View Full Version : legalities
shotpeened
31st May 2003, 06:47
Large european airport, alpha charlie is on radar heading for closing the ILS
"alpha charlie, your clear ILS approach, report established"
a little later
"alpha charlie, can you make your heading 275? One to clear"
"alpha charlie, willco"
275 is still a base leg.
A little later, AC closes and captures the ILS
"Alpha charlie, fully established"
Controller, yelling, "alpha charlie, I never cleared you for ILS !!"
Quid iuris?
Tinstaafl
31st May 2003, 06:57
I take those instructions to mean 'I'm cleared for the approach, intercept the ILS, report established' then later 'use HDG 275 to make the above happen'.
The approach clearance was never cancelled.
Captain Stable
31st May 2003, 21:22
Technically, I'd have to agree with Tinny.
However, given the (somewhat dubious) phraseology and a certain amount of situational awareness, I think we'd have to agree that the implication was that the approach clearance was cancelled.
Tinstaafl
1st Jun 2003, 05:24
The controller may well have intended that implication but that's not what the message says. I certainly don't & wouldn't interpret those two messages to give that meaning.
Captain Stable
2nd Jun 2003, 00:18
Sure - in a court of law, if the jury only see a transcript of the R/T, you'd be on rather sticky ground.
I would suggest that, in similar circumstances, the only safe option is to get immediate clarification.
If such clarification is not available in the time available( e.g., R/T congestion, whatever, then the only safe course is to assume you have no onward clearance - and go around.
Bealzebub
2nd Jun 2003, 22:56
It sounds like a question of communications rather than legality.
If in doubt ask ! From the example you have given you had your approach clearence superceeded by an instruction to take up an assigned heading followed by a brief explanation.
Sounds to me like the controller could have communicated the instruction a little better and failing that you should have sought clarification if any doubt existed.
In my view you are both to blame. Mind you I wasn't there and I wouldn't be the person to cast the first stone in this greenhouse.