Fuel safety question

[FlyingForFun]

Here's a theoretical situation which I've been discussing with some friends:

I'm going to fly to a reasonably distant field. Getting there and back on one tank of fuel is cutting it a little fine, I really need to refuel somewhere. The field I'm going to doesn't have any fuel - maybe it's a private farm-strip, or I'm there after hours or something.

Rather than make an en-route fuel stop, I decide to take some extra fuel with me. I take with 2x5-litre fuel cans - plastic cans, designed for carrying fuel, appropriately labelled and properly sealed. When I get to my destination, I pour these into the fuel tank, which gives me enough endurance to get home safely.

What do people think about carrying fuel in the luggage compartment like this?

Is it legal?
Is it safe?
Would the answer to either of these depend on whether it was MoGas or AvGas?

FFF
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[Dude~]

Firstly, I dont know the legality of this.

Secondly, is 10L going to make enough of a differance?

Thrid, it's up to you whether you want petrol in the cabin. It would only be dangerous in severe turbulance or a crash landing where the integrity of the containers might be compimised. Think about it a bit. Have you ever seen petrol ignite? Its scary. I once doused some rubbish in a petrol/diesal mix in a 44gal oil drum with the top cut off. I threw in a lit rag from a few meters back, but it still shocked me. The entire contents of the drum went about 50ft up, and came down all over the place allight.

Having said that, I once drove 20,000 miles around Oz with 20L of petrol under my bed in the back of my van. Can't say I'd recommend it though.

If you're going to a strip with no fuel, it is possibly short, so why not have a fuel stop soon after departing the strip, that way you'll be light for the strip arrival and dep.

Bush planes often carry fuel, but they are often in 44gal drums which are incredibly strong.

Wouldn't bother personally.

[Circuit Basher]

In response, my first pass anwer, FFF, would be a resounding 'NO' to all of the above. I'm sure that others will have different views / interpretations, but I've looked at the Air Navigation Order (CAP393) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF) Section 7 Page 5 (which is on Page 365 of the PDF file), which contains a lot of info, including:Requirement for approval of operator
4 (1)An aircraft shall not carry or have loaded onto it any dangerous goods unless;
(a)the operator is approved under this regulation;and
(b)such goods are carried or loaded in accordance with:
(i)any conditions to which such approval may be subject;and
(ii)in accordance with the Technical Instructions.
(2)An approval under this regulation:
(a)shall be granted by the CAA if it is satisfied the operator is competent to carry
dangerous goods safely;
(b)shall be in writing;and
(c)may be subject to such conditions as the CAA thinks fit.
Prohibition of carriage of dangerous goods
5 (1)Subject to paragraphs (2)and (3)a person shall not:
(a)deliver or cause to be delivered for carriage in,or
(b)take or cause to be taken on board;
an aircraft any dangerous goods,which he knows or ought to know or suspect to be
goods capable of posing a risk to health,safety,property or the environment when
carried by air,unless the Technical Instructions have been complied with and the
package of those goods is in a fit condition for carriage by air.
(2)Subject to paragraph (3),these Regulations shall not apply to those dangerous goods specified in the Technical Instructions as being:
(a)for the proper navigation or safety of flight;
(b)to provide,during flight,medical aid to a patient;
(c)to provide,during flight,veterinary aid or a humane killer for an animal;
(d)to provide,during flight,aid in connection with search and rescue operations;
(e)permitted for carriage by passengers or crew members;or
(f)intended for use or sale during the flight in question.

I suppose there is an argument that you are intending to use the goods during the flight in question!!

Personally speaking, I would view it as a bad idea and worthy of a slight detour to uplift fuel from a site en route. As I said, this is from personal outlook alone and not just based on the ANO.

[FlyingForFun]

Interesting.

Circuit Basher's reply suggests that it would be illegal unless it was necessary for the flight. In a remote area where no fuel was available, it could be argued that it was necessary, but I think it would be a difficult argument to make if a fuel diversion was possible - so almost certainly illegal.

Dude, yes 10L would make a difference to my aircraft, which burns 15L/hr. I'm well aware of what fuel can do - have used it on barbecues several times (make sure all the fuel has burnt off before putting the food on, unless you like the taste!!!) I have to admit that my first thoughts were that it would be safe, after all the container would be sealed. But I hadn't thought about the integrity after a crash. I wonder what the regulations are regarding the structural integrity of a fuel tank in some of the cheapest home-built aircraft, and how this compares to a fuel can?

It seems that, from the legal side, there is no difference between AvGas and MoGas since they would both be considered dangerous goods. From the safety side, AvGas is less volatile than MoGas, and so probably marginally less unsafe, but still not to be messed with.

Any more thoughts?

FFF
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[2Donkeys]

FFF

What you are proposing is illegal, although the legislation concerned is actually the Air Navigation (Dangerous Goods) Regulations 2002.

You would be committing an offence under Article 5, which makes it illegal to take, or cause to take on board an aircraft, dangerous goods which include cannisters of fuel.

Unfortunately for you, this is a pretty clear-cut piece of legislation. You should make an intermediate fuel stop and accept the slightly longer flight time.... After all, [cheap shot] why do we do it, if not for fun [/cheap shot] :O

[Dude~]

15L/hr, I use that just priming!!

Only joking, though I am more used to 40l/hr so I'd really be cutting it fine if I had to carry 10L!

If you are really determined to do the trip without stops, maybe there is a way of arranging to get 10lof fuel at the strip. Friends? Or whoever cuts the grass almost certainly has a petrol engine mower..hmmmmm tractors take diesal dont they.. oh well, just an idea.

D

[FlyingForFun]

Did I say I was actually planning on doing this???

If I was in this situation, there are lots of things I could do. Stopping somewhere would be one option. As would getting someone at the field to get me some fuel. Or throttling back to a more economical speed. Or taking a different aircraft. Or.... you get the idea!

I don't think it's quite as clear cut as 2Donks makes out, but not far off - if there were no other options, it seems like it would be legal under paragraph 2(a), because they would be required for the proper navigation or safety of flight. But it's very hard to imagine a situation in England or Wales where this would apply! It certainly wouldn't apply in the scenario I've described.

FFF
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[Mariner9]

The volativity differences between Mogas and Avgas is irrelevant as both will readily form flammable mixtures in UK ambient conditions (or anywhere where the temperature is above about minus 30C)

[david viewing]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone suggest a link to a site describing how ferry pilots do this, complete with in-flight plumbing etc?

Just wondering, that's all..

[Genghis the Engineer]

FFF,

Not sure I can add anything on legality or safety to what people have said above. However, you asked about the safety of the actual main fuel tank(s).

I'm pretty certain your Europa was designed and certified to JAR-VLA. The requirements in there are that the tank must retain all the fuel and stay supported within the aircraft at loads of 3g upwards, 9g forwards or 1.5g sideways. Also, it's got to retain fuel on landing with (I quote) "the most critical landing gear leg collapsed and the other landing gear legs extended".

There's an extra requirement which doesn't I think apply to the Europa standard tank but would almost certainly be applied to any ferry-tank or "baggage" fit in the back of the cabin that it's got to hold for 15g load in the direction through the cockpit.

G

[2Donkeys]

The rules governing Ferry Piloting of aircraft (for example across the North Atlantic) vary slightly by the state of registry of the aircraft. However, where an additional fuel tank is carried (often within the Cabin), the installation requires a modification approval (CAA or FAA) and the use of the tank may well be subject to additional conditions.

This is a rigorously regulated field, and has little in common with the problem of wanting to carry a jerry can of fuel in your baggage compartment.

[FlyingForFun]

In addition to the illegality of carrying fuel due to the Dangerous Goods section of the ANO, Genghis's post gives some interesting information regarding safety. I have no idea what kind of g-force the average plastic can can take, but I'd guess it's less than 9g.

So in addition to being illegal, carrying fuel in a can is probably far less safe than carrying fuel in your aircraft's tank.

I think that settles what was left of this argument! Interesting, nonetheless.

FFF
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[englishal]

Have you ever carried a can of petrol in the boot of your car? In the summer I regularly carry 3x20L gerry cans to my boat, and even with the Mrs driving I haven't blown up yet....:D

I'm sure your plastic cans will withstand more than enough G force to allow the flight to be made in complete safety, even if not legal...I should imagine the wings would fall off before the can ruptures.

CU
EA:D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Properly secured I'd also expect a typical can to take the g-loading. It's the securing I'd worry about.

A typical 20 litre can, when full, weighs about 17kg. At 9g that's 153kg - some fairly secure tie-downs are needed there ! Even a 5 litre plastic can at 9g is 36kg, 60kg at 15g - and that will smart a bit if it's tied down behind you and comes loose.

Conversely however, at standard crash loads a normal seat harness should be designed for an absolute minimum of 693kg forwards - so a 20 litre tank full of, say, water should properly strapped in be quite safe in a seat harness. But probably not in the baggage tie-downs.

G