Notam Website Time Warp

[david viewing]

Could somebody please advise if this is just me, or a real problem?

The NOTAM pre-prepared bulletins at http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/pibs/index.shtml
appear to still be on the 13th of May. Today is the 19th.

I appreciate that this might be a cacheing problem at my end, but I have tried different computers with the same result. If it is my misunderstanding, sincere apologies to NATS.

[Romeo Romeo]

Well, I get the same problem:

PERIOD: 03/05/13 14:00 UTC TO 03/05/15 14:00 UTC


I doubt it's a caching problem, because it's unlikely we both got the page on the 13th. Besides, I did a refresh on the page as well.

[david viewing]

RR, thanks for the reply. That's reassuring (sort of)

The problem came to light because I was testing the new Notamplot filter at http://mysite.freeserve.com/ais2plot/index.html experiencing the joy of using Notamplot again when some of the Notams seemed familiar.

So far as I can see, the 'one touch' area and the narrow route briefing work OK.

[david viewing]

I got a reply from Phil Bate at AIS acknowledging the problem and saying that they are investigating. This leaves the question of how many people actually use Notam data, if it took 6 days for anyone to notice. (Of course, this was backup data, not the main source, but unfortunately what has been chosen for use with the Notamplot parsing engine).

[Mike Cross]

mmmmm.........

Should not have happened.:(

It's also very easy to click on the wrong forecast or for someone to upload the wrong file on to the server so it's as well to check the date on the result before relying on it.

If anyone spots anything like this please call the AIS Duty Officer (H24) on 020 8745 3450/3451

The question of how many people still check is a worry, especially following the case of the Red Arrows TRA infringement, which is reported to have cost £600 in costs and fines.

I believe AIS2Plot is a third-party link between Ian Fallon's NotamPlot and the contingency PIB's, not produced or supported by Ian, who I understand has recently been in the throes of changing jobs.

Briefs on the main AIS site (www.ais.org.uk) are extracted on demand from a replica of the main AIS database. The main and replica servers are co-located and connected to each other so the replica server is continuously updated. The contingency PIB's are however held on the main NATS server and are updated twice a day. The AIS site is therefore always going to have the most up to date info.

The main advantage of this arrangement is that it is most unlikely that both the AIS and NATS servers will fail simultaneously.

The added complexity of producing PIB's by querying the main database on request does require the user's browser to be compatible. Having the NATS site available also means that someone with an incompatible browser can still get the NOTAM.

Mike

[Aussie Andy]

It currently says This contingency site is temporarily unavailable.

[david viewing]

Mike

Do you have a link to the Red Arrows TRA infringement case?

David

[Mike Cross]

It's here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87304&highlight=red+arrows) David

Mike

[Aussie Andy]

Seems to be working today...

[IO540-C4D5D]

As a matter of interest, is there any website where one can enter a list of waypoints (e.g. EGXX LYD CPT DVR MAY ACORN ALKIN EGXX - sorry I know this route doesn't actually make sense!) plus planned altitudes and get a list of NOTAMs affecting the route, say 10nm either side of it and being effective at the planned altitude?

The software would be relatively non-trivial but this kind of system is badly needed. It would be an easy automatic check to do before a flight. Practically every flying school has a PC and many would subscribe to it. Most regular pilots also use a PC for flight planning.

The printed NOTAMs I have seen are very hard to use. The nearest I have seen is a commercial (pay) website on which you can do this sort of thing, one leg at a time. It still turns up lots of crap like a 200ft crane on the ground somewhere - who's going to fly down there? So the NOTAM list is very long; I once tried to do it for a trip to France and got about 100 pages of them.

No wonder most pilots don't check NOTAMs.

[Mike Cross]

Yes there is and it's the UK AIS website (http://www.ais.org.uk). It will do exactly what you ask and over multiple FIR's. You need the Narrow Route Briefing. Also please read the FAQ's on the site so that you understand how the height filtering works. You will get ground level up to your FL plus 4000 ft for the first and last legs of your route. Intermediate legs will be +/- 4000 ft of your nominated FL so if you don't want low level info make sure that you put a waypoint in near to your departure and destination airfields.

Given the furore in this and other forums in recent months I'm surprised that you do not already know about this site.

Also check out http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais for further info.

You might also like to look at the following
http://www.notampro.com/
http://www.notamplot.flyer.co.uk/ you'll also need http://mysite.freeserve.com/ais2plot/index.html
http://www.altais.org.uk/
http://www.avbrief.co.uk/

Mike

[Aussie Andy]

Mike,

I suppose that those of us who haven't taken such a degree of interest in the workings of AIS might be unaware of what it can do (I am and I agree it can do all we need, viz. my recent trip to Germany mentioned in another post).

For me though, the question by IO540-C4D5D highlights the need for two things:

1) improved user friendliness of the site making the availability of these features more apparent and easier to intuitively understand how to use (of course hell might freeze over first, notwithstanding the fixes already achieved!); and moreover

2) the need for an educational / tutorial pamphlet showing how to use the site.

I have suggested on the feedback form that comes with the excellent "Get Met" booklet that they include a "Get NOTAM" section for this purpose.

Best,

Andy

[Mike Cross]

Excellent idea Andy

I totally agree with your comments. Now we have got the mechanics of it working reasonably well we need to concentrate on making it more intuitive and on producing a good user guide. (irreverent idea, let's call it a "Briefing Handbook", - blast, they're already using that for something which is nothing of the sort :yuk: ).

Unfortunately there are a number of problem areas here:-

1. The naturally defensive position adopted by anyone when criticism is made of the work they have done. I don't think we have that problem with AIS themselves, but I suspect that there are those within other areas of NATS and within Thales IS (the software vendors) who still can't understand what we are banging on about)

2. It is VERY difficult to write a user guide that is clear, unambiguous, and easily understood by the reader. Engineers are not usually the best people to write them, which is why there is a market for technical authors.

3. The same problem as 2. also applies to the design of the user interface and prompts.

4. Changes to the software involve both Thales IS and NATS support services, whose time has to be paid for out of the AIS budget.

All of this takes time and money to do well. NATS already had a problem with the costs and delays of Swanwick and, post 9/11, have a greatly reduced income stream so cash is at a premium.

I suspect that those who hold the purse strings might be saying "well it works fine now, if only the bu**ers would read the instructions and learn how to use it."

AIS themselves have had to cope with introducing new systems, while at the same time continuing to run the old legacy systems, with no additional resources. They have still not managed to kill off the old systems so the workload is still high and I know they are also suffering staff shortages through illness.

None of the above is an excuse for getting it wrong in the first place, but it does perhaps explain some of the reasons for delay and I hope it aids understanding.

As you know AIS staff are not permitted to post on the forums so their side doesn't get heard. In my view they really do want to improve things but they have to work within the resource that is available to them. I hope this will come across during the visit on 12 June.

If we can get the rest of NATS and Thales enthused with the idea of excellence and customer satisfaction it will help a lot.

They do read what gets posted here.

Mike

[Aussie Andy]

Hi Mike,

Yes agree with all that and understand: perhaps then this is a job for the magazines then.

Somehow what is now, in my view, a very good system with a somewhat arcane user interface, should be promoted and explained.

Ian? Irv?

Andy :cool:

[Mr Wolfie]

Aussie Andy, Couldn't agree more. The user interface on the AIS site is clunky, misleading, cumbersome, and full of blind alleys.

The Met Office in comparison have a site to be proud of. From their log in page to anywhere on the site takes no more than 3 page clicks. Their "GetMet" booklet is also excellent.

As a PPL student ready to take his test as soon as the weather clears, I have to say that obtaining NOTAMS prior to a flight is a most confusing and unsatisfying proccess. I am not surprised that others have simply given up. Whilst not wishing in anyway to undermine the work of those individuals who have obviously worked so tirelessly to improve the website, it still seems to be a second rate offering. Until it is improved, a "GetNotam" booklet would be a really useful tool, or in its absence, as Mike suggests, if some of the mags could provide a couple of Notam tutorial feature articles it would help.

Mr.W

[IO540-C4D5D]

mrcross

Thank you for this info; I've been to the AIS site many times to get e.g. approach plates but never noticed that it can filter on the basis of planned altitude.

Often in the past the site has been so slow (I have a 64k ISDN link) that I used it as little as possible.

[rustle]

Often in the past the site has been so slow (I have a 64k ISDN link) that I used it as little as possible.

It is not bad for a free service though :)
(Free to all VFR flights and all < 2T IFR flights anyway ;) )

[Mike Cross]

IO540-C4D5D

I think the problem has been that if you did (say) EGHP DCT EGLL (there's an improbable route) and set a flight level you would appear to get no filtering because you have no intermediate waypoints. It will assume you are at ground level at each end and, climbing en-route to your FL and then descending back to ground. So it will give you surface to 4000 ft above the FL for the whole route (hence your cranes).

If you instead went EGHP DCT SAM DCT OCK DCT EGLL you would get surface to FL plus 4000 ft on the climb and descent segments and FL +/- 4000 ft for the en-route segment.

Most people didn't do this and therefore assumed there was no height filtering.

Apologies for the silly designators but I'm not IR myself and don't have a chart to hand to come up with something more sensible.

Site speed is now much improved, however one thing that catches a lot of people out is that when they access a pdf (e.g. the AIP pages) nothing happens at all on the screen until the pdf has completed downloading so they think that it has locked up. Some of the pdf files are quite large and so may take some time. If you have the dial-up networking icon showing at the bottom right of the screen it will be flashing to indicate data trasfer is taking place which is useful as a check that it has not frozen.

Hope this is helpful

Mike