Will groups look at new PPLs?

[Pianorak]

I know it's far too early to even think about. But hey I am on a high. Having just passed the Aviation Law exam and with 8 flying lessons under my belt the sky is the limit right now.
I am wondering what the situation is as regards groups willing to accept new PPLs as shareholders. Some ads seem to stipulate a minimum of 100 hours which admittedly sounds only fair. Or is the only option to build hours through club flying?

[Lowtimer]

Some groups, especially for complex or demanding types, do require certain levels of experience. But the picture is not as bleak as it might appear for newly qualified PPLs. In my experience of talking to groups, people find the general attitude, airmanship and demonstrated skills of the applicant more significant than arbitrary numbers of hours. It is true that one must be insurable. As with car insurance there may be an increased premium and / or excess for a newly qualified pilot. And for a type you have not flown before, you will obviously have to undergo appropriate training, including differences training where needed. But many things are possible. I bought into a Yak syndicate when I had only about 85 hours, did ten hours of very tough dual conversion training before first solo (and have done more since...). I had very large excess on the insurance for the first 25 hours on type, whereupon it reverted to standard. Ask around... if you want to join a syndicate and you're a few hours short, talk to them anyway, if the other members like the cut of your jib, or you come well recommended by an instructor they know and trust, they might make an exception for you, and reach some sort of deal with the insurer.

[High Wing Drifter]

Group shares are not selling well at the moment, hence there are plenty of groups willing to accept newly qualified pilots, even in complex types! Just be prepared to pay more for insurance and have an insurance excess of about a grand.

Of course, budget for 2-5 hours of conversion time too.

Good luck in your search.

[QNH 1013]

It all depends on the group. We've even had members in our group who hadn't completed their PPL and many who have joined shortly after getting PPLs. Typically, the insurance company wants a conversion signed off by an instructor, and sometimes an extra premium is payable by the new member as a one-off. There has never been any extra to pay by the time the insurance is renewed. I don't recall them ever increasing the excess for a new member. Our newest member should complete his licence in the next few weeks.
I've certainly not noticed any slow-down in the sale of group shares in the North Midlands. Things may be different in the South.

[singaporegirl]

I joined a group recently with only about 16 hours' P1. It was the same type of aircraft I did most of my training on. The insurers have required an extra £250 excess (ie £750 instead of £500) until I reach 100 hours' P1, but the premium is no higher.

[Pianorak]

Thanks for all the replies. So there is obviously hope. I am surprised to see GNH saying that group membership might even be possible for those who haven't even got their PPL yet. However, I'd better concentrate on getting the exams out of the way and polish up my circus - sorry, circuit - act! :O

[Kolibear]

Our group is more than happy to take recently qualified PPLs - the only stipulations are 50hours PIC and subject to a conversion course, which takes 3-5 hours.

[Evo]

Um... Kolibear, "recently qualified PPLs" and "50hours PIC"...? Where did you do your PPL :confused: :)

[buzzc152]

As others have said, depends on the plane. You might hae trouble getting insured on an arrow for example. However, you shouldn't have any problems. My group flys a very good C150. We have 2 members who haven't passed their PPL yet.

I think group ownership really is the way to go.
Drop me a line when you've got you PPL, I know of a few shares coming up later in the year that might suit you nicely.

[Pianorak]

Again many thanks for the encouraging responses. Shall certainly get in touch with you, buzzc152, once I have managed to get hold of the PPL. But whether that will be “later in the year” – hmmm, fingers firmly crossed. Whatever the case, the mere possibility that rookie status may not necessarily be a bar to joining a group is a strong incentive to move ahead.

[IO540-C4D5D]

Fred R

It's a great idea to get into a syndicate (a group share) ASAP because if you fly any reasonable number of hours, it will make flying a lot cheaper than self fly hire.

The plane must be on a Public (not Private) Transport CofA if it is to be used for any training for the initial award of a License or a Rating. Be careful with this since a share will be happily offered for sale to you without anyone telling you this (often shares become available because the group is trying hard to get shot of a troublesome member) and then you find you cannot do the IMC Rating in the plane, for example...

Insurance problems will depend on the plane but I found that the insurer wants just a valid type conversion (actually it is called "differences training" unless you are converting to a turboprop or a jet, in general) and you are likely to have say 10 hours on the type by the time you have finished doing that. There is generally no discount until you reach some 500 hours...

[Pianorak]

Thanks IO540 for your response. It seems the road to group membership has its pitfalls (Buyer beware and all that). As to insurance: Are we talking here cover for the aircraft, third party liability as well as life cover?. Having an aversion to all insurance companies (and being single) I wouldn't dream of taking out life cover for myself (unless it's compulsory).
Could a PPL student and syndicate/group member actually take off with just another PPL aviator or would it have to be a qualified FI? And how would "hour building" come into the picture?
:confused:

[IO540-C4D5D]

If you buy into a group, it is the group (and not you personally) who will pay the insurance. Their insurer will stipulate the minimum pilot requirements, which could be just a fresh PPL for a C150, or min 100 hrs P1 if it is a £200k complex retractable! You've got to meet that requirement.

Your personal life insurance is an entirely separate matter, and as you say if you have no dependents then it would be a waste of money. Normally there is no loading if you say you plan to fly less than 50hrs/year, and there are some life insurance brokers advertising in the aviation press who claim to have done special deals with some mainstream insurers and take this to about 100hrs/year.

Yes you've got to be very careful about the group you are buying into. I am an owner now but looked at several groups on the way, and all the shares for sale were those of "unwanted" members, and in every case I recall there was a long running dispute regarding maintenance. Not legal maintenance (which has to get done anyway) but repairs on stuff which is needed perhaps for IFR flight only. If you want a plane which is IFR legal, and all the other members only fly VFR, you can end up with a useless share which you then need to offload, preferably without the buyer discovering the genuine reason for you selling. A LOT of things can pack up on a plane and it will still be "VFR legal" and you might not like flying a plane that's falling apart even on nice days - I did my training in planes like that.

So... identify the sort of flying you want to do, whether you want to do any additional training, and check out the group by speaking to its members individually (personally or on the phone) and by speaking, discreetly, to the service organisation maintaining the plane to see if there are disputes re outstanding repairs. If the members are unfriendly or difficult or you get a bad feeling about it, drop the idea and look at another group.

Another way is to form a group with a few people you know. It's pretty easy. Any street corner accountant will set up a limited company with you all as shareholders/directors, and then you just go out and buy a plane :O Make sure a specific person is responsible for maintenance and admin etc.

[bookworm]

As a group member, I'm far more interested in the attitude of someone wanting to join the group than in their experience. The latter improves naturally with time, the former tends to be more of a permanent feature.

[vancouv]

If you're a student I don't think you can fly without an FI. He doesn't have to be in the plane with you, of course, but even if he sends you solo you are actually flying under the priviliges of his license.

Also I don't believe a student can take passengers, and if the guy with a PPL is in the right hand seat then that's what he is.

And even if you could fly with just a PPL, he would have to log it as P1 so you wouldn't be able to log it at all, which I guess would defeat the object.

Not 100% sure if this is right, I'm sure someone will correct me if not.....

[Pianorak]

Vancouv Thanks for your input. I have been able to sort out those issues with my FI.
IO540 I had in fact been thinking on the lines of outright "ownership". Second-hand planes seem relatively inexpensive. But having a look at the maintenance charges (just the "legal" ones) did give me a slight "turn" - to which must be added unexpected expenditure which seems to call for blank cheques galore. Hmmm.
The other option, forming my own group, might be more realistic. I am mates with a couple of my fellow students so that is another avenue to be explored. But as bookworm so rightly says in the end it's attitude which is paramount.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I started my private flying in a group, and benefitted from the experience of other people around me (mind you, I think some others probably also benefited from having somebody around who'd done their PPL recently enough that they could still remember what was in the exams). That's just a caution that setting up with other recently qualified students you might find that collectively you need to look for guidance outside sometimes.

For either sole ownership, or if you are looking to set up a new group, do consider some of the smaller PFA types. There are some nice machines there, which (particularly if you don't mind putting some work in yourselves) will save you a fortune compared to a CofA aircraft. You can't be instructed on a group-owned permit (PFA) aeroplane, but that's the only real limitation (apart from being limited to day-VMC which doesn't worry many PPLs) and it also allows access to PFA's coaching scheme for checkouts and BFRs.

G

[High Wing Drifter]

Before anybody moves down the PFA route, they should ensure thay understand the impending changes, due in September, for the new EASA regulations. These replace the current JAA guidelines and, I believe, negatively effect PFAs (to some not clearly understood degree by me).

Then there is that mandatory 68m Euro (I assume it is Euros!) insurance liability...but that is another battle.

[Monocock]

I have flown with some recently qualified PPL's who have demonstrated far more aptitude and airmanship than other pilots with 1000 hrs+.

Although a good check-out should be made to prove the new pilots capabilities I think it is just as important that personalities don't clash in the group.

One question, why are there so many unfulfilled groups out there? Is it the economy, lack of new pilots, more people buying on their own or just too many planes out there now?

To summarise, if I was in a group I would have no reservations whatsoever to a new PPL entering as long as we got along well and he could handle the plane competently.

:cool:

[vancouv]

I don't know how everyone else feels about sharing, but the thing that has put me off is the commitment to pay out money.

Although the hourly costs may work out cheaper, I like hiring from a club because if I don't have any money and can't afford to fly, it costs me nothing. If you're commited to paying a fixed amount each month then if you do have financial problems it's just another thing you have to find money for.

Also, there's no chance of having to find a big payment for maintenance or an upgrade.

True, the planes from my club aren't the best equipped in the world, but they are maintained well as they are hired out so have to be.

The main advantage of sharing for me would be to take the plane away - my club wants minimum hours a day flown, which isn't always practical.

[englishal]

I just got involved with a syndicate as a "non capital" member. I basically committed to 50 hrs, paid by standing order each month, no capital investment. All things considered the costs will not be much less than the flying club per hour, but for the money I get to fly a far more powerful aircraft [choice of 2 actually], excellent availibility booked on the web, and get the chance to tour with no minimum flight hours per day. The flying club states you must fly "3 hrs per day" to take the A/C away, but now I can fly to the channel islands, spend a few days and fly back with no worries. There's also the opportunity to take the A/C away for >10 days at a time to tour Europe etc....The best bit about being non-capital is that if an engines needs replacement, I'm not liable for any of the costs. As a capital member my hourly rate would no doubt be cheaper, but if you're not in a position to invest this way is ideal.The group I'm in stipulates a minimum TT of 200hrs plus IMC rating....

Cheers
EA:D

[Fuji Abound]

It has been discussed before but if you decide to go into a Group in my experience the key issues are:

1. Is the Group properly funded? In other words is there an engine and prop. fund because if not you can bet both will need a major overhaul just after you join. Is the fund sufficient to cover the cost?
2. Are parts available for the aircraft? For some aircraft parts are difficult to obtain and can be very expensive.
3. What is availability like? Does everyone want to use the aircraft at weekends and does this suite you or not?
4. Is the Group well run - occasional meetings, accounts, solid training and currency requirements.

If you decide to buy, do not underestimate the costs. The operational costs often quickly exceed the capital outlay. Consider also how much you will use the aircraft. Aircraft engines in particular like to be used. You may well find for example a small Group of no more than six people gives you just about all the use you could possibly want and yet the costs are split up to six ways.

[Ace Rimmer]

Hmm thinking about the question of why it is there are plenty of shares around at present if indeed there are.

A couple of months back I was looking very seriously at buying into an Arrer group. The a/c was very tidy, the the group seemed very well run and availibility too looked excellent.
So why didn't I go ahead? Talking it through with Mrs R we decided that what with all the uncertainites (this was just prior to GW2) it might be better to keep assets liquid rather than committed at least until the economic situation improved...