in the '30s RAF) with no RT.

One day, a student offered him a lift home from the club. He got into the car, and instead of "straight to the next junction, then left", it was those hand signals again!

These guys were the real characters of aviation, and are sadly missed. I feel privaleged to have flown with a few of them, including CR.

SSD

PS

Agree with Sir George about the muliplicity of instructors we had back then. Probably not as 'efficient' as the system employed today, but I loved it, and I think I gained from having so many techniques to learn from. It meant that the student had to be pro-active in guiding their own training or you'd end up doing the same lesson 3 times over. But it probably raised a more self sufficient generation of PPLs than we see today (OK, massive generalisaton, but I think the principle stands).

SSD

[Penguina]

Dave, are you going to reply? This lot seem to be unanimous!

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi David,

I think you could do worse than to get an assessment with someone fresh, from outside your normal airfield/school.

A few people are around (Irv Lee at Popham and Derek Davidson [sp?] ) spring to mind. I have no experience with either but their names have popped up here and on other forums when similar situations have arisen.

If you are that close to the skills test they should be able, in a relatively short time, to see if you are able to cut the mustard, and where (if any) you have any weaknesses.

Nothing worse than a crappy instructor spoiling your day and to leave now would be very frustrating to you for a very long time.

Unfortunately not all those with an instructor's ticket are gifted with an awful lot of teaching talent and patient but you have to guard yourself from being a victim of that.

To be a good pilot you have to possess a modicum of assertiveness, commitment and perseverance. Surely attributes you have as you have come such a long way already, let these qualities help you to achieve your goal!

Have fun in pursuing your ambition, remember the sky is the limit!

FD

[david.porter9]

Many thanks for all the replies and words of encouragement. I've calmed down a bit now, and reading all the replies has helped put things in better perspective. It is however worrying that my experience seems to be far from unusual.

28thJuly2001

I was actually looking forward to my skills test, as I'm one of those strange types that enjoys exam situations. Also I did not threaten to quit 'just because (my) instructor says (my)knowledge is lacking'. I did not lose it because I couldn't answer the questions. This was an exercise in humiliation.

'Quit now and I can guarantee you will regret it for the rest of your life.' Maybe, but I don't think so. In the past I've been a stubborn b*****d and refused to give up trying to achieve particular goals, because I had to prove to myself that I could do whatever it was that I was trying to do. This was due to a lack of confidence in my early years. Now I'm older I no longer need to prove these things to myself. I simply do the things I want to do because I want to do them, not to prove anything. In the past I have persevered with things way beyond the point of reason, where any sensible person would have given up long before. And I did what I was trying to do. But when I looked back, I realised my mistake. So, because of my previous form, I try not to blindly follow the advice which you (and others outside of pprune) have given. However I understand the sentiment behind it, and that it is given with the best of intentions. Thanks.

I also agree with the rest of your comments. I am after all a big boy now. When I wrote the original post I was extremely angry and maybe I should have waited 24 hours before posting. But if I had waited until I had calmed down then I may not have posted at all.

Anyway, I think I will spend a couple of days thinking about something other than flying (mrs dave will be pleased!), and then come back to it and see how I feel.

Once again many thanks for all your replies.

Dave.

2nd post below

I have realised that I've become so caught up in the training that I've almost forgotten why I'm doing it. And I can't actually remember the last time I took a second to look at the view on my lessons. Maybe I should have asked my instructor to take control for a minute or two when recovering to the field, and just sat there and stared out the window.

I also recognise that, when considering the potential lifetime of flying ahead of me, the training period is relatively short in comparison (yeah I know it's a licence to learn, but you know what I mean). So it'd be stupid to jack it in now, right?

So, when I said about a couple of days NOT thinking about flying, I meant starting tomorrow...

Dave.

[28thJuly2001]

David,
Maybe I was a little harsh with my comments but I STILL cannot understand why you would come so far and then want to chuck it all away.
YOU WILL REGRET IT.
I think you need to sit back and think about why you want to be a PPL. If you let a 'little thing' like an ar$y instructor get in your way of your dreams then maybe you don't want it enough.
I still can't get the thought out of my head that there is another reason for you threatening to quit and this episode was just another nail in the coffin.
We all get bad days but once you have your licence and get to fly over the snow capped Brecon Beacons, watch the red arrows practice while you pre-flight, see 2 Hercules fly past, get chased by a Tornado, orbit while a 747 comes in to land, have your wife congratulate you on a perfect greaser etc.etc.......aahhhhhhh....wouldn't change it for the world.
28th,,

[j0_ey]

I agree David, have a few days to think about other things (If that's possible) I too had a few problems with my instructor but I still put that down to adolescent mood swings :p

The PPL will open up a new world for you...

[david.porter9]

28th

You are right. Maybe I don't want it enough. If I wanted it enough, then I'd do it. And I can see why you think there may be another reason behind it, because it doesn't sound logical to give up because of one bad experience, does it?

I think I may have over-reacted during my initial dummy spit. But as I left the field after the event I just wanted to forget all about flying. I was thinking about all the money I've spent only to get treated like an idiot. And all the other things I could have spent it on, which would have made me feel a damn sight better than I did then! So the idea of giving up seemed perfectly reasonable.

I still feel that way to some extent, although I can also see that it looks stupid to give up at the last hurdle.

I've had a few moments like the ones you describe, although mostly as a pax. Maybe I should think about those moments to start the positive thoughts going again. Not sure I'd want to get chased by a Tornado though!

Dave

[Say again s l o w l y]

Dave,

Speaking as an instructor, for god's sake don't chuck it in now. We all have bad days (FI's included!) Try not to worry too much about someone giving you a hard time just before your test. Sometimes it's a technique we use to make sure people don't get complacent. If he's like it all the time, bin him and get another, there are plenty about at the moment!!

An instructors job is to turn Bloggs into a safe and competent pilot, Sometimes it means getting a bit nasty. This is especially true with students who turn up repeatedly without having done any pre-reading or thinking. (I'm not for a moment suggesting that's you though.) Often you are working harder than the person who's paying!!

I can promise you that if you don't continue, in time it will become an annoyance. I have had numerous students who have done this, only to return a few years later and have to start over again.

Flying IS supposed to fun and generally it is, but sometimes it will scare the cr*p out of you. Does this mean you never do it again? I would have stopped after my first teaching trip if that was the case!:rolleyes:

Take a couple of days off, relax and maybe if you fancy, hire another instructor and just go for a jolly.

Which area are you currently flying from? Don't get too specific.

If you want an FI to chat to about it, just PM me. Believe me in that unfortunately this happens far too often.:*

[WestWind1950]

good morning Dave,

I had a student once that had been doing lots of t & g's with his instructor, doing the usual excercises near by, etc. His instructor couldn't keep an appointment one day so they asked if I could jump in. I checked what the student had done so far and noticed during our pre-chat that he seemed to be a bit frustrated. So, on a whim, I decided to just do a fun XC with him, visiting my former home base. It was beautiful weather, I didn't even bother to make him do the planning (I already had that), I just let him do the flying and look at the scenery. He loved it! He came back motivated again and kept reminding me later how much he enjoyed our flight! *westypatsherselfontheback* He has his ppl in the meantime.... :ok:

Maybe that's what you need... a nice "just-for-fun" training flight! good luck!!


http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[Whirlybird]

Westy said it before I could, but then, she's been instructing for a lot longer. I disagree with 28th. We all have days when we want to jack it in, and wonder why we ever started. And if you leave the airfield feeling that way, it can last. I felt like that at various times during my PPL, definitely during my CPL, and most especially during and soon after my instructors course!!!!! I honestly wondered if doing that had put me off flying for ever. But all if took was getting up there with a student to realise just how much FUN it was and always had been and always would be. So go up there for a fun flight, look at the view, and remind yourself of what the rest of your life could be like.

[IO540]

david.porter9

I am getting into this thread late but I would suggest you change schools (if you can) or just change an instructor (if you have no choice of schools).

The first 2 or 3 instructors I flew with either treated me like an idiot (e.g. would not explain why a certain checklist item is there) or were overly aggressive, and I moved on. It does appear to waste money (and it does in the short term) but there are as many bad instructors as there are good ones so it's a lottery.

The other thing is that different types of people need to be taught in different ways, and a particular instructor might get on with one type and not another. I know one instructor who regularly says "well that was a f****ing c**p bit of flying" which is OK if you are an aggressive male and all your mates down the pub talk to you the same way, but not if you are more average. But he does it with everybody, including the women.

I believe most instructors, even most of the good ones, are not able to determine how they should modify their style to suit different people. Those that can are great - and to everyone's envy they get all the female students too :O

[WestWind1950]

Good morning Whirly,

I'm 2 hours ahead of you over here on the continent! :D (or do you have daylight-savings time, too? then it's only one hour...)


http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-085.gif Westy

[In Altissimus]

david.porter9

Mate - if you are at what I think is the geographically closest 'flying school' to where you live, then my advice is to get out now .

I did - and I've never regretted it.

PM me if you want to discuss.

Today I flew back from Mona (Anglesey) to London in just over 2 hours - beats driving! :D :D :D

[Monocock]

Without wishing to antagonise the flamers amongst you all, if he has decided to quit then let him quit.

Although there has been a lot of sense entered into this thread by many people, David is clearly unsure about whether he wishes to continue learning.

If it is purely a clash of personality with an instructor then he will change instructors (IF HE REALLY WANTS TO CONTINUE WITH IT). And if he REALLY wants to continue he will change instructors ten times if needs be to achieve the final goal.

No offense David but the decision is black and white. Whirlybirds advice was spot on........there are good days and there are bad days. If you have 3 bad days in a row you forget about the good days and what they feel like.

I would suggest you get back in the seat for one more hour and go for it. If it is still hellish tell the instructor to be honest with you. He might even say you aren't up to it, he might say you'll be qualified in a month. Unless you ask you won't know.

Sorry to be blunt but that's moi!



:}

[The mole]

Most of the time you can see when a student is getting fed up with you. Time to sit back,fly somewhere interesting locally (even just fly the student somewhere yourself) and remind yourselves that flying is fun. Very, very occassionally I will raise my voice or change my laid back attitude. The ONLY time to do this is to reinforce a point that the student has done something unsafe. So unsafe it could kill you. That is the only time at which you want the student to remember having a bad time in the aircraft. Maybe David is truly cr@p and dangerous, but I think someone would have noticed by now. I am sure most instructors have had to tell someone that they will never fly solo. Then again maybe not.
Another point is that as you get older you learn less quickly. Young instructors don't realise this. When I was 19 I soloed in 8 hours and gained my PPL in 17 (yes 17) flying days. Some of my older students have taken 30 hours to solo, not coz they are crap, but because they are 55 years old and only turn up to fly once a week - and not coz I am a cr@p instructor. Then again maybe I am.
David, if you want to fly then take a break and come back to another school and another instructor, and remember why you wanted to do it in the first place.

[Dewdrop]

There are some truly awful instructors out there, people who are doing the job purely to rack up the hours and S@d the student. I know exactly how you feel Peter. Go talk to the CFI or club owner, don't let this guy off the hook ! He is paid to do aquality proffessional job, not to intimidate or threaten.

[InTheAir]

I've heard some pretty ugly stories regarding bad FI's etc but this has got to be the worst. I subscribe to the opinion that the younger you are the more you will bow down to agressive teaching styles. I took some flack during training but in the end heared some of the most increbile praise ever.

However, flying in the UK is still a world class con, and too restrictive.

Hope you change your mind!

[david.porter9]

In Altissimus, Oli and Say Again Slowly,

I have PM'd you.

Dave.

[david.porter9]

Right, I am now thinking like an (almost) rational person and I realise that my initial reaction was a bit OTT. So after two days scraping paint off my garage floor and trying not to think about flying, I have decided to continue. Here, then, is my plan:

1) Do some solo circuits or a solo navex just to get back in the plane and remind myself that it's fun, as suggested by Whirly, Westwind and others. (Whirly, I loved your line 'So go up there for a fun flight, look at the view, and remind yourself of what the rest of your life could be like.)

2) Book some lessons with a different instructor to get me fully up to speed and ready.

3) Take, and hopefully pass, the rt test and skills test.

4) Go fly!

I think one or two people mentioned earlier that I should take the problem to the CFI. Unfortunately he is the CFI. He is also the examiner for the rt and skills test. So if there are further problems with him then I will have a quiet chat about life with him, and if this does not resolve the situation then I will change schools and take the skills test some place else.

Thanks for all the replies, they have really made a difference. To be honest I thought there would be a lot more people telling me to pull myself together, etc. Unfortunately it seems to be a far from unusual experience and many of you have been there before me, some of you on numerous occasions it seems. That just cannot be right, can it? Oh well, guess I'd better stop now before I go off on one again.

Cheers for now,

Dave.

[Evo]

5) Fly yourself to the next PPRuNe fly-in :)

Good luck :ok:

[JimNich]

David,

Ultimately the choice to continue will be yours and yours alone but bear this in mind:

1) Decide how you are likely to feel about this in five years time. If you think you will regret not continuing then heed the advice on this forum and find a way round your problem. If you decide your feelings toward aviation will be the same as when you wanted to give up, then perhaps you should kick it into touch.

2) Generally instructors believe themselves to be better than they are because they spend their life flying with novices. The really good ones do not change their style from student to student because they don't have to, they are universally good (there is one particular QFI at my workplace who personifys this, he is the same with every student he trains and always gets excellent results). Something I strive to attain but in reality know is beyond me. Still, no harm in trying.

3) Don't be scared to vent steam, I've had some right bollockings off students and every one of them was justified. What really annoys me is when I screw up (of course I do, just like everyone else) and the student has complained behind my back. You may be surprised that sometimes confrontation works!

4) No-one knows it all, if you think your instructor has given you duff gen then question him. There are NO stupid questions in aviation, only smug answers.

David, feel free to heed or ignore any or all of this advice. However, as an instructor I would be grateful for more information on your personal experience. If I can avoid inflicting on others the kind of experience you have gone through then something positive will have come out of it. Please PM if you have the time.

Regards and good luck with whatever you decide.

Jim Nicholas:ok:

[Bluebeard2]

Dave

I've been through something pretty similar to you, I took nigh on 6 months to think it through but sorted myself out (including swapping schools), got back in the saddle, and was the proud owner of a PPL 9 months later! Best decision I ever took.:D

Oh, and the worst navex of my life was my Skills Test rehearsal, it all went totally pear shaped after the first turning point and went downhill from thereon in. Bore no resemblance to the actual test which ran like clockwork!

Sounds like you've got a decent plan there - let us all know when you've passed!:ok:

[WestWind1950]

@Dave

your plan sound good... keep us informed!!! :ok:

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-072.gif Westy

[MLS-12D]

Reading David's posts, I am of two minds:

(1) I too have had two or three bad experiences with "instructors" who misconceived their role and wished to play "examiners" ... a semi-adversarial position that does not make for effective learning.

(2) On the other hand, it sounds as though this 3rd instructor was specifically asked to ensure that David was ready for his skills test; so I don't think that he can be blamed for coming on a bit strong and asking some difficult questions. Most decent flying schools give a pretty gruelling mock exam, on the theory that if the student can muddle his way through that, he should have no difficulty on the real thing. Of course, this does not justify asking all sorts of irrelvant questions about obscure trivia that the student can't reasonably be expected to know, or demanding answers in a sneering, contemputous manner (not sure whether either of those problems arose here).

I was thinking about all the money I've spent only to get treated like an idiot. And all the other things I could have spent it on, which would have made me feel a damn sight better than I did then! So the idea of giving up seemed perfectly reasonable. I still feel that way to some extent, although I can also see that it looks stupid to give up at the last hurdle.I agree with Monocock: only David can decide whether he wants to continue, without consideration to such issues of being a 'quitter', etc. Flying is NOT for everyone, and a fair amount of sacrifices (financial, time, etc.) are required (post-license included). If one is truly hooked, than these irritants are minor; but no one should fault David if he ultimately decides "I don't need this, I'd get more fun playing golf".

I don't think that it would be stupid to give up at the last hurdle, IF David honestly feels that flying is not for him. He shouldn't be influenced by others' opinions, or by all the time and money that he has already sunk in (that's all water under the bridge, and there's no sense falling into a 'previous investment trap'; see further Harry Browne's freedom principles (http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/ffp05.shtml)). David, think about what you want in the future, and act accordingly.

[niknak]

Dave,
Dont give up, and more importantly, don't put up with such crap.
Instructors like this are all too common in the UK, and for the most part they are egotisical cowards who are fond of their own voice, and are not worthy of the profession they purport to represent. You'll probably find that the people you've been unfortunate enough to be involved with are part timers, or old farts, who are only interested in keeping their licence up for minimal or no flying pay, you'd probably find they'd change their attitudes if you put them up against the wall and gave them a good twatting (an unorthodox yet proven solution).

Go somewhere else and realise your ambitions, it may cost you a bit more, but it'll be well worth it for your own satisfaction and self esteem.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Errr, I think that's enough of the general instructor bashing thank you very much.
I have worked in numerous schools around the country, doing all sorts of teaching, from ab-initio PPL to IR and have to say that the VAST majority of instructor are a pleasure to be associated with.
There are the odd few who can be as blunt as a blunt thing, but they are relatively few in number.

Occasionally people clash, but it is fairly rare. (only happened to me once, and I changed the student to a different instructor as I didn't think I was getting through to them well enough.)

Instructing can be a fantastic job, but it can also be terrifying, frustrating and downright dangerous on occasion.

Oh and Niknak, I'm now a 'part-timer' and I can promise you that I'm not an egotistical coward. Just hope I don't do your next revalidation check........:E

[In Altissimus]

Just to clarify things a little...

The problems David are encountering are not so much with one particular instructor, as with the whole 'school' and the 'character' who runs/owns it - and is also the examiner there.

He is not the first person to have issues at that place - and I am speaking from personal experience.

As I said privately to David, I was advised to take action - but I just wanted to forget about it frankly.

When we have a system which allows the owner, CFI, and examiner to be one and the same person, I'm afraid that this kind of situation is bound to occur from time to time.

[Whirlybird]

In Altissimus,

It would be really useful for people to know about schools like that, in advance. Can you name it? Or give us a broad hint? Or pm me, as sometimes people tend to ask me about specific schools.

Many thanks,

Whirly

[dublinpilot]

I don't think that the school should be named here, now, because if someone from there reads this thread, it is only likely to make David's time there more difficult, if they recognise him.

By all means do name it in another thread in a few weeks, when the connection can no longer be made.

[Seat Of My Pants]

I think we all have a pretty good idea of which 'geographically nearest' club we're talking about so no need to name names.

but

David:
The 'character' concerned may well be the CFI, owner, examiner, etc...
However, I believe that he is not the ONLY examiner there - chalk and cheese spring to mind.

You have options ...

Good luck

S.O.M.P.

[david.porter9]

Before anybody names names could I point out I would still like to complete my training at this school if at all possible. Also one or two people have jumped to conclusions which are, in fact, incorrect.

Dave.

[UL730]

David:

I've been where you are - looked into the abyss. Got severe TLC ( total loss of confidence ). I didn't stop and climbed the greasy pole. Lots of encouragement from the family. "If you give up now - don't bother coming home after the money you've spent" Reached the apex of private flying. Watched glorious sunrises emerge after breaking through 10000' of solid clag. Got really choked up looking at the Northern Lights, flying out of Bergen, listening to Thunderclap Newman coming thru the ADF. Seen the inside of a big CB over the North Sea at night, in an airway - all on my ownsome. Shutdown duff engines, tussled with engineers over C of A flight tests, several renewals with all sorts of examiners from grads of ETPS to 16000 hour seen it all - done it all types. All with their own idiosyncrasies. I tell you this all pails into insignificance if you consider your alternative.

GOLF

This activity will truly drive you to total despair. Keep flying - it's easier and if you want a bit of "ferapy" buy yourself Top Gun and play the "Mav's re- engaging" sequence a couple of times

You will feel better in a few months and remember - you are the guy with the wedge. You do have control and the future's bright.

[david.porter9]

You're right about golf. I've got a style all of my own. :)

[niknak]

Say again Slowly
Humble apologies to you and other part timers with genuine desires to do the right thing, I didnt mean that all instructers such as yerself are in the bracket that Dave's encountered - far from it, I know that you work hard and make a very valuable contribution.

Perhaps I should brush up on my diplomatic skills, now then where did I put Alister Campbells 'phone number................