MATZ Crossings

[Speedbird252]

ahem, here goes.

Did a solo navex recently and as usual had a fantastic service from Farnborough Radar, although got a tad puzzled by it at one point..

After changing to 125.25 called for a FIS and MATZ crossing, got the FIS no problem. Was asked to report at my first turning point (whitchurch on route to Guildford), which I did.

Was at that point given MATZ crossing approval (which was to take me overhead Odiham and south abeam Farnborough) so I was reasonabily chuffed id got this far! Had numerous advisories of traffic as I passed close to a very busy Lasham, which was a lesson in itself, and possibly another thread.

Was bang on course to fly overhead Odiham, and bang on track to Guildford when I was advised by Farnborough that "G-AB you are getting close to the Odiham ATZ which you need to avoid because of glider flying"

I almost went into "Threvor Thom Book 2 what have I forgot mode" and turned away from the ATZ which was under my nose and made a relatively meager attemp at going around it, without knowing why - I guess I could have queried it but as a student solo navex just wanted to do the basics and not make an ar$e of myself (and the sky is full of gliders from Lasham up the road..so I was busy enough)

As vague as this may sound, I got the impression that the MATZ crossing clearance, based on my route would have allowed me to fly straight over the top of Odiham at 2300ft which I was at (bearing in mind the Londan TMA lowers to 2500 shortly after) - was I correct to think this? I didnt here a "but stay clear of the Odiham ATZ" in the call, I didnt see it in the NOTAMS?

I just wanna know if I overlooked something, or have misunderstood something. It is a bit trivial maybe, next up is my dual qualifier and id like to understand if I have got something wrong, or just plain didnt understand the instruction.

Hats of to the female LARS controller, it was busy and she looked after me well!

Regards to you all...

Speedy:ok:

[Umtali]

Hi!

Odiham is quite high so as their ATZ extends to 2000ft above ground level it's to an altitude if 2405ft. The MATZ and ATZ are treated seperatly. If it was a weekend ATC at Odiham may not have been there but there is still activity in the ATZ and so we tend not to give a clearance through as we don't know how many gliders are there and how high they are operating so suggest to pilots that they avoid it either by flying around or over the top although this does not mean you won't find a gilder, just less of them! On week days we have a better idea what is happening at Odiham and they can release the ATZ to Farnborough to clear aircraft through which we often need when using the 06 ILS or can give us individual crossings. The MATZ however we can give crossings without reference to Odiham, we just co-ordinate traffic when needed.

I hope that helps a little?

Also, I suggest you don't enter an ATZ if you haven't got a clearance through (some ATZ's are H24 even if there is no activity at the field) . Regularly aircraft plough through the Farnborough ATZ without permission and IFR ins and outs are delayed. LARS is open 8am to 8pm local but the airfield operates outside those hours. I suggest checking with the airfield's Approach or Tower frequency first who ever it may be.

[Another_CFI]

Speedbird252, As an instructor/examiner I am amazed that you were caught out by considering flying through the Odiham ATZ at an altitude of 2300 feet. I am not blaming you, as I would not expect you as a student to necessarily have picked up on the fact that Odiham has an airfield elevation of 405 feet AMSL, since there is so much information to be extracted from the chart that it is easy to overlook some detail.

However I would have expected your instructor, whilst briefing you for the flight, to have ensured that you either planned to fly high enough to be above the Odiham ATZ or to plan to miss the ATZ completely. Whilst any altitude above 2405 feet keeps you out of the Odiham ATZ there is a further gotcha at Odiham – they wire tow to 3000 feet AMSL! Perhaps a better option would have been to plan Whitchurch-Farnborough-Guildford. This would have overcome the problems with the Odiham ATZ, kept you further away from the gliders at Lasham and since you were talking to Farnborough they could have provided clearance through their ATZ, if required, whilst ensuring that you did not conflict with their inbound/outbound traffic.

[Evo]

Another_CFI

Speedbird252 also had Whitchurch - Hook VRP - Guildford planned (and no, I'm not his instructor :) ) and was expecting to use that routing if told that Odiham was busy. Having told Farnborough Radar that his route would take him through the Odiham ATZ, the subsequent clearance to enter the MATZ didn't say that he couldn't use his intended route - and it's easy to think of that as an implicit clearance through the ATZ. Umtali has explained the issues here - and thanks, it has cleared it up for me too... :ok:

I did the very same navex during my training, and Farnborough directed me around Odiham because it was busy. That was midweek. However, I have always assumed that Farnborough 'owned' the Odiham ATZ, and (now as a PPL) I would have done the same thing that Speedbird252 did - so I guess you can be amazed at me :uhoh:

[rustle]

I would have done the same thing that Speedbird252 did - so I guess you can be amazed at me

Amazed, no.

But it does help explain the "Solent Issue" ;)

[Another_CFI]

EVO, Its not Speedbird252 that I am amazed at, he did the correct thing and avoided the ATZ - it's his instructor. The instructor should have briefed Speedbird that permission to cross a MATZ does not imply clearance to penetrate the embedded ATZ. I would also have expected any locally (to Odiham) based instructor to be aware that gliding and motor-gliding takes place at Odiham at weekends.

[Speedbird252]

Evening, thanks for your comments so far, interesting stuff.

Another_CFI you are indeed correct, I didnt realise that Odiham is 405 amsl (but ive learnt from that, this was my first MATZ crossing, and ill be sure to pay a closer look next time).

As Umtali has pointed out, the MATZ and the ATZ are treated seperately, but the very fact that ATZ is an integral part of MATZ is possibly why I didnt realise that being in receipt of a MATZ crossing clearance didnt necessarily mean that I could cross the ATZ at my planned altitude.

I did do a swift heading change and that did take me to the south of the field, although maybe not clear of the ATZ entirely.

Evo - It was your advice that made me plan an alternative route to Guildford (ta) in the event that the MATZ crossing was refused, again the fact that is wasnt may have made me overlook the fact that my heading and altitude were inappropriate for crossing the Odiham ATZ. I too thought that Farnborough owned the Odiham MATZ, we live and we learn.....although i may stay further away from Lasham next time. :O

Thanks again.

Speedy:ok: