Serious lack of Airmanship....!

[Funkie]

Hi all,

I'm a PPL student with about 14hrs under my belt and progressing well, I think.

However, I have a little concern related to qualified PPL's that cannot conform to circuit patterns, ie overhead joins, noise abatement turns, climb outs and poor almost non-existent RT.

Recently, at my local airfield, there was almost a complete and unreserved ignorance of the 'circuit' during a day when air traffic was relatively high over normal. This has prompted the questions, Does this happen at other airfields? and if so, What can be done to reduce/improve these issues?

As I become more exposed to the private flying world of aviation, concern for my safety begins to grow……..

I look forward to the replies and opinions.

Funkie;)

[Zlin526]

Mmmmmmmm, I can see a baited hook, but I'm going to take a bite...Sounds like the sort of question that a local nimby might ask.

May I suggest you get used to it PDQ. There is no such thing as a 'normal'' circuit pattern anymore, what with noise abatement procedures to cater for the nimbys. It would be interesting to find out which airfield you refer to. Give us a clue?

Non-radio traffic is completly normal where I fly from, and the best way to deal with it is to keep your eyes open, have outstanding airmanship yourself, always assume the other pilots are out to kill you, and make your own decisions, and not rely on somebody in the tower/office to tell you what to do... You're flying the aeroplane, YOU make the decisions! Unless of course you're under a full ATC service, but then these guys tend to know what they're doing, as opposed to some FISO and A/G services. (Note, I stress SOME. Most are very good!)

Sorry to be so negative, but its a Sunday, the WX is awful, can't go flying and I'm stuck indoors at the PC

Have a nice day..

Zlin

[Bluebeard2]

Let he who is without sin etc. etc.

I've trained at some busy airfields and, whilst I have seen some examples of poor adherence to the circuit and have heard some wobbly r/t, I'm struggling to think of examples of where this has been so bad as to be dangerous. Its worth remembering that at non-controlled airfields its up to the pilot to determine how best to conform to the circuit pattern, this may not always mean strict adherence to published procedures but this doesn't have to be dodgy.

I was inbound to Lydd a couple of weeks ago - despite the Jeppesen stating an overhead join I was offered pretty much any join I wanted (neither of the neighbouring danger areas were active). The casual observer on the ground might have wondered why I wasn't joining as per the book.

Also, your perspective on the ground might give the impression that aircraft are doing odd things, or are following incorrect tracks over the ground - its hard to say for sure unless you are in the aircraft concerned.

Safe flying...

[Pilotage]

It strikes me that there are two separate issues here.

Firstly RT. Most airfields will accept non-RT traffic under varying circumstances. Also there are often occasions (such as trying to get a word in edgeways, dealing with a problem in the cockpit, etc.) when particular calls get missed or delayed. Use other people's RT to help you, but it's not realistic in any but the most regulated flying environments to expect every RT call to be at exactly the right spot in the circuit.

Secondly circuit patterns. There are a lot of different joins and departures available at any airfield and you might not have learned them all yet (at 700 hours I sometimes suspect that I haven't). Nonetheless, you can reasonably expect certain things, such as...

- Overhead joins at circuit height +500 ft
- All turns in the circuit direction
- Descending into the circuit to be done deadside unless, as occurs at one or two spots, local procedures require otherwise.
- Aircraft not to cut inside another that had called finals.

So, you can expect traffic, possibly non-radio, anywhere in the permitted circuit, any of the standard joins, an occasional straight-in join (hopefully only whilst using RT that one), and aircraft joining overhead from almost any direction. Your job is to remain aware of all of it and, lets be fair, that can be very difficult.

If specific instances occur that trouble you, I'd suggest talking over them ASAP with your instructor. He or she should then hopefully either explain what was going on (and thus equip you to cope with it better next time), or go and have stern words with a transgressor who should know better.

P

[Maxflyer]

I agree with Pilotage, I am a very low time ppl holder, but If I felt someone was being particularly dangerous, I would make a point of talking to the tower and equally addressing the person concerned.

[Final 3 Greens]

Funkie

With the very greatest of respect, at 14 hours you haven't learned enough to have an opinion as yet, although you may be recycling someone else's and that person may have the experience to judge whatever occured, which I notice that you have not defined.

Sorry if that seems a harsh comment, but you need to get your licence and start really learning about flying, before deciding whether the other flying that you see is safe.

I've a few hundred hours and am aware that that is VERY LOW TIME compared to many people out there - the more I fly , the more I realise how much there is still to learn.

What you do need to know is that when you are flying VFR, it's YOUR responsibility to see and avoid and this system in the UK works very well generally, as the safety figures for air-to-air incidents demonstrate.

As your experience grows, you will encounter airmanship that spans the range between outstanding and poor, in the same way that your will see many types of drivers on the road.

If you are having serious doubts now, it might be a good idea to talk things over with your instructor to double check that you are investing your money wisely by learning to fly.

However, I hope that you will join us as a PPL and then learn that the system is inherently very safe and provides an immedse amount of pleasure.

[Funkie]

All,

Thanks for the replies. If I could take these in turn and perhaps elaborate a bit further on the scenarios....

Zlin,

No hook, just an honest query... The airfield is north of EDI, but I won't divulge further, sorry. As for treating others like there out to kill me, I feel that is a safe assumption to make...

Bluebeard 2,

At uncontrolled airfields, surely conforming to a circuit pattern determined by the airfield is even more pertinent. As such the overhead join would enable the pilot to establish the runway in use, local housing etc.... Where offered an alternative, this would be under the control of others, surely?

Pilotage,

I fully agree with your comments, you have noticed my issues and provided some food for thought.

Final 3 Greens,

I think, to a certain degree, you are correct. I had discussed throughout the day the various issued that had occurred, and was provided with many tangible explanations by my instructor. Many of these I agree with, but I would not have said recycled. As for having things to learn, tell me about it... It might be never ending.

If I could elaborate further, perhaps it will help.

Scenario.... A/C X has called final, only to then hear a.n.other call final low level and cut-up the other A/C!

Scenario.... A rotary, having obtained fuel and with an A/C on final, takes off, crosses the runway at 90deg then leaves at 200'. No RT, until advising that he is changing frequency. Makes a bit of a mockery of the ‘circuit’ principle I reckon.

Scenario.... A/C Y is turning base onto a non-standard circuit, due to noise abatement, only to hear a.n.other call 'turning base, contact two others close together'. Concerning, yes! No consideration had been given by the visiting A/C as to the circuit pattern, despite being informed of circuit activity by other A/C, nor was he turning base......


What I am taking from this, is that these issues do occur and the only solution is to ensure that I’m safe. Have a good look-out and clear/concise RT. Where safety is breached then I deal with the person/s in question.

How more accidents don't occur is surprising though…

Funkie;)

[Whirlybird]

Funkie,

I've been thinking about all this. You are entitled to have opinions of course, however few hours you have, and in some cases you may be right. Like in anything else, you will meet the excellent, the mediocre, and the plain bad in aviation. You'll also meet human beings who make occasional mistakes, because they're tired, out of practice, overloaded, or whatever. But let's have a look at each of your examples:

1) Shouldn't happen. Unless there were other factors than what you've said, sounds like bad airmanship. OTOH, they were talking to each other, each knew what was happening, so not dangerous, and no real harm done.

2) Ah yes, helicopters. I fly them, and I know how unconventional...maybe anarchic...we can seem to f/w pilots - and I fly f/w aircraft too, so I can hopefully see it from both sides.
Helicopters don't need runways. Many airfields are happy for them to come and go as they please so long as it's safe. Often low level is the best way, as we're well out of everyone's way like that. Are you certain your airfield isn't one of those who allow that? Also, helicopters in a f/w circuit are dangerous, actually. We slow down first and THEN land. :eek: And a small helicopter from behind is barely visible. So low level is actually safest. Of course, strictly speaking the helicopter shouldn't depart when an aircraft is on final, and should announce his/her intentions on the radio. But again, everyone was visual with everyone else, and it doesn't sound like anything dangerous happened, from what you've said...and I wasn't there, so I could be wrong.

3) I can't quite follow your third example, so I won't comment, other than to say it can be really difficult visiting a new airfield with a non-standard circuit join for the first time. Many pilots, especially low hours ones, are really overloaded with all the RT and finding the field and looking out for other aircraft and working out what to do. Maybe the pilot only qualified last week! Maybe someone made a genuine mistake.

I'm not perfect, or even that experienced (500+ hours over 6 years), but I have been around quite a lot and seen and heard a lot of pilots. I reckon on the whole standards are pretty high, especially considering how little flying many PPLs do. But no, it's not perfect, and never will be. There will always be those who don't have much ability or situational awareness, those who don't keep current enough to be really safe, and those who make mistakes. If you can't accept that, you shouldn't fly. But I hope you'll realise it isn't all that bad, and carry on. :ok:

['India-Mike]

In my experience, airmanship in central Scotland (say between Prestwick/Oban across to Edinburgh/Dundee) is of, at least, an acceptable standard. R/T usage is generally good and appropriate. Overhead joins by PPL's are probably a rarity because of familiarity with aerodromes and traffic patterns - although I think we need to be trained in overhead joins, I don't think our traffic density up here generally requires them. Can't remember the last time I did one up here - or even down South. Coming back from the Vintage aeroplane fly-in at Kemble I visited 3 aerodromes that were completely unfamiliar to me and I didn't get an overhead join at any of them.:8

[Final 3 Greens]

Funkie

Quite an action packed afternoon :O

Let's look at the scenarios and let me play devil's advocate...

Scenario.... A/C X has called final, only to then hear a.n.other call final low level and cut-up the other A/C! THE OTHER A/C WAS LOWER LEVEL AND HAD RIGHT OF WAY UNDER THE RULES OF THE AIR

Scenario.... A rotary, having obtained fuel and with an A/C on final, takes off, crosses the runway at 90deg then leaves at 200'. No RT, until advising that he is changing frequency. Makes a bit of a mockery of the ‘circuit’ principle I reckon.

NOT NECESSARILY A REQUIREMENT TO MAKE A RADIO CALL AND IT THE OTHER A/C WAS ON, SAY, A 2-3 MILE FINAL, THEN PLENTY OF SPACE TO EXIT LOW LEVEL WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM - NOTE THAT BY DEPARTING AT 200 FT THE HELICOPTER WAS STAYING OUT OF THE CIRCUIT AND DECONFLICTING. HELICOPTER OPS OFTEN LOOK SCARY TO FIXED WING PILOTS, AS WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THEIR CAPABILITIES, BUT THEY ARE USUALLY OK IN MY EXPERIENCE AND QUITE THOUGHTFUL ABOUT ISSUES SUCH AS DOWNDRAFT FROM THEIR ROTORS

Scenario.... A/C Y is turning base onto a non-standard circuit, due to noise abatement, only to hear a.n.other call 'turning base, contact two others close together'. Concerning, yes! No consideration had been given by the visiting A/C as to the circuit pattern, despite being informed of circuit activity by other A/C, nor was he turning base......

HMMM - UNCONTROLLED AIRFIELD, HARD TO COMMENT ON THIS

I'm not being judgemental here and my comments may be tosh because I wasn't there; I've only made them to show that the situation isn't always black and white.

If your instructor said bad airmanship, then you can learn from his/her skill and experience ... but you will come across these sort of situations quite regularly when you fly and experience will make you more relaxed about most of them.

Happy flying.

[DB6]

Mmm, Glenrothes can be a bit hairy but it keeps your lookout sharp. Once you start tootling up to Dundee you will be able to relax a bit as that's all controlled. Perth can turn your hair white now and then though :ooh:

[murphy1901]

Hmmm.. speaking of "a bit hairy" , I was going to suggest that Funkie come south of EDI to quiet, sedate CBN for some circuits but the Grumman currently lying at a strange angle to the North of the runway might put him off!! (certainly distracted me yesterday as I taxied out).

Heard it was an attempted go-around after a ballooned landing that all went sadly wrong. Happily the cccupants walked away though.

Anyone know anything else about it?

[nonradio]

Helicopters, as whirly says, don't need a runway and it's actually safer not to mix it with the F/Ws (Indeed the in the US Helis are required to avoid as far as poss. the flow of F/W traffic) The times when helis can cause problems are often when they are flown in an unneighbourly fashion without regard to noise nuisance.

In any event the accident rate does not reflect any concerns we may have regarding airmanship, which is not to say complacency is the order of the day -quite the reverse- but merely that a sense of perspective is required and realistically 14 hours is not really there yet, is it?

DB6: not having a pop, but "you can relax a bit" because it's controlled? Sounds a bit like giving some of your Captaincy away.

[FlyingForFun]

Funkie, here's a few more for you:

- Aircraft reports joining left downwind at a controlled airfield, with another aircraft left downwind behind the first, with the first in sight. Second aircraft looses sight of the first aircraft. ATC say they've also lost sight of him. ATC finally spot first aircraft on a right base.

- At a field with an AFIS, where overhead joins are normal, aircraft reports joining cross-wind due to low cloud. AFISO reports three on downwind. Aircraft doesn't see any of them, but joins crosswind and turns downwind. Then spots all three aircraft, about 1/2 mile outside, flying a much wider circuit than he is.

- Aircraft is instructed, at an ATC field, to do a 45-degree join onto left downwind for runway 22L. Aircraft turns the wrong way, i.e. turns onto a right downwind for 04R.

Scary? Yes. Want to know where these examples of bad airmanship came from? Umm, well, I was responsible for all of them, over the course of a couple of years. In the case of the first one, I apologised to ATC, who were quite calm about my mistake, which hadn't put anyone in danger. In the case of the second one, I spoke to the pilot who I cut up, whose attitude was that since we both saw each other there was no danger, so who cares. After the third one, I spoke to an instructor who said not to worry about it, these things happen.

None of us are perfect. We will all make mistakes. It doesn't mean we're generally bad pilots, as long as we learn from those mistakes. The advice of assuming that every other pilot is out to kill you is good advice - it will keep you away from pilots making mistakes, and when you make mistakes it will keep you away from other pilots.

As for lack of R/T, always assume that every aircraft is non-radio. Hear someone calling downwind, and you can see an aircraft downwind? Assume there are two aircraft downwind, one non-radio that you've seen, and one who you heard but haven't seen yet. There's one runway at my base airfield where you can't see final approach from the run-up area. Of course I listen out for aircraft in the circuit while doing my pre take-off checks, but whether I hear someone or not, I'm always very careful as I taxy onto the runway, and prepared to stop or turn around if I see an aircraft on final.

FFF
-------------

[Hooligan Bill]

Final 3 Greens,

Scenario.... A/C X has called final, only to then hear a.n.other call final low level and cut-up the other A/C! THE OTHER A/C WAS LOWER LEVEL AND HAD RIGHT OF WAY UNDER THE RULES OF THE AIR

Rule 17 6 (b) states

In the case of two or more flying machines, gliders or airships approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the right of way, but it shall not cut in front of another aircraft which is in final approach to land or overtake that aircraft:

[Circuit Basher]

Speaking of airmanship, not too sure whether to post in this or the Sherburn PIREP thread.

On Saturday, when arriving at Sherburn, joined downwind for 24 LH after an overhead join / deadside descent, made it a slightly wide circuit (avoiding noise sensitive areas!) to give me a chance to suss the place out and get a picture / plan in my head. Made downwind a reasonably long affair, again to give me a chance to acquaint myself with what was going on. There was an a/c behind me in the circuit ( G-II, who wasn't a Pruner, but seemed happy to tag along behind - thanks, if you're reading this!). As I was on left base, an a/c (that I don't think was a Pruner) cut from downwind straight across the pair of us and made a short finals approach. Didn't really object too strongly, but felt it was poor airmanship and a radio call to explain what he was up to wouldn't have gone amiss (although the RT traffic level was quite high, which is part of the reason I didn't make a big fuss about it). Saw the pilot from G-II in the queue to pay landing fees and when he heard me giving my a/c reg, he commented on the poor airmanship displayed by the guy who cut in front of us.

Not making an issue of it, but at the very least, I feel that bad manners and less than perfect airmanship / RT were displayed by the other a/c.

[Miserlou]

An important point about good R/T is saying as little as possible.

A consideration about 'noise pollution' is the time of exposure which makes straight in or base leg joins preferable to overheads.

The absolute safest join is overhead at , say, 1500' or higher, closing the throttle and making a constant rate, descending turn to land.

Modern corcuits rarely give you the opportunity to land on the field if the engine quits, likewise straight-ins, unless you stay high enough to make a power off approach.

You will almost never see as many aircraft in the circuit as at a non-radio field or hear so few complaints about lack of airmanship.

[DB6]

nonradio, I only said 'a bit'. But it is easier if ATC are getting everybody to report their position all the time - lookout, listenout. It's easier to see other aircraft above the river as well; they're easily lost against Glenrothes town centre :8

[TangoZulu]

I was always taught to fly a realtiveyl tight circuit and consider the position and requirements where possible of other aircraft in the circuit.

Yet arriving at Shoreham the other day I was descending deadside behind a Jabiru which proceeded to fly a circuit which took in Brighton and seemingly all points east, Not wanting to flying a larger circuit than necessary I try to follow the Jabiru whilst deploying two stages of flap to try and stay behind it.

Eventually it makes it onto final and lands - hopefully he should have been listening to the radio and been aware that

a) I was behind him in the circuit and on final
b) I was given a land after clearance

Which makes it very frustrating after all that has gone before that after landing he then dawdles around on the runway before eventually exiting - as I was only at about 30ft when he was thinking about turning off the runway I decided discretion was the better part etc etc and did a GA.

It seems that some pilots forget that they are in a realtively busy environment with numerous other a/c and seem to belive that the runway is there only private road, rather than expediting off to clear for the next a/c.

Not sure if I am being over ciritical or just that every so often at EGHH with a 737 on final it seems better to expedite off the runway:D

TZ

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It seems that some pilots forget that they are in a realtively busy environment with numerous other a/c and seem to belive that the runway is there only private road Yeah, right. I was once on final and this guy at the holding point gets given clearance for "immediate take off" so's to be gone by the time I get there. So what does he do? Backtracks, not having asked to do so, not having been cleared to do so, in a light aircraft that was going to use maybe 20% of the miles of tarmac ahead of him.

(On this occasion I didn't have to go around, a sideways repositioning for the parallel grass runway doing the trick.)

[Pilotage]

Seen in a club newsletter that I received this morning...

"Always fly as if you own the aeroplane, and not the sky".

P

[mad_jock]

Only overhead joins I know of in scotland is CUM and Glen Rothes.

And by the description it sounds like a normal day at CUM.

Now you should see the excitement at Perth when they have 16 microlights in the circuit. Or they open the runway for 15mins between air displays.

As someone has already said these things happen, we are all human.

The locals all know what to expect. You will one of them yourself in 6 months time, bitching about the visiting planes cocking things up.

The joys of uncontrolled airfields.

The RT of the FISO at CUM is a laugh as well.


MJ

[Whirlybird]

Funkie,

In case you're taking any of this the wrong way, no-one's getting at you. it's just that a lot of us have been around long enough to know how easy it is to cock things up...and we've done it more times than some of us (OK, me anyway) want to admit.

Why not more accidents? Because luckily it's unusual for two pilots to cock it up in the same bit of sky at the same time. It's because there's a lot of sky up there, not because we're perfect. I haven't been perfect since the first time my instructor let me loose alone; before that...I probably thought I was...well...nearly perfect anyway. ;)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone etc.

[bookworm]

I am assertive.

You are pragmatic.

He displays poor airmanship.

:)

[topcat450]

Dont worry about some of the replies Funky.

I, for one, am glad you aired any worries you have and I hope you continue to do so as time progresses.

Somethings you notice maybe real safety issues, some may not, but if you get jumped on and trampled down merly for stating an opinion then you're less likely to shout up in future...when it maybe more serious....so don't worry about some of the replies and keep asking them questions!

(and listen to your instructor...rather than beleive EVERYTHING you read on here...he'll get you through the exams, then (and only then) you can start to pick up all the bad habbits these lot on 'ere have) :O

[phnuff]

I remember my first circuits (dual), were from Luton where you dont even breath without checking with the tower (this was 10+ years ago). I then went to get ready for solo at Bourne and could not believe the difference - radio calls intermittant if at all, people charging into the circuit from all over the place (not just the overhead join, deadside decent the books mentioned) and hell, it freaked me out and culminated with being cut up on my first solo final by a :mad: in a microlight (with whom my instructor wisely didnt let me go and talk to afterwards!) .

Eventually, I got used to it and the advice of always assume the other people in the circuit are idiots and can and will do dumb things seems to apply.

Best of all was the unlicenced, non radio strip I went into once following a Chippy. I was about 400 yds behind and he landed, stopped and didnt make any effort to vacate to the right. I had to go around and hell was I angry . . . but of course, this is what you can expect at these unlicenced, unregulated strips because it just is (no dig at anyone intended).

[SuperOwl]

I think there are a couple of issues here.

1. Funkie has obviously been in a situation which has caused him concern about safety REGARDLESS of whether he/she is right or wrong.

2. People are saying that the situations "happen from time to time".

O.K.
My concern is that Funkie despite his/her low hours (the same as mine), you would have thought, from previous experience in life in general (whether Aviation related or not) would be able to deduce whether something is risky or not.

The fact that people may cite Funkie's lack of experience as a reason for Funkie being wrong worries me. Maybe Funkie is right, maybe Funkie IS wrong. But on these (hopefully) rare occasions Funkie mentions the other pilots were being a little complacent? (One would hope not of course)

Funkie, if you read this, good on you for being concerned about not only your own, but other people's safety as well. I too am at the same stage of learning as you and sometimes feel that other pilots in the same bit of sky as me aren't aware that I don't have the same experience as they do and as a consequence may not be able to deal with various situations as proficiently as they can. I'm not saying that they should carry me in cotton wool because what would that teach me?... Not much.

Anyway, best of luck and don't let the situations you have mentioned put you off. Just keep your eyes peeled and RT permiting keep listening out.

[High Wing Drifter]

Some interesting points made here. With regard to the some of the admissions or observations I would like to ask for a definition - what exactly is airmanship?

I regard airmanship was that carefully described set of activities/traits/procedures that reduce risk. One could prehaps describe the the CAA safety sense leaflets as airmanship manuals.

These days airmanship seems to be extended by personal opinion and general unqualified critisism.

I don't count mistakes and non-perfect flying as bad airmanship. Airmansip is that mindset that extends the margins to account for errors. Mistakenly being on the wrong circuit is not bad airmanship. Calling downwind and increasing the chance that you or someone else will spot the error before it is too late is good airmanship.

:D

[Funkie]

Hi all,

The replies have been, if nothing else, informative.....

What is surprising however, are the differences of opinion/fact posted by others, for better or worse...! (The worse I'll simply ignore).

Hooligan Bill, thanks for posting that info. You got in before I did.

As for the words of encouragement from Whirlybird and topcat450, thank you. It's good see people who have no preconceptions about a persons knowledge/experience, and as SuperOwl has mentioned, I agree. Whether or not I have significant experience, the fact is, I was exposed to these situations where I felt uneasy, hence the post.

High Wing Drifter, you ask an interesting question. To me, airmanship is being aware of my surroundings, either in the circuit or not. Being aware of others, flying or not, and how my actions effect these people and following the ‘rules’.

It would be interesting to see what others say.

Never the less, I managed to pass my air law exam today (had to re-sit given my gap in training), so it's on with the rest of the syllabus....

Funkie:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

Guys,

Just re-read my post and it sounds a bit high and mighty. Not intentional :O

Funckie,

Good point. Just thought about this some more. Methinks being aware of your surounings makes you a better pilot. Fullstop. However, you may still be wrong. So what do you do guard against any assumptions or errors of judgement?

For example, the guy who just flew a bad circuit may have added 1.43 to his landing run calculations and has only taken account of 50% of the headwind component. The guy who flew a perfect circuit didn't bother as 800m is more than enough for him and his three passengers. He did it last week no problem.

Granted this example is over simplified and very by the book.

Congrats on the Airlaw BTW :) With respect to this thread you will find Performance and Human Factors fascinating reading (if you haven't already that is).

TTFN

[Circuit Basher]

Funkie - firstly congrats on the Air Law and hope it's just the first in a long line of passes!

HWD A lot of people tend to regard airmanship as something which only happens in the air (such as getting the checks done, lookout, situational awareness, communicating appropriately, etc). I tend to think of it as something which starts before you even get to the airfield: Route planning, getting PPR, checking on the met (including looking out of the window!!), checking to see if the AIS site's working, studying the chart for the route you intend to fly, checking out any questions you might have with a PPRuNe thread ;), etc. At the airfield, there's talking to the instructors at the club about what you plan to do (if it's unusual or you need to see what their feelings are on it), checking the tech log, booking out with ATC, getting the aircraft out of the hangar (checking for any damp spots on the hangar floor before you move it), doing a thorough walk around, positioning yourself well for engine start (so you don't blow sand in everyone's beer ;) ), considerate positioning for power checks so you don't obstruct the taxiway or blow over the microlight behind you! ....

The list goes on, but it all improves YOU and the qualities of you as a pilot, rather than just an aviator!

PS MJ - I pretty well always do overhead joins at Perth (unless the active is almost in a straight line for me) and an awful lot of people seem to do them in my experience. If they're operating off 21 RH, there's nothing like descending deadside to 1000' when you've got 1300' range of hills to the South of the field ;) :ouch: :mad:

[Edited 'coz my tripe writing's cr@p!]

[Whirlybird]

What is airmanship? Hmmm...that's probably worthy of a thread to itself. I always tell people it's common sense, and it is...but common sense is pretty uncommon sometimes.

[topcat450]

Could Airmanship be defined as knowing what the implications of your actions will have on others around you. So good airmanship would be to think about what your about to do and would it put someone else in an area of danger? Or could it lead to them being put in danger?

But I'm with Whirley....could do with a thread on it's own

[High Wing Drifter]

Basher,

Couldn't agree more! Interesting differentiation between Pilot and Aviator. Just reading "Think Like a Bird" about an ex Army Air Corps pilot's experiences (search on Amazon). There the general thread is that any monkey can be a pilot, but only a few are Aviators :) Recommend the book BTW. A fascinating account of flying light aircraft (Chipmunks, Beavers and Austers) in very difficult circumstances!

What is it they say? "The best pilots make the worst mistakes" (or something like that).

[RodgerF]

I have always believed that trying to pin down airmanship is a bit like describing an elephant to someone, difficult to do but easy after they have seen one.

[Circuit Basher]

HWD - what I was really trying to get across is that in aviation (as with so many other things), there are 2 very distinct types of people (with quite a few in between). I've chosen to refer to them as 'pilots' and 'aviators' - I'm not really fussy which way round the definitions go, but recognising the difference between the 2 is the important bit. I think that your way round is probably better, in fact.

Aviators There are those who have lived, breathed and slept aviation for so long that it's all just second nature. They don't even consciously have to think about whether they're climbing / descending, flying in / out of balance (wish I was that good ;) ). An example is one of my instructors from my PPL stude days, who would sometimes take a newspaper with him, so that he'd set me a task and let me get on with flying it whilst he read the paper! I'd feel his feet working the rudder pedals instinctively if he sensed the a/c was out of balance and he didn't even look away from the newspaper!

Pilots I often see the thought processes of new PPLs who have never really had any previous dealings with aviation (not trying to have a dig here at anyone, but it's a fact) - 'I'm walking across the pan here to my aircraft. I'm halfway across and OH DEAR, THERE'S SOMETHING WITH A WHIZZY THING ON COMING TOWARDS ME!!'. Listening to an ATIS and having to write it down to work out whether it's flyable or not, getting the calculator (or cribsheet) out to see whether the crosswind's in limits. With time, they may become aviators, but for the time being, they are people who can manipulate the controls adequately to manoeuvre a flying machine from a start point to a finish point without excess damage.

The people who IMHO are less likely to make true aviators are those for whom a PPL is a kudos thing or a "Let's find a flash way to show that I've got a lot of cash" sort of attitude. They are less ikely to be found on PPRuNe chatting about aviation in their spare time. It was once said to me that true aviators would sleep in their car / go hungry / eat cat meat / beg on the streets to fund their flying habit ;) They would be seen driving G reg Ladas (or any other vehicle that was legal - just) and served to deliver them to their place of aviation.

[147break]

Made a bit of a hash of an overhead join today. There was not, at any point, any danger to anyone/anything but it is something I'm determined to learn from so it won't occur again. (It was kind of reassuring that someone else in the circuit was doing the same thing wrong!!) I don't need to do many overhead joins at my base field as it is usually straight in or join base/downwind.

I reckon mistakes are there to be learnt from and are all part of making us more aware of situations in the future. (If lessons are learnt)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just in passing, a while ago I remember a conversation with the inimatable John Stewart-Smith, formerly editor of FSB. He said he'd been asked by a publisher (I forget which) to write a book on airmanship to accompany the usual PPL textbooks.

I've not been in touch with him for a while, but so far as I know it's not materialised. If anybody's in touch with him, give the man a nudge and tell him to get on with it, it's a subject well worth writing a book about and he'd be the ideal person to do so.

G

[Lucifer]

Once, a while back, I had an extremely hairy situation with another aircraft in the circuit at Fife/Glenrothes which I suspect you may be referring to.

The case was a chap who was following myself into the circuit making the appropraite calls a minute or so behind myself from an overhead join.

If you are unfamiliar with Glenrothes, the circuit on the Westerly runway to take account of housing and noise abatement takes you a long way out over the railway on the downwind leg, with a finals turn at only 300' or so over the golf course.

The guy behind was obviously unaware of this and I was surprised to meet him coming very close (stilll downwind) towards me while I was on base at about 500'.

Not content with finding me there he made not attempt to make any evasive action and we missed by a matter of 40' or so, while I continued to land. Note that I was lower, and right of him, and in the circuit ahead of him (had he been listening to my radio calls), yet on the ground I was confronted by an angry pratt shouting "you cut me up!" at myself.

Needless to say he was banned from Tayside fields and his own club at Cumbernauld, but it serves as a cautionary tale that even if you are in the right, look out for the idiot doing something stupid, and lookout more so it is not at the last second that you spot him as I did.