Flying as passenger in other student's lessons

[MonkeyPilot]

Hello

I'm a student PPL and this is my first post on pprune! I have had a few lessons now and Jimmy (my instuctor) has suggested that I come in the back of some of his other students' lessons and they sit in on mine, so that we can all learn from each others experiences.

I can see this is probably a good idea, but I'm worried it might be distracting having another student watching me - does anyone have any experiences or advice they can share before I tell my instructor yes or no?

Thanks!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Highly recommended and very thoughtful of you to consider the effects of 'sitting in.'

It's worth putting the effort in to prevent such problems because you get so much from watching others.
Doesn't matter whether it is for your PPL or after 20 years of airline flying - you can't help but learn.

You aren't 'tunnelled' into whatever the task is you are learning - you're developing an overview of the entire flight and its conduct. Your development of awareness and airmanship accelerates hugely - assuming you're not just staring out of the window and dribbling slightly:uhoh: :\ :oh:

Regards
Rob

[Lowtimer]

The RAF once tried this with the three-seat Percival Prentice trainer, but I gather they had trouble with the rear-most student being sick and gave it up as a bad job.

In my experience quite a lot of instructors / schools don't like this idea, perhaps because of the Prentice experience, perhaps because of additional possible legal liabilities, but from the point of view of those being taught it may be worthwhile in several ways. As back-seater, you can listen in to the RT and become more familiar with that. You can contribute to look-out (an extra pair of eyes is always a good thing). You will more rapidly become accustomed to the sensations of flying, even not very skilful flying, and will therefore acclimatise with a more robust tummy than might otherwise the the case. You will of coruse be able to hear the patter for most lessons twice, and this is bound to help it sink in. You will benefit from seeing other people make mistakes, and the subsequent conrrections, that you might not yourself happen to make when you cover that subject in the syllabus. From the "handling" student's point of view, it is good to have lessons with some weight in the back of a four-seater, to appreciate that it does fly a little differently. A lot of people never fly with anyone in the back until after they have a licence, and in various members of the PA-28 family it can make quite a difference to both handling and performance.

[brianh]

Particularly for PPL NAVEX it is excellent (provided you are declared essential crew.

The aim is to get 2 students who alternate the LH seat. The one in the back can listen to the radio calls (particularly CTA and GAAP in Oz), and navigate without flying the plane.

Many flying schools would see this as a threat to maximising the NAVEX flying hours of students - coz the one in the back alternating gains info quick. But, be adamant re doing it.

In Oz I think there are restictions on such activities pre GFPT for obvious reasons.

When I got my PPL and conversions / endorsements we were encouraged to all jump in. Virtually an ongoing load test, making the ultimate trip away flying much safer for the new pilot than learning in a 4 seater 2 up then loading in 4 people, full tanks, luggage, etc and killing oneself after getting the PPL.

Do it!
Cheers

[Mr Wolfie]

Jump at the chance. Loads of benefits for your XC flights:

You plan, fly and pay for trip away and other student does the same for the return journey. Therefore twice as long in the air for the same money.

When not the handing pilot, gives you plenty of time to concentrate on you nav practice in the back.

Gets you further away so you can experience transiting different airspace, landing at new airfields, etc.

Its good fun. Some of my most enjoyable flights during my training were flown in exactly this way. Fly to new airfield with instructor and fellow student. Have lunch, a chat and a laugh, then swap seats for the return journey home.

(Not sure it would be such a good idea for general handing lessons though).

Mr W.

[witchdoctor]

Highly recommended! This is how the school where I studied for my ATPL worked things, and I believe I probably learned more by watching from the back seat than the front. You have so much more time and capacity to monitor the flight AND listen to everything the instructor is saying. So often when learning, you will find that things pass you by due to the intense levels of concentration when flying the a/c, but as a back seat pax you won't have that distraction and you can think how you would be conducting the flight if you were up front.

Get in on as many flights as you can regardless of the sortie, including general handling. As has been mentioned above, it is almost twice the flying for the same amount of money, you get to visit potentially more locations (always good experience) as you won't necessarily keep returning to the same airfield at the end of each lesson, and you will make good friends very quickly with your flying partners.

You will learn a great deal from having this opportunity - grab it with both hands. Big pat on the back to your school for suggesting it.

[vancouv]

I think it's a great idea, as others have said, you can concentrate on things that may pass you by when you're trying to fly yourself.

From my own point of view, I don't like being in the back during handling exrecises like steep turns and stalls (actually I don't like being in the front either :yuk: ) but that's just a matter of preference.

It's certainly a good idea to fly a four seater fully laden - in fact that was insisted on as aprt of my check-out (I learned on C152's). You'd be surprised how different they feel with 4 on board

[witchdoctor]

Agree with Vancouv on that. Rather upset my twin examiner when I flew my multi engine class rating as it was the first time I had flown without a back seat pax. He was a bit of a big chap - much like myself:O - and I don't think he took too kindly to the "bloody hell!" and hard pull at the controls to get the nose up on take off.:}

Well worth trying every new experience you can (as long as it's safe).

[IO540-C4D5D]

brianh

"Many flying schools would see this as a threat to maximising the NAVEX flying hours of students "

That's a very good point which I have come across loads of times myself. With today's dwindling student numbers, some schools do absolutely whatever they can to maximise revenue.

I think having a passenger is a good idea provided he/she keeps quiet. The workload is such that the student is likely to forget about the passenger very quickly!

The passenger ought to make a small informal financial contribution to the student afterwards :O

[Northern Highflyer]

I did the back seat trips many times during my training and reciprocated the favour to other students. Helped immensely with the learning process without the pressure of flying the aeroplane.

Made some good friends too as has already been stated.

Me and a friend will be doing exactly that when we do the IMC later this year.

I would say go for it.

[hannny]

Has anyone had any bad experiences of having other students sitting in the back?

[18greens]

You ask if its distracting. Usually you are so focussed on whats going on in front you forget there is anyone in the back.

I've backseated a few rides and its amazing how much you can learn. They say you only have about 30% spare brain capacity once your hands are on the controls, how true that is.

A good friend sat in the back once and debriefed me afterwards saying did you realise you missed x radio calls and didn't set y on so and so. He went on a bit and I was a bit pisssed off with this over honest frank debrief but I'm glad he did it, I learned a lot. I then backseated him and watched him do almost exactly the same! There is so much going on in the front you often don't realise it.

The backseater should understand its your lesson and not to interrupt. They can also be useful as an extra lookout especially on Instrument training.

Oh and whats wrong with staring out of the window dribbling slightly. Sometimes its great fun just to watch the earth go by without worrying about checks, radios, times , maps etc etc

[witchdoctor]

Good point there 18 greens. Some of the more useful debriefs are the ones given by my flying partner, rather than the instructor. Sometimes the FI can be a little reluctant to give too much negative feedback, whereas a good friend is able to be a little more critical (especially in the pub over a pint or three). It also helps that as another trainee, you both generally have the same concerns and are likely to focus in more on the smaller details as opposed to the bigger picture, which is perhaps where the FI will concentrate.

Flying partners are great to have, as once you have that lovely licence, you also now have somebody relatively competent and trustworthy (hopefully) to join you on flights and monitor your flying without all the extra cost of an FI. It will let you relax a little and enjoy things more, knowing there are 2 pairs of eyes on everything, but without all the pressure of it being your FI.

[Andrew M]

How do you feel if a non-flyer was to come along and observe - such as a family member or friend, even partner - because they have an interest (a REAL interest) in starting a PPL and they want to experience being in the air first.

Or even if you want to "show off" - would you feel comfortable ??

I wouldn't - I'd rather have a stranger from the club there - at least it widens your circle of aquaintances in the aviation world. Being critised by another student isn't as bad as the know-it-all instructor doing it - I experienced that in the classroom at school - and it bloody works ! :D

[mad_jock]

I actively get some students to take family on a xc.

Especially if they have kids and there partner isn't confident.

It actaully adds a fair bit of airmanship to the lesson.

Lots of briefs on child control on a busy airstrips to both parents.

Also gives thier partners confidence of what a trip is like with an instructor on board.

I think its safer to take the kid up for the first time with an instrutor on board. If it plays up at least someone can monitor flight safety while the parents deal with it. Low hours with a tantrum in the back, partner nervous with the whole situation. Not good.

As for taking friends up. Not to keen on that. And a big no no before going solo and after that general handeling lessons (this is of course dual flights). Again it depends on the student and the friends. Mature student with mature friends still not keen but they get 1 chance. Teenage students with teenage friends no chance.

Other students I have no problems with at all.

MJ