Complex Differences Training Questions

[Circuit Basher]

I know this contains several old chestnuts, but I felt it worth checking before I do anything specific...... sorry if I bore anyone! :) I have searched the CAA Web site and JAR FCL 1, but sort of got bogged down in the fact that information was everywhere! I have searched PPRuNe and think I have some of the answers, but will try them out on the community before putting them into practice.

For the Sherburn fly-in, I'm looking at alternative aircraft as a result of the unavailability of the Fuji I usually fly, I'm looking at using a C182RG. I need complex differences training for retractable and for VP Prop and there is a PPL at the local club who is willing to do this, with an instructor who will fly with me for the final hour to do a checkout.

Question 1 - The Training

JAR FCL1.310 Subpart H states:

All instructors shall hold at least the licence, rating and qualifications for which instruction is being given (unless specified otherwise) and shall be entitled to act as pilot in command of the aircraft during such training.

My Understanding / Interpretation
No mention of a non-FI rated PPL doing the training. I was led to believe that 5 hrs differences training (although this does not seem to be a mandatory minimum figure according to the threads below) can be conducted by anyone with experience of the difference being taught with an FI doing a check ride and signing the log book.
Differences Training Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75440)
Differences Training Thread 2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73787)

Question 2 - Logging the Time
I assume that before the flight, I just agree with the PPL doing the training exactly who will be logging the time as P1 and the other doesn't log anything. When I have an instructor alongside me, then I can log it as P U/T. The checkout does not count as a flight test and I should not even think of logging P1S!!

Question 3 - Content of Checkride
No specific mention, but assume it would just be the normal circuits / rejoins / emergency procedures.

Question 4 - Bi-Annual Renewal
I am approaching the stage where I have to consider what to do about my bi-annual renewal (due Aug 03), so should have an hour with an instructor. I am assuming that the complex type checkride will be more than valid for this purpose. If the instructor I fly with is also a CAA examiner, then I take it that he can also sign my licence renewal and the associated form (the number escapes me - is it FCL150CJAR??) that is posted to the Belgrano. That is my understanding - was told rather heatedly by one other PPL who is an ex-CAA employee that this most definitely was not the case. The PPL who will do my training agreed with me that he could see no problem with the person who conducts the flight being the same person who signs the licence. (Help, BEagle!!!).
Bi-Annual Renewal Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42539)

I know this is stirring up old (and ongoing) discussions, but hope you will bear with an aging old PPL who gets easily confused!

[FlyingForFun]

Q1: This is not my understanding. Training can only be given by an instructor. However, since there is no minimum (I think the 5 hours was a minimum under CAA, but not under JAR), if your friend happened to show you the ropes, the chances are you would require less formal training. Assuming that he doesn't teach you any bad habits that you need to un-learn, of course.

Q2: If you are flying with your PPL friend, can can not log the time because you will not have had the differences training that you need to be able to log time in this aircraft. He is P1, you are a passenger.

With an instructor, it depends on your interpretation of the rules. The rules don't say you can't log P1US, but they don't say you can, either. To stay safe, I'd log P1UT.

Q3: I guess every instructor does it differently, but this is how my checkout on a PA28R went:

For retractible undercarriage, you should cover lowering the gear as part of your downwind checks, checking the gear is down on base leg, and checking the gear is down on final. You will cover when to retract the gear on take-off, as well as the need to retract it immediately (as an automatic reaction) on go-around. You should also be shown how to manually extend the gear if the automatic mechanism fails. And maybe some other type-specific stuff (e.g. how to differentiate between a blown bulb and an unsafe condition on some types...) You will be taught the meaning of, and the values of, speeds such as Vlo and Vle.

The variable-pitch prop training should cover the reasons for using a v.p prop, and a basic idea of how it works. The run-up checks will include cycling the prop. You must learn the order in which to move the various levers and the dangers of getting this wrong, and it must become instinctive to move them in the correct order. You will probably be shown some "by-the-numbers" ways of flying the various stages of flight (take-off, climb, cruise-climb, descent, landing) as well as some more downwind and base-leg checks (the base leg checks may be left until final at a noise-sensitive airfield), but you should also familiarise yourself with the relevant parts of the POH so that you are not restricted to flying by the numbers which your instructor shows you.

There will (or should) be an element of ground-school as well as the actual flying for all of these.

This is all in addition to all the normal stuff you will cover for a type check-out, e.g. circuits, stalls, steep turns, PFLs, etc. The biggest problem I had converting to the Arrow was not the complex systems, but the extra few knots in the circuit.

Q4: The bi-annual 1-hour flight with an instructor can be any hour-long flight at all, so yes this can count. There are recommended guidelines as to what should be included, but no rules. But since the guidelines include things like stalls, steep turns and PFLs, which you should cover for any new type-checkout, your training should be a perfect opportunity.

Good luck!

FFF
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[Circuit Basher]

If you are flying with your PPL friend, [you] can not log the time because you will not have had the differences training that you need to be able to log time in this aircraft. He is P1, you are a passenger.
This maybe raises an interesting point. If he's not got a CPL, then is he allowed to do anything more than 50/50 cost sharing for the hire of the aircraft? I maybe had best no pursue that one.... ;)

[TangoZulu]

Hi CB

Have you finished your IMC rating yet ??

Interesting point on the biannual renewal - you mention the need to send off a form to the Belgrano - having had my licence renewed in March, there was no form to fill in that I could find, just the appropriate page in the licence. The examiner who signed it made no mention of a form either ???

As far as the complex training is concerned I was led to believe it was 5 hours - but not sure who by - is this not a similar question to doing checkouts of members within a flying group?

Rgds

TZ

[Circuit Basher]

TZ - never got back to doing it after the disaster of my club @ EGHH losing my log book / licence 4 yrs ago! Had a 6 mth break in training which means I really need to go back to stage 1. Mrs CB seems to be happy to pay for us to have a holiday in FLA (yes, I know all the arguments!!) so that she can sun herself by the pool whilst I sweat my rocks off getting an IMC!! [FAA IR option is attractive but we're somewhat lacking in the flying voucher dept at the moment!!].

PS Don't drop dead with surprise if you see my name in the Wilts / Hants area in the near future - various options being considered with respect to my beer voucher supplier!! ;)

[StrateandLevel]

Lets keep this simple.

You want to get signed of for VP prop and retractable gear. This can only be done by a FI.

There is no specified time or content for the differences training so the FI will wish to see that you are competent before signing your log book. In most cases this will require sufficient GH to allow you to handle the additional engine levers and show that you understand how both systems work.

It will count as the Dual Flight, and as you quite rightly say, if the FI is an examiner he can sign your C of R at the same time.

Log as Dual and instructors signature in your book is all thats required.

[Keygrip]

CB, TZ and all....

The form that was supposed to be signed by the examiner is this one (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1119Iss6.pdf)

They are recorded at the CAA - colleague of mine was told that his MEP was not current (fax had gone astray) when he asked about some relevant question.

[KCDW]

Having looked at the application form – I’m more confused than ever with the “Complex Rating”.

Is the form shown by Keygrip, the application for a Complex Rating? I thought it was just a sign-off on type in your log-book.

On the form, presumably next to ‘Type Rating (please specify)’ you write in “Complex”. Is this the case?

Now reading FFF’s excellent desciption, the key components are retractable gear and a wobbly prop. So what if you learned on a Piper Dakota for example, wobbly, but not retractable? What then?

Thanks

KCDW

[M14P]

I think you'll find that the training required is for any 'difference' within your SEP class rating - i.e. there is no separate class for a 'complex' like the FAA system.

Therefore, a PA28-236 as described might cover you for VP/CS props and perhaps turbocharging but (obviously) not for retractable U/C.

I annotate all of the separate 'differences' when I sign 0in case future viewers of the logbook are unfamiliar with the type.

[BEagle]

Strateandlevel has provided the correct answer.

One minor point - as the training isn't for a defined 'rating', it must be at least 1 hr to count as the 'dual training flight with an instructor' requirement if you're re-validating your SEP Class Rating by Experience.

[Circuit Basher]

Thanks, all - thought I wasn't too far off in my understanding, but thought it worth checking with the gurus!

KCDW - that form's the puppy! Had one of these done last time I renewed, so was expecting that!

First complex lesson is at 0900Z today, so may start an Aerbabe style diary (although no-one's got as much style as Aerbabe [allegedly!] ;) ).

PS Aerbabe - what's happened to the microlight / Chippy diaries, or did the spoilsport bank manager intervene??!

[Sensible]

At the risk of being accused of hi-jacking this thread, does anybody know if a CAA license holder who has obtained FAA "Tailwheel" and "Complex" endorsements legally entitled to fly tailwheel and complex airplanes in the UK without contacting the CAA or being "signed off" by a CAA instructor?

[Brooklands]

CB,

I hope you enjoyed your first flight in the 182RG

Its one of my favorite planes, and one of the few four seaters that you really can get four people and a sensible ammount of fuel into. It will cruise at 140 knots, but approach at 70.

It's got a very good short field performance - have a look in the POH for the details.

One of the handy tips that I've picked up flying the 182 is to lower the first sage of flap when you lower the landing gear (the limit speeds are the same) - the trim changes pretty much cancel each other out, so you dont' need to retrim. As you'll have discouvered by now the 182 is pretty heavy in pitch, and you do need to keep it in trim. Wait until you do your first go-around you'll find you need a pretty hefty push on the control column to prevent her from pitching up too much.

I found it quite a handful to start with (having only flown C172s and PA28s before then), and a took a while to get to grips with it.

[Fly Stimulator]

Just to muddy the waters a little further, should I have a VP/CS sign-off to fly a Cirrus SR20? It has a wobbly prop, but no separate control for it, just the single engine power lever.

Logic would suggest that since there isn't anything much extra to forget to do, I shouldn't need any extra signatures to do it. Is this a safe assumption?

[Circuit Basher]

Thanks for the best wishes, Brooklands, but due to delays in getting insurance paperwork from the owner (this is the first time the club have tried to use this a/c for training and it's only leased from a local owner), they weren't prepared to go ahead and use it for training (OK, the pedants might argue familiarisation!!).

Still, got current in their 172 (and got the feel for a 172 again, having not flown one for around 4.5 yrs!), practiced entry / exit routes from EDI zone that I hadn't used before (including flying in over the city centre - land clear for that would have to be the airport!!). Hopefully will start the 182 in earnest next week.

[Circuit Basher]

Sorry to dig this one out of the pit, but felt that it was worth an update and something to 'close' the topic (until the next time someone asks the same question!).

After a lot of delays getting access to the C182RG that was originally planned, I finally flew a C182 (non RG) yesterday for the first time. Interesting experience - was very surprised by the weight of the control forces in pitch on the ground (will have to visit the gym a bit more!! ;)) - not too bad in flight, but I can see why Brooklands was emphasising the trim (especially on touch and goes!).

Due to local difficulties in contacting the 'nominated instructor' for checkouts on the aircraft, I flew with the aircraft owner (non FI), who had been slightly misled into thinking that he could do checkouts for anyone who wished to fly the a/c, whether they had complex training or not.

I wasn't comfortable with this being totally kosher, so have been doing some checking in LASORS on Differences Training. I now believe that the situation may be summarised as:

If you have previously been trained on a complex type with VP prop and had an instructors signature in your log book to that effect, plus you have flown on the aircraft with that difference within the last 2 years, then all that is required is a check ride for the group / school (does not have to be FI). If you have not been trained in operation of a VP prop, then you need an instructors signature in your log book.

The content / duration of the differences training is not specified. Some instructors from other similar threads on PPRuNe state that they are happy to do a ground brief / demonstration and not do any flying to support the signature.

Under the old CAA rules, there is not a specific rating for complex types - there is thus a grey area for those old f@rt$ (like me! :)) who hold CAA licences as to whether this is required or not. IMHO, an hour or two spent on training would be cheaper than an insurance excess payment!!

Attached is the source document for this summary, which is at
LASORS Section F (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_F.pdf)

EXTRACT FROM LASORS SECTION F TYPE AND CLASS RATINGS (AEROPLANES AND HELICOPTERS)

DIFFERENCES TRAINING

In order to change to a different variant of aeroplane within the same type or class rating, further differences training or familiarisation (see definitions below) is required with the appropriate type, class or flight instructor. Completion of this differences training is to be recorded in the pilot’s logbook and countersigned by the instructor.

Except for the SE Piston Class Rating (for which differences training is valid for an indefinite period), if a variant or different type has not been flown for a period exceeding 2 years from the completion of the differences training, further training or a proficiency check on that type or variant, recorded in the pilot’s logbook will be required to re-validate the licence privileges.

The complex features for which differences training is required are;

retractable undercarriage
variable pitch propellers
turbo/super charged engines
tailwheel
cabin pressurization

Therefore, if an individual has not previously flown an aircraft fitted with any or all of the above features, differences training would be required. This would then cover you for other SE piston aircraft fitted with the same features. Differences training completed on a ME Piston Class Rating i.e. with VP props, retractable gear etc. will negate the need to complete differences training for SE piston class rating aircraft with those particular features, however, differences training completed on a SE piston aeroplane does not provide equivalent qualification on ME piston aeroplanes.

Differences Training is required:

1. When operating another variant of aeroplane of the same type or another type of the same class currently operated; or

2. When a change of equipment and/or procedures on types or variants currently operated, requires additional knowledge and training on an appropriate training device.

Hope this doesn't cause another flurry of excitement, but felt it was worth a clarification post.

I also realise, that knowing what I now know, I shall have to delete yesterday's entry from my log book which had me as P1 ;):D

[IO540]

I asked a similar question to an IR Examiner a year or so ago, and his reply was there is no set differences training syllabus.

He even said that when going e.g. PA28 -> TB20 (retractable with a VP prop) a ground briefing could be legally sufficient, in cases where the pilot has received the experience elsewhere (e.g. flying with a type-experienced pilot who happens to not be an instructor)

Let's face it, moving up the lever with the wheel-shaped knob on it isn't complicated, and a VP prop isn't much harder. It's the procedures (flying more by numbers) which really change.

[englishal]

Sensible,

If you have the FAA endorsements then you can exercise those privileges on a G registered aircraft no problem.

EA

[Flap40]

CB,

ref those of us who originally held CAA licences, my understanding is that if you had flown VP/retract/tailwheel/turbo (any or all) under the old system, then you have "Grandfather rights" and keep them.

Anyone agree or knows different:confused: