Do airlines care which school you go to?

[dannyweaver]

Just wondering.... Do recruiting airlines judge an applicant on which school they've done their training at?

For example, if you said on your application that you had trained for your fATPL at ,say, CCAT or OAT, are you any more likely to get an interview/job than someone who trained at a smaller, less well known school, or don't they mind, so long as it was an approved course? (I'm on about before they've met you or given you any tests or anything).

Also, when I was at the Flight Training Show at Heathrow earlier in April, the guy from BA that did the seminar on what they look for when they recruit pilots said that certain flying schools are able to recommend you to BA (if you're good enough!), but he wouldn't say which ones. I had a sore throat and completely lost my voice whilst I was there (just my luck!), so I couldn't ask the flying schools if they could recommend to BA. I'm guessing Cabair and Oxford do it (didn't they run the old BA cadet schemes?); does anyone know of any others?

[witchdoctor]

Personally I don't believe they do, at least not as a main selection criteria. The schools on the other hand would almost certainly have you believe this, but I doubt if anybody could provide definitive proof in this respect in the present market conditions.

It may be used as a factor to decide between two applicants who have similar experience, have demonstrated similar levels of competency in a sim check and given equally good interviews. But, by the same token, so could the place you were born, your school, university or any one of a hundred different factors.

Best thing you can do is concentrate on getting above average grades in both flight tests and groundschool, a good report from your FTO, keep current to as high a standard as poss, demonstrate a well-rounded background outside of aviation and knock em dead at interview.

Remember, an exceptional candidate is still exceptional regardless of who trained them.:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

As a general point, I believe that people will feel comfortable with people of a similar background. So if you are up against a panel, the majority of whom came through the sponsorship system, then they are going to be more interested in candidates from a similar system - probably integrated in this day an age. Given, that the known big names will add more familiarity; Oxford and BAe will be a good bet.

Pilots who came up the hard way (and there are more and more these days) will be most impressed by the self-improvers, the oldies, the can-do and made it happen types regardless of school or background.

Obviously this is such a gross generalisation but I cannot escape from the conclusion that if you are Oxford or BAe integrated then you have an advantage. If not regardless of integrated, modular or school then be prepared to go that extra mile.

This does not mean that Oxford/BAe students are generally better able, just generally better positioned. As a self-improver, I do not welcome this realisation.

[Chuffer Chadley]

I'm inclined to agree that people from the better-known schools may have a tiny edge in interviews in the ways that HWD and Witchdoctor have mentioned. However, I suggest that the financial benefit that could be accrued by attending a smaller and cheaper school might be worth a little more in the grand scale of things! Add to that the life experience cv-fillers that can be gotten by doing bits of flying/training in exotic parts of the world, and I personally feel that the self-improving modular student might just be better off.

Just MHO!

Ciao
CC

[Touch'n'oops]

I am currently at BAe in Jerez.

Just two months ago GB Airways popped its head around the door and ask HT if he had any pilots for them. So, the top 3 lads CVs were handed over and they are now in the process of TR for the 73NG.

So it does happen, but not as often as I would like!!!

[paddy_22002]

Dannyweaver,
The schools that have made recommendations in the past to BA are;
Oxford, Bae, West michegan, Cabair, NLS and KLM (both Dutch)

Good luck,
Paddy

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just as counterbalance. I know of at least half a dozen small operators that will not touch someone from the top 3 FTO's because of bad experiences in the past when the world was CAP509 or self improver. Its an unfair world. I also know several flying schools that only ever hire instructors who have trained with them so by going down the OATS/BAE/CABAIR route you exclude yourself from some high turnover flying school instructional posts.

That said, when GB or the likes do pick up the phone, its very nice to be in the right place at the right time. Bit like buying lottery tickets every week though - expensive and very long odds.

Choose yout training based on your needs, your stregths and your budget. Forget about employability post graduation as there are so many variables its all down to luck.

Good luck,

WWW

[aircharterservice]

BFC, at Bristol own an air taxi / exec outfit called Centreline (9 x PA34, 4 x PA31, 1 x Caravan, and one BE200. They certainly crew most of their contracts and ad-hocs from people who trained with them.

[African Drunk]

I believe that it is an advantage to have gone to the big schools and if I had my time again I would have gone. However having seen Cap509ers in GA I understand why some GA operators don't like them as there training is too structured and they tend not to be flexiable enough.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thank you aircharterservice. Thats exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

The chances of you getting an airline job straight out of training are always long and now they are out of sight.

Whereas there is always a bit of movement further down the food chain for various reasons. The BEST strategy at the moment would be to pitch up at somewhere like BFS and excel. Pass everything first time. Arrive early leave late and help your coursemates. Make the tea. Laugh at the CFI's jokes and buy your instructor beer.

Become known as a switched on all round good chap.

You then have a very effective IN to a small charter outfit. Offer to ride as safety pilot/bag carrier etc. Fast forward 2 years and you've got 1000hrs Twin IFR experience under your belt and a few war stories.

Just the thing many old hands around these parts have been telling you is so valuable.

Suddenly the airlines will stop laughing at you. Suddenly you old instructor will by now be in airline BigShinyJet and he can put words on ears. Or use their Recommend A Pilot scheme.

Whammo - hello - a proper airline interview invitation. And all because you sowed the seeds a couple of years ago by targetting a FTO which did other things and you always had one eye on those other things.

Its worked for a lot of people in the past.

But they don't give out brochures at fancy London flying conferences.

WWW

[Crosswind Limits]

Wise words from the Welshman. I wish I had done so when I trained instead of "wasting" thousands of pounds on training with the big boys!

[Pilot Pete]

African Drunk,

That's a bit of a mass generalisation about CAP509ers in GA. Witchdoctor has already pointed out that a good guy is a good guy wherever trained. There are 509ers who are just as good in GA as any self improver, just like there are plenty of self improvers who make excellent airline pilots.................

Pick the training regime that suits you best. Some need the spoon fed integrated, full time environment. Others like the flexibility of self improver, doing what they want when they want. Plenty of considerations need to be taken into account when deciding where to go. Cost being one of the biggest. It is unfortunate that whatever route you choose you end up restricting your options afterwards in some way, as WWW has pointed out, but again, it works both ways and everyone ends up with a restriction on who they can apply to and be accepted by.

PP

[aircharterservice]

Bear in mind also that a lot of small charter operators dont plan on being small charter operators for ever, a C406 operator in STN and a Bandit operator in SEN a few years ago are now fliteline and Titan (who have just got a 757 I believe). Both Airmed and Centreline have a caravan or 2, Centreline have a Kingair, 5 years from now who knows what you could be flying for them.

Some airlines actively recruit from specific air taxi operators, jumping in a Seneca, single crew, borderline minimas and flying to a snowbound airport in Scandinavia at MTOW would scare the £$$% out of many shiny jet jockey.

[Snigs]

Any chance of a job then Martin? I did my IR with you and live locally!! :p ;)

[scroggs]

Do airlines care which school you go to?

No.

Scroggs

[High Wing Drifter]

Some airlines actively recruit from specific air taxi operators, jumping in a Seneca, single crew, borderline minimas and flying to a snowbound airport in Scandinavia at MTOW would scare the £$$% out of many shiny jet jockey.
Did you mean it would scare anybody with low currency/hours on type or specifically jet jockeys?

:p

[aircharterservice]

Ok, Choosing words carefully High Wing. Once in an airline job and away from the grass routes flying, it would be outside most longer toothed flyers current view of commercial flying and would be advantageous to have this experience.

:cool:

Brain hurts now!!!

Oh, and no I am not Martin, but I hear he will be recruiting very shortly from....ahem......sources unknown....ahem

:E

[Swinging the Lead]

Scroggs,

I was told my a member of the interview panel for your airline that they did care,

3 - points for being an ex-crab
2 - points for a 509er from a big school
1 - point for a self improver

but then by the time pilots apply for your airline they will have 1000s of hours , and he didn't say how many other points there were.

[African Drunk]

Scroggs

There are still airlines out there who will only take applicants with under 1000hrs if they are 509ers. This shows that someone in those airlines must care. Also the school seems to be important to organisations that can get you into airlines such as CTC and Gecat.

Pilot Pete accept that was generalisation but it is mt belief training is too structured and not enough true solo time ie spic.

[Pilot Pete]

African Drunk,

Again, I take your point, but I think your view is a little flawed, if I may be so bold?

I did a CAP509 upgrade course back in 1998/1999 and left with a grand total of 36hrs twin time in a Seneca. I was in the right place at the right time and managed to get a job flying air taxi for a company I had had no previous contact with. Within a month and a half of starting with that company I as signed off on Cessna 310/402 and 404, the owner and Chief Pilot commenting I was just as good as any FI he had ever taken on (he had always previously only ever taken 700+ hr FIs for jobs). Now I was no star, just your average Joe, and many of my peers at OATS were every bit as competent as me. So, with around 300hrs TT I was flying single crew with 9 pax into EGLL in a 404. It was fantastic and to be totally honest I don't think I would have been any more competent flying a big piston twin after another 500hrs in a single, but there you go. What I do know is that when I had 700hrs TT I was a lot more competent than your average FI (no offence to the FIs, just that I'd now gained 500hrs on various piston twins, in all weathers IFR, into big and small airfields throughout northern Europe and the UK.)

So opinions need to based around facts to have any value and I'm not trying to argue, just to point out a fact that contradicts the opinion.

Sadly the route I took is closed off to Wannabes with low hours now and they require 700hrs minimum to fly air taxi single crew under JAR, so it could be that in a roundabout way you are correct in that the air taxi operators don't like low hours guys now, but mainly because they are no use to them as they are unemployable.

PP

[African Drunk]

PP

I am not against OAT if I had the chance again I would have gone there. I advise people, who ask me, that if they can afford it to go there. However I have worked at big COM schools and believe there is a too structured approach. Logging P1 in a twin while an instructor sits next to you means you always have a back up which you do not have with true P1. Many of my friends and colleagues who went to OATetc said that when they went into GA they were not comfortable with the different environment. These schools did not set up to provide GA pilots they are trying to provide low hour pilots to airlines a job they do very well. I do believe that as a rule many GA operators do not favour 509ers unless they have other experience and look at the air taxi companies in the UK you will see this has been the case (even before 750hrs came in). In your case I have no doubt you where a very good air taxi pilot but in my experience a self-improver pilot can initially be better suited to GA than 509. There are bad pilots coming out of both systems so I again accept this is a generalisation but I can only go by my experience.

AD

[scroggs]

Swinging The Lead

I'm not sure who you talked to, but I don't think there's much truth in what you were told! However, there was a very brief period when Virgin accepted applicants for long-haul Second Officer (cruise pilot). There was also a period when the airline recruited co-pilots for the Virgin Sun operation, and in both of these periods the airline, when looking at low-hour civilian-trained pilots, stated a preference (not a requirement) for CAP509-ers. That route is no longer valid, but, even then, stating a preference for a particular format of training was not the same as stating a preference for certain schools. The fact that some airlines still refer to CAP509 training is testimony only to the ignorance of their recruiters.

The fact is that airlines care only that you have the qualifications to make you eligible for whatevr they are offering. Where you obtained those qualifications is irrelevant, so long as the training was legal and carried out by a bona-fide school according to current rules and regulations.

If you seriously think that airlines like Virgin greatly care what school (or whether you were mod, integrated, CAP509 or whatever) you went through when their minimum requirements are for 3000 hours with 1500 hours commercial or military jet, you have misjudged the system!

Scroggs

[batty]

I would agree that airlines like Virgin dont give a jot what school you went to, however they require in the region of 2500 hours before you even get a look in. By that time who cares what school you were at, you have experience and thats far more important.

HOWEVER

The operators that take low houred pilots fresh out of training , ie Ryanair, FlyBe ( who very recently were asking for OATS recommendations) for example do care. They activly recruit from these schools and look for recomendations from them. Why? Because they know the full scope of their training and have previous experience of pilots from the schools. I am not saying that the pilots from these schools are any better than any others, they are however a known quantity, and this in turn leads to less failures, and a saving to the company.

I would agree that the chances of getting a job through a school recommendation are very very slim however....

At the end of the day its what got me my first step on the ladder.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I would judge that in the climate of the next few years its better to be training at a smaller school with an AOC operation than a major FTO whose phone sometimes rings with a Chief Pilot on the other end.

In the good times then this reverses.

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No because there are some right muppets who go through BAE. You could be one of them.

There are similar muppet ratios at all the major FTO's. Just going somewhere impresses no-one. Perhaps passing all exams above 90% and all flight tests first time plus getting a glowing reference from the Instructors and CFI might impress someone a tiny bit.

But not much.

Flying out of say White Waltham and getting to know that bloke over there in the corner, Gerry - lovely chap, who is a senior training captain with Large Jet Airways, might do you a power more good.

Choosing schools that you think will get you a job is like trying to teach girls to throw properly. Difficult and pointless.

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Johnny - BA have sent their cadets to Kiddlington, Bournemouth, Jerez and Cranfield and West Michigan in my memory.

They ain't loyal to one or another and regularly move around to secure the best terms.

REMEMBER that you are not BA. BA can waltz in the door and get a very different deal to the one you can sign up to. Their cadets get modified ground and air syllabi. They get extra bits added in and work to slightly different timescales. Their cadets might only be trained by the more senior instructors, they might have priority access to some resources. They will have coaching by BA staff charged with administering the scheme. They will be subject often to more thorough examination and feedback through BA stipulated paperwork and mechanisms.

Just because BA or any airline choose school X for their cadet scheme does not mean school X offers the best 'open to the general public' Frzn ATPL course.

When I was an innocent young Wannabe I used to be impressed by the fact that BA chose School X for their cadets.

Then I paid for my own training. Then I became a flying instructor at Jerez. Now I work in the airline business.

I realise now that I almost made the mistake of choosing a training provider because BA had. There may be many good reasons for choosing OATS or Jerez, but, because BA have used them recently is not one of them.

WWW

[Snigs]

All of you young wannabes should take note of the above post. I don't always agree with what WWW says (I'm no sycophant ;) ) but that post is spot on. :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Why thank you Snigs - I think I ran out of sycophants years ago though ;)

WWW

[batty]

I decided on the route that I took at the end of the day because I was a late starter (33-34) with a family and healthy mortgage to service. I didnt feel that I could afford the time that I thought the modular route would take me, but I could afford the integrated costs.

The integrated route allowed me to consentrate all of my efforts full time on the studies, and see my family once every two weeks.

The choise of school was a hard one and taken because I felt THAT AT THAT TIME the school I chose offered the best options for me. I was lucky and it all worked out in the end.

Every Wannabee has different reasons for choosing the route that they take. Each school will meet differing requirements of the individual students, be it time, cost etc etc... Choose the school that meets with your needs. You are spending alot of money make your decision wisely, and only after you have looked at what you need and how each school best meets your requirements.

The reasons BA or whoever chose this or that school are different to yours and will not neccessarily get you a job with them. In fact I do not know of one student who got a job with BA because they went to the same school as their students, but I am sure someone will correct me.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I know of one self sponsored chap from Jerez in 2000 who got a recommendation to BA which got him an interview which he passed. I believe he was then scheduled to join a BA cadet course for a JOC course. Sept 11th happened and I am unsure as whether this ended or suspended his progress.

He was an exceptional student though. Almost a freak in the nicest possible way. Some fantastic degree in Incredibly Hard Sums, a GAPAN part sponsorship and he aced the course. Makes you sick ;-) but a nice enough chap.

So it was pretty rare. Back in the heydays of cadet recruitment.

Perhaps now that nobody is sponsored it will all come down to self determination and grit.

WWW

[P T Flea]

I think that WWW is right. You can't choose an FTO on the off chance that a chief pilot happens to put their head round the door asking for some cv's. I think that could be included in one of the many reasons for choosing an FTO but probably shouldn't be the most important consideration.

As most of us will be aware though BA stated recently at the Professional Flight Training Seminar at Heathrow:
- They recruit Direct Entry Pilots (1500hrs + and type rated).
- They obviously take in pilots when they are sponsoring.

AND

- They take self sponsored cadets from ab-initio courses from selected FTOs.

Obviously a good contact inside BA would be more favourable but failing that (as in the case of 99.9% of wannabes) I know where I would rather be training given the choice.

PT
:ok:

[nasib]

How is the instructing going, oh old and wise one?

[carbonfibre]

Doing my IR at BFC in June, any chance of carrying the bags on some flights when not in the Box?

:D :eek: :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Fine thanks.

WWW

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Bit of Instructing in our spare time..???......Come on then spill the beans.:8

[nasib]

I should clarify that my previous message was to Snigs not WWW.

I am not sure I know who WWW is.

Nasib

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ahh, I see.

PT - its all very well for some BA bod to SAY they take self sponsored people from selected FTO's but that needs a healthy dose of clarification.

a) It only happens when they are actually running a cadet course which they haven't been doing for some time now.

b) For every hundred cadets they run they must only take maybe one or two self sponsored guys to replace cadet drop outs etc. If you think the odds on a winning a BA cadetship are long then the odds on them asking you to join them following self sponsorship are phenomenal.

c) Selected FTO's means any of the big 3 and would still include West Michigan if they did JAA training and SFT if they hadn't gone bust.

d) You'd have to graduate from the course as head of your class with an impecabble records - better in fact than any actual BA cadet would need, sometimes they only just scrape through!

e) They aren't recruiting now and the likelihood of them recruiting inexperienced pilots in the future is not assured by any means.

f) Regardless of how well you performed on your course and how suitable you were you would need to be graduating in the same month that BA actually needed a few cadet replacements so the random nature of timing is involved as well.


It would make more sense to pick a FTO based on the attractiveness of their carparking facilities than on their ability to land you a place on the end of a BA cadet course.

WWW

[Snigs]

Oi Nasib, less of the "wise" bit matey!! ;)

I'm loving it, thanks. :D

Check your PM. :ok: