advice for a BA cadet with 200 hours

[SenecaSoarer]

Hi folks,
I've just finished basic training (have CPL frozen ATPL, IR, 200 hours) on the BA cadet scheme in Michigan. I want to increase my hours (preferably on a Piper Seneca) while I wait for a contract with BA (could be some time). I'm willing to travel ANYWHERE to get more hours. My question is: does anyone know of companies (bush flying, air taxis, charter etc) willing to take on pilots with my experience?
Cheers

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You HAVE to be joking..?! As far as free multi hours are concerned you have a better chance of winning the lottery.

Seriously.

WWW

[Vref +50]

Duh, just why should an air taxi, bush or other company wish to employ you for free never mind a wage?

You are a liability.

You've only ever flown from a handful of airfrields, mostly where you have been before in aircraft with which you are familiar. You have had barely 20hrs in the air without someone sat next to you.

In multi hours time you have proved only that you can just hold onto an aircraft in good weather condition for less than 2 hours and one engine hailure. That is hardly going to impress the owner of a commercial operation.

In his eyes you are crap and even if he wanted to employ you his insurers would not allow it.

So. My advice is either to take your hopelessly tiny flying experience and become a PPL flying instructor or to find some bull**** job to pay you whilst you wait for BA to pick up. And I would make it a good job because the £1.57p BA shares hit today means that it will be a LONG wait.

Sorry proto Nigel.

VREF

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Vref +50 ]

[LRdriver]

Bit harsh there huh ref..

Other option is to become a CFI or try pipeline patrol. If you need hours try ferrying singles across the atlantic.
There seem to be cutthroat ferry outfits that see 200TT wannabees as a dime a dozen so it is not a big loss if you should ditch.
What ever you do make sure you get paid!!

[Vref +50]

Oh right - My Mistake! With barely 200hrs you shoudl consider tackling a trans-atlantic journey. CHRIST ON A BIKE out of the 300 odd GA pilots I know only 1 is capable of doing that trip safely and even he would only consider it as a Summer trip in extreme circumstance...

Just becuase BA thought you were great at interview do not expect the rest of the aviation community to agree. In fact your BA sponsorship is more likely to slam shut more doors than it opens.

Face it. Your flying skills are very limited. There are lots of good pilots looking for work at the moment. You should not expect much. Much includes money for flying aeroplanes...

Realisty bites and all that,

VREF

[presbycusis]

Oh boy - how gratifying to see such helpful replies from supposedly professional people in response to a genuine, if maybe a little naive request from a young person who finds himself in a completely unexpected situation as a result of the events of last month. Contrary to some peoples opinion, the majority of these cadets are not arrogant prima donnas - just normal enthusiastic wannabes who happen to have been able to pass a selection process.

I may be mistaken, but I thought the first "P" in Pprune stood for professional. How disappointing to be proved wrong.

[cyclops]

Of course Vref, you must have known it all when you had 200 hours. A pity you have forgotten how you felt, a pity you cannot be more charitable with your replies.

[cln 7r]

Two things

1) Being in your position is not as bad as most ie: £40000 in debt struggling to keep current and feed yourself and if BA are going to take you on i wouldnt worry that much.

2) VREF +50 All it required was about three lines of the complete B*****ks you wrote get a life and try to be constuctive in future. :mad:

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: cln 7r ]

[Base leg]

SenecaSoarer -
full marks for asking in the 1st place-
ignore the abuse and take the advice-
an Instructor Rating would seem the way to go-
as for multi hours- that's the catch 22

[Vref +50]

Oh, so is my heart supposed to bleed for some lcuky little blighter who got a BA FULL ATPL
and now has now job to go to..?
Well my big fat hairy &rse to that matey boy. I know dozens of lads and lasses who have gained exactly the same quals at THEIR OWN EXPENSE and are not whining about job offers at this time.


They are merely keeping their heads down and getting on with it. Anything else is a sickening atttempt to turn a political event into a commercial opportunity...

VREF

[CaptAirProx]

Vref - I didn't detect any whining in the original post. Just an innocent request from a person who as you said is reasonably inexperience in the aviation world. Like us all at that point and indeed still, he/she has a licence to learn. With a bit of gentle advice they will learn whats required just give them a chance. You sound too bitter for your comments to hold any weight behind them. I indeed was a self improver and so wished I got a sponsorship. Looking back Im glad I wasn't selected as I have had I believe a very rounded introduction to the flying game so far but so would have taken the opportunity if it had been there. Just like you would if you had been lucky. They say never look a gift horse in the mouth!
This guy/gal has been trained to be a professional, just as the licence you hold implies. Give them the respect they deserve.

[southern softy]

Another suggestion.

Learn to say " Big mac with fries, that'll be £2.99"

but good things come to those who wait.

[Michael Jeffs]

I can't beleive how may "arse" replies this guy has had. I think some of you so called "pro's" should take a look at yourselves. This guy had a genuine Question and should have got a Genuine answer. He shouldn't have been shot down the way you guys have decided to do so. I am a wannabe, and I admire people like him who have made it where i havn't.
A simple question requires a "simple" answer .

NUFF SAID

[Harry Wragg]

SS, take heart, this is not the first time that this has happened. In 1991 after the Gulf War and the closure of Dan Air and Air Europe, myself and 400 BA cadets found ourselves in exactly your position, lots of experienced pilot's chasing very few jobs.

Of the 401, only 37 managed to get a flying job in the next 2 years. The rest either went back to their original profession (in my case IT), or became a hosty for BA.

It took the best part of four years before my 220 hours TT were required again by BA. Now ten years later I await redundancy, good game this.

I would suggest that you try to get a flying job, but since that is unlikely, you should also seek alternative employment. Always remember to live for today, as tomorrow will take care of itself, you will be surprised how quickly time flies, no pun intended. Best of luck.

Harry

[Carnage Matey!]

Seneca Soarer - you are a spoilt, mummys-boy brat, born with a gold mine in your mouth and you deserve to rot in hell for your ability to gain an ATPL without running up a debt equivalent to the national debt of Angola. I dance on the grave of your BA career.

Just thought I'd get that out of the way before Vref + 50K debt comes back. I fly regularly with many guys (now BA Captains) who were in your position following the Gulf war. A number did manage to find flying jobs, some as cruise pilots with Cathay (though in the current environment I advise against it), others as bush pilots in nasty African places. To achieve the later you'd probably need to know someone down there. If you don't have contacts, don't worry. When things pick up you'll be offered a BA contract and the company are understanding of a long lay off since previously flying. Previously lots of people worked in all manner of non-flying jobs, and none were discriminated against when it came to re-hiring. I understand you want a flying job, but you're probably better off going back to your previous career for 12-18 months until BA are back on their feet and call you. The situation is cr@p at the moment, but it will pick up and you've been selected by BA because you have the abilities that the company wants in its future Captains. When the upturn comes, and it will come, you'll be at the front of the queue for hiring. Unlike some of the purveyors of bad-vibes on this thread.

[Dick Deadeye]

SenecaSoarer, perhaps the most important aviation "skill" is the ability to exercise good judgement in the face of conflicting advice. You can now choose whether to listen to the likes of Harry Wragg and Carnage Matey (who have obviously been there) or to Vref +50, a well balanced **** with a chip on both shoulders.

Your choice! Not too difficult is it.

Just remember, should you ever be applying for the same job, people with the attitudes and outlooks of Vref +50 will make you look good at interview.

Employers hire people not licences and logbooks. Good luck with the job hunt.

Vref +50 you are a complete arsehole. Sod off back to the swamp you came from.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Mister Geezer]

I have to be honest folks. I do find the attitude of some fellow PPRuNers to be very disappointing. This particular person put out a genuine request for information and gets abuse back because of the plain fact that he/she is a BA Cadet. Hardly fair.... is it???? Come on folks... yes times are bad and whether you are self sponsored or a BA Cadet (or a cadet of any airline), some of us find ourselves in exactly the same situation at the moment. No jobs with everyone’s paws up for any flying that they can get hold of. Lets try and offer constructive help (even if it is negative feedback) instead of shooting the poor person in the foot before you have typed a thing. I am not a BA Cadet before any of you start speculating but I know a few BA cadets and the one or two that I know well are good, decent folks.

SenecaSoarer. My advice is for you to get an Instructors Rating (if you can) and instruct if possible. If you have to do it for free then so what, after all it is valuable P1 hours in the logbook and you have no outstanding training debts to pay. If you get paid for it then regard that as a bonus. For the price of a stamp and if it makes you feel better then send off some letters to some airlines/air taxi operators/flying clubs. Don't hold your breath for any thing positive but what can you lose for the price of a few stamps???! Yes it is true that things could be a lot better at the moment, but chin up because hopefully you have that jet job to look forward to, no matter how long it takes.

I wish you all the best

Regards

MG

[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Mister Geezer ]

[Sensible]

It's little wonder that many people feel reluctant to post on these forums is it?

A simple answer like: Well, 200 hours is not considered to be sufficient experience to gain employment in anything other than a flying school would have been sufficient!

You guys should rightly be ashamed of yourselves!

[Tosh McCaber]

Quite agree with Sensible's sentiments.

WWW and Vref+50- remember the old adage whilst you were being trained- RTFQ- where has the lad stated that he wanted to fly for free? I have read and re-read his posting, and can't see any reference to him offering his services free.

Your replies sound to the unbiased reader that you have forgotten about your (slightly) earlier times in your flying career to date. A touch of diplomacy never hurts.

Brings me back to a question which I have posted before-

What is the point of students going through the Ab-Initio course, coming out with a "Frozen ATPL", a huge amount of debt, and less than 200 hours of flying? They were lead to believe when they started out, that they had a reasonable chance of obtaining work at the end of the course. (Notwithstanding September 11th)
Can anyone clarify how these unfortunates are now expected to turn their two hundred hours into 300 to 1500 hours, before they can be considered for an airline job? That is, (unless they can fund and find an instructor's job), many, many thousand more pounds worth of flying.
Surely, the ATPL course should bring trainees to reasonable minimum standards to fly commercial aircraft, since obviously, it was formulated by the JAA to do just this?

[airmail]

Totally agree with Tosh-where does it say that he/she is willing to fly for free?

Judging by Vref's posting(s), getting an apology out of him will be like pulling teeth. WWW, as someone who has been through it all yourself-at your own expense as well, and remembering some of the postings that you used to make, I would have expected a bit more from you.

[Dockjock]

Given the fact that you have an airline job IN YOUR POCKET, and are not in debt for it you now have the enviable opportunity to do anything you damn well please. My advice, don't go into debt for an instructor rating. In fact, don't go into debt at all. Presumably you won't see any direct benefit from joining BA with a couple hundred more hours?
Get a well paying construction or bartending job- something you won't feel too much loyalty to, and make some money! Get up a nice savings to carry you through the first few years at BA when you are poverty-paid newhire. Once you've saved up a couple grand and then some go take 2 months and travel somewhere, be a ski bum or beach bum. See the world, enjoy life and visit countries for the fun of it.

Sure, once you get into BA you'll have all the travel you can stand, but it will be "airports of the world". And as with any seniority based system, there is no room for extended vacations once you are on that train buddy. I say take this time while you have it, instead of beating your brains out trying to get a flying job (or going into debt- which you'll regret). Your time will come!!

[celticflyer]

Seneca Soarer, I also find myself in a similar situation to yourself, difference been that I am self sponsored. Do not expect any serious leads into your question at the moment as there is a lot of guys out there scraping the barrel for some form of a flying job. If you had information about where to get multi hrs would you post on this web site??? As for guys with your experience flying light twins, the picture Vref has painted is not entirely true, as I know a number of guy's who went straight from flying school to fly light twins, barons etc. Anyway bush flying might not be what BA is looking for, It will I'm sure make you a good pilot but the short field landing techniques you'll learn might not serve you to well when flying into heathrow on a BA 737. As for Vref , You have apparently never been in this situation yourself judging by your negative comments. Looks like you are slightly bitter towards BA cadets for some reason. I think you are forgetting that they still have to get through a very demanding course to the highest standard and do not deserve the treatment you are handing them. That sort of attitude will not carry one very far in modern day Commercial aviation. SenecaSoarer I wish you all the best in your quest for a job.

[wysiwyg]

Vref50 - let it go. Now you are just making enemies.

Seneca soarer - possibly the biggest problem for you job hunting in whatever market may or may not exist at present is not your relative lack of experience but the fact that anyone who decides to invest in you can be darn sure that the moment BA calls you will run. Therefore if I was employing I would take a 200 hour unsponsored fr ATPL before you.

regards
wizzy

[tugtishu]

To Summarise :-

Vref 50 = 100% Tw@t
Carnage Matey = Humerous Tw@t
WWW = should know better

I can't believe how many jealous BA Cadet rejects there are out there . Get Over it you weren't good enough . we don't always make the grade .
The bitter people who spent 50K , it was your decision , all the best to you
Those who got sponsored - you lucky sods , well done

AS for SenecaSoarer why do you want to waste time flying in a dead end instructors job flying little shi##y planes around . Take time out , do drugs enjoy yourself and when BA are ready , hey presto a right hand seat in a shiny new A320. :eek:

[SenecaSoarer]

Thanks to those who replied with constructive comments. I am thinking about doing an instructor’s rating, maybe back in the US. Does anyone know of any good schools/courses?

I understand my predicament may well cause jealousy/annoyance but that's the problem of those who replied with such rage, not mine. My initial request (and granted, I sort of leapt in there without thinking) was simply of any rumours of employment for someone of my (all-be-it) limited qualifications. Yes, people would probably not advertise the fact on this website, but you never know. It is a RUMOUR network.

PS WWW, I've been meaning to thank you for your thread concerning the BA selection process, many moons ago now. I almost certainly would not have succeeded, first time, if it hadn't been for such sound advice, from the application form all the way through to Final Board selection. Cheers.
:D

[iwillspafinyourface]

I agree with you about the rest but whats this about flying instructor being a dead end job. This could be offensive as for some pilots who werent good enough for the commercial world this is their only option. I suggest you either reel your neck in or go away

[LAVDUMPER]

Vref +50 and WWW,

Your responses to the post are pathetic. It was an easy question requiring an easy answer - he/she needs more instructing time to build hours (i.e., work at a flight school).

I am particularly surprised by WWW's response. I know it took you FOREVER to find a semi-decent flying position with GONE, but you don't have to be so bitter. So what if this guy will be flying bigger, better equipment than you EVER will. His eventual 777 will cruise right past your piece-o-schit 733. How do you feel now? Do you still feel self-important? Are you going to axe this response or take it like a man? I've been sick of your lame "holier than thou" responses for months. If people seek advice, think about your bed-side manner - even if reality bites. Vref+50's response was even worse - what a bitter pill that was. Both of you guys give the impression of being real jacka$$es.... This message will be cut in 5, 4, 3, 2,...

[skid]

sad 2 say, ican vividly remenber bak in the last recession a couple of laid off BA cadets who came round our flying club sniffing for work. They displayed the type of self pity AND arrogance which realy got up the self improvers nose. Seen a lot of BA cadets go thru cranfield and a fair amount of them think that life owes them a living. Fair to say that being given something is rarely as satisfying as have to fight for it.

[tugtishu]

Well said lavdumper,
you have now probably upset all those 18 yr old wannabees who look up longingly to WWW with their wide open glistening eyes , thinking that this is the man who knows all and if they are really really nice to him and kiss butt then he just might help them get a job .
The Pedestal's a crumbling .

Skid , your what i see smeared on the bottom of my underpants.

[carlstone]

What a bunch of tw@ts!

This guy has done very well for himself.

Most of you know how hard it is to gain a BA cadetship. I sense that you are jealous of his acheivements.

From someone who wishes to enter this hard business, I think apologies are in order here. Otherwise just p!ss off and let sensible people answer his question!


Best of luck mate!

P.s Why don't you join the military?

[fruitbat]

What the hell happened to you WWW?! You used to write well balanced, informative pieces at obvious time expense for the good of others.

Now thanks to some so called 'flashy' job flying sh*te 73's, you look down on everyone! Perhaps you should stop trying to be a big fish on this pants forum and move to the rumours page, where former BA cadets will be happy to whip your sad welsh arse...

Get a life and learn to give something back, you are heading for a fall if you don't wise up.

[FL395]

The above answers from WWW and Vref +50
are not what i would expect from "professionals" WWW.....don't (http://WWW.....don't) you have a hand monitoring this site????....i thought that some one in your position would actually help the guy out rather than make a arsehole of yourself on for all to see....
VREF +50.....well do you even have a licence to fly????

I am a self improver and have got an FAA/IAA CPL and frozen ATPL and have done it all with my own money.
I don't bear grudges against those who are lucky enough to get through to the course...either with BA or Aer Lingus...fair play to them.....
Begrugders the lot of you....here i am...i posted a request too looking for help....and am considering an FI rating.....
If BA/ALT think that 200hr cadets are good enough to fly B737/757/A321's then why isn't it good enough to get a job with other airlines.....after all i'm not a cadet and have 300hrs and am in the same boat....
Does this make me a ****** and a sad git too
I don't think so.....it's the rest of you pratts out there who are already flying and are smug....that make it so difficult for guys/girls like us to get even a look in.
Come down from your ivory towers....because
you are all human beings.....
******S.....they went out with PAN AM.....
although reading this thread some ******s still are around.......
Give advice NOT abuse....or shut up......and don't let everybody else know just what fools you all are!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Tosh McCaber - As I read the original post the writer was seeking multi engine flying OTHER than hiring his own aircraft. Hence free hours by working for free.

I said " You HAVE to be joking..?! As far as free multi hours are concerned you have a better chance of winning the lottery.

Seriously. "

Thats hardly sticking the boot in - is it? He does have to be joking. OK OK I could have phrased it better I agree. But the fact is that my analysis was/is correct. And saying that someone is Joking is not very nasty in my book.

I have several good friends buzzing about in light twin GA and the LAST thing they need is some ex-BA cadet pitching up offering to do their job for free. They are Wannabes just as much as SenecaSoarer is for the moment... They will have the Vref +50 attitude because that is human nature and they don't have the luxury of largesse.

SenecaSoarer I am very glad indeed that my posts have helped you out over the years. Occassional words of thanks give me a really nice feeling. Cheers.

I have been fielding calls from several ex-airline cadets this last week or so. Most are either chopped or expecting the chop and are seeking help. I am helping them get interviews where I can in my own company. I am also fielding about two dozen Wannabe emails a day at the moment and am actively trying to match people to a few flying instructor jobs I have found out about. I think I am doing my bit to help out Wannabes in strife. What are you actually doing...?

tugtishu - Well I seem to have got right up your nose. If I am on a pedestal then I didn't put myself there. Although I really don't see what a slightly sad compulsion to help Wannabes merits any pedestal installing...

LAVDUMPER - easy question to which you have the wrong answer you idiot. THe last thing he needs is a £4,500 loan for a FI rating which will only pay enough for repayment in about 3 years during which he will learn lots of bad GA habits that BA will have to stamp out in the eventual Sim course. And er.. do you actually know what the hiring market is like at the moment for green FI's as we enter late Autumn? No, of course you don't you big dumb Yank because unlike me - a JAA Commercial Flying Instructor - you don't speak to FI's who - for example - got layed off this week from Tayside Aviation due to nobody booking courses. So wind your neck in. Given the fact that SeneccaSoarer will probably get into BA in 2 years time, then wait 5 years before he can bid for 777 then get his bid and wait 1 year for a seat to become availble then when he does eventually sail past and above me on his redeye bullet to DivorceVille I shall look up and consider my years of Command under my belt and my Captains salary and wish him bon voyage. As you ask. You prat.

fruitbat - Nothing has happened to me. I am still giving the soundest advice I can think of. I will admit my original reply was not the most balanced or constructive I've ever made but - hell - I am up to my neck in Wannabe helping at the moment and so I was kind of brief. To be honest SenneccaSoarers predicament is a walk in the park compared to many peoples and hence my brusqueness. As for learning to give something back - umm, who has donw more than me?

FL395 - sorry, I've been too busy half the weekend trying to bail out a load of Dublin Aer Lingus cadets who got grounded recently to form a perfectly formed balanced suggestion to SeneccaSoarers query...


So, yep - hands up - sorry SenneccaSoarer I was a bit rude in my original post. Don't *think* I deserved a good kicking though...!

Good luck, I hope your wait for BA will be short.

Cheers,


WWW

[SenecaSoarer]

Well thanks everybody for the replies ( some good, some bad!).Having considered my options I think I will go back to work in the City.
I wish all the other Wannabe's out there jolly good luck maybe in the future we can look back and laugh about this over a whole Pint of Lager at the Yacht club.(joke) :rolleyes:

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: SenecaSoarer ]

[LAVDUMPER]

Hey everyone - check out WWW's response to my earlier posting... Isn't he a bit defensive and immature in his response? Is it just me?

WWW - when you can't provide a rational, well-thought-out response to feedback (and indeed a consensus opinion - read all of the others who concur with me about your lame bed-side manner), you then LASH out like a baby (note your use of "prat" and "idiot" in your response). I now know why you were never accepted by one of the majors - you are too immature and obviously lack any real intelligence - did you fail the logic tests at BA? C'mon, admit it...

I really don't mean to be so confrontational. After all, the original post does NOT concern you - it deals with a very concerned individual with a good question who was later thrashed by jealous jacka$$es (ridiculous in this high-anxiety environment). As far as instructing is concerned, I do know of positions that are available - perhaps not in the UK - but in other locations (US, among others). I know that many instructors are sitting around with nothing to do in the UK - I am aware of the situation. The idea is to get more hours rather than sitting idle - that's the point.

Now, I am sure that your response has surprised many people who perhaps once looked up to you as a sage person. Your lashing out doesn't accomplish much - it just sullies your image - not mine.

As for being an idiot, my degrees from an Ivy League university in the States and a graduate degree from Oxford University (not OATS) are surely equivalent to your educational background. Right?

One positive aspect of this forum is that good advice can be passed on to others. WWW's contribution, and his subsequent diatribe against me and a few other well-wishers, has now stained his reputation and demonstrated that GO does not have high standards when it comes to hiring jacka$$ FOs. What a pity for GO! Not a good endorsement... Do I want my GO flight crew to act impulsively like this when conducting their flying duties? Heck no!

I am sure that we can NOW expect WWW to dish out some more criticism against me and every fortunate BA cadet out there... Or, he can shut his trap and accept the fact that he is NOT always correct and that he should provide good advice in a friendly bedside-manner to super-anxious individuals seeking said advice. Grow up WWW and take your medicine like a man! You're wrong - admit it! This message will likely be axed in 5, 4, 3, 2 ...

[Blindside]

Actually LAVDUMPER, it is just you, you tit.

regards

[Sensible]

I just cannot believe the amount of stress created by such a simple posting! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

[moggie]

As someone who trains these BA cadets post licemce, I have to say to VREF+50 that they are on the whole far better than the average GA pilots you seem to think they are. Their training requires them to attain higher standards than the CAA/JAA require throughout their training and a BA cadet with 200 hours and a Jet orientation Course behind them will normally be a damn sight more professional and able than a 400 hrs+ self sponsored bloke.

SS did not need his/her head ripping off - he/she asked for advice and got abuse, so give it a rest guys.

SS - stick with it. My brother was in the same boat as you post Gulf war - he had to wait but BA came through and he is now a B777 FO. you could try applying to the likes of GO and easyJet (although they probably want rated blokes). I know EZY have taken direct entry, unrated guys in the past so you may be lucky. Back in the early 90s BA were happy to release people who were offered jobs form their "bond" so again, may be worth a go applying eleswhere.

You could just get hold of the Yellow pages and dad phone - and work your way through them all. Also, it only costs pennies to send a CV and covering letter. Don't be afraid to apply for jobs for which you don't meet all the asking requirements - it's worked for me in the past.

Good luck.

By the way - how is my old mate Jim Barrowman getting on at WMU? He seems to have lost the ability to reply to e-mail (maybe too disorganised?).

[presbycusis]

Some good replies SS - weed 'em out from the greeneyed monster ones! Hope you get my e-mail :)

[Sick Squid]

Firstly, Seneca Soarers first post was this...



Hi folks,
I've just finished basic training (have CPL frozen ATPL, IR, 200 hours) on the BA cadet scheme in Michigan. I want to increase my hours (preferably on a Piper Seneca) while I wait for a contract with BA (could be some time). I'm willing to travel ANYWHERE to get more hours. My question is: does anyone know of companies (bush flying, air taxis, charter etc) willing to take on pilots with my experience?
Cheers


WWW, where did he say he was looking for to work for free? All I saw was someone who has graduated from an approved course looking for advice on where to find paying work... he believes BA will offer him a job in the future, I'll deal with that in a few moments. And to everyone else having a go at the guy, then look inwards as to why you phrased your responses so negatively.

Seneca Soarer, what you have to now work on is the premise that BA are never going to offer you a job. That is what we did, those of us who were sponsored and graduated during the Gulf War (and before the silver spoon argument gets trotted out, I had a PPL, 150 hours, 24 years old and a £20,000 pound loan in place to fund my initial commercial training when BA accepted me, and I worked my rear end off on the course. Cancelling that loan was one of the sweetest moments of my life, and I make no apologies for it.)

On graduation, we were faced with a multitude of choices to apply for work, and yes, the Macdonalds jokes started then! Work was not exactly thick on the ground, however. My course had a bit of heads-up as to what was going to happen, as we graduated after we'd been told not to expect work, so most of us fired of dozens of letters to as many crriers as we could find. I was lucky enough to one of the first to be offered the Cathay Pacific contract (there were 39 of us in total went to CX , which added on to the folks who found work in Africa, or with Air UK, etc. means Harry Wragg is aiming low in his estimate.) In going to CX, I turned down a night-freight job ex-Carlisle, and also several offers to return to my former career.

So what to do? Apply for every aviation job you can. BA may never come round to offering you a job, and when they do, you may be in such a position that you do not wish to leave.. that was the position of many of the Cathay Captains and First Officers I flew with.. they had been trained by BA at Hamble, sent on to the dole queue, and if they had listened to everyone who told them how "lucky" they were and that BA would come round soon and how dare they "take" the jobs from other pilots they would still be on the dole queue now... it was 7 years before an offer came for some of that vintage, and to a man, none of them accepted it because they had sorted their careers out.

How you start in aviation matters not one jot. If you pay for it yourself, then great. If you can find someone else to pay for it, either Her Majesty or an airline, then better still. But you still end up on the same market competing with equals, and from here on in is the test of how you will fare..

In 1991, there was no one on the internet telling what the situation was like for the cadets in 1974. There is that equivalent now. If I say to you that a very senior BA manager stood before us and virtually promised that our jobs were only being delayed by 6 months (Huge Weapon, for all the ex-PIK guys reading this) and it took a minimum of 3 years for the first jobs to appear (give or take a month or 2) up to a maximum of 4 I think you'll get a drift for the reality. If I factor in my opinion that this particular event may be worse than the previous one......... hear what I'm saying?

So. Ignore those who snipe at you for who you are. Get into the market place, and in all honesty act and believe as if BA will not ever offer you a job; they may never.

Fact: BA trained you as an asset. You owe them no loyalty, and the loyalty they owe to you is merely financial. You are to them an investement, and your repayment time is a lot shorter than you think. Rod Eddington cries no tears for those he leaves in his wake, and I speak from experience there.

So to mitigate the doom and gloom laden nature of this one, if and when they start recruiting again you will be offered a job. To sit back and wait for that to happen may not be the right thing to do. I'd say get out there and look for a job, and good luck. I sincerely hope to fly with you some day. Don't go back to the City man, get on the pilot market place, you deserve it. Any "luck" you had up till now you generated yourself, go generate some more.

Sick Squid

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[eeper]

As I understand it, BA have about 3 years after the end of your training to offer you a job. The market for pilots will recover and BA are losing people at a rate of knots thru retirement. Remember BA have spent a lot of money training you up. You "owe" them £15000 and, when you do start work, you will be dirt cheap. You are the first place that they will look when they need new pilots.

Therefore you are likely to get a job offer within your 3 years and BA should take account of your lack of experience in your subsequent conversion course. I would take the year(s) break as an opportunity that you are unlikely to get again. Do some work, save some cash and then go travelling.

If you really are desperate to keep flying, I know a mate of mine worked for a while as a pilots assistant in some charter outfit in Belize.

It goes without saying that you should ignore Vref's rantings, but as a professional pilot I'm sure you already knew that.

[BEagle]

Out of curiosity, is it still possible for someone in senecasoarer's psition to join Uncle Nigel as temporary cabin staff or to work in flight dispatch? Perhaps an attitude of being willing to roll up the sleeves and get practical in-the-field airline experience might be viewd more favourably by a future employer than pushing paper and gambling on the stock exchange with other people's money, for example?

I recently took on a youngster with far less experience than you who had just gained his FI(R) rating - in the short time he was with us before he went abroad he flew off his FI upgrade requirements and was a considerable help to us. He'll be very welcome back when he comes back from the temporary overseas employment he's found for himself.

Another possibility might be to take out a loan for a 737 type-rating and then to approach someone like Easyjet or RyanAir? Presumably you've checked their websites?

I am frankly appalled at the hostility shown on this site to an innocent query - and I certainly wouldn't wish either to employ or to fly as a passenger with certain folk who've written in such a vitriolic manner. Your CRM must be a thing of wonder to behold....not!

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Sensible]

SenecaSoarer, you are to be commended for your restraint. A lesser mortal would have fallen to the gutter level of those who for no good reason sought to attack and insult you. I know whom I would choose to fly me!

Some of these people with their sparkling sense of humour (?) would be a whole lot of fun to share the workplace with though I'm sure!!??????? :eek: :eek:

Good luck!

[Crash Barrier]

WWW quote, 'Seneca Soarer will probably get into B.A. in two years'

erm, what makes you such an authority on this WWW, do you follow news events, i.e. even more job cuts to come at B.A. in the near future. The aviation industry is in a state of shambles. If you aint a low cost carrier, you are probably not going to survive. Who knows, B.A. might go tits up due to lack of business, so I don't think you are in any position to comment on what is going to happen in the near or distant future.

If the kid wants to instruct then he should, you say there are no positions, but on other forums you are posting the opposite of this.

Time for a new moderator I think......

As for attacking 'Lavdumper' the way you did, well I only hope I am not a passenger on one of your flights, cos when the s*it hits the fan it looks very much to me like you will cave under pressure.

[cyclops]

Jim? Disorganised? :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, I read "I'm willing to travel ANYWHERE to get more hours" and thought it sounded like work for free. Perhaps thats my missreading.

For those having a go at me - I've put years and years into this forum and helped hundreds of Wannabes so for the sake of Perspective give me a break.

LAVDUMPER - you annoyed the hell out of me by demeaning my career and employer so you got both barrells and well deserved. I'll match your educational credentials to mine any day as well.

But much as I enjoy a good spat I am closing this thread as its not really helping old SeneccaSoarer any more.

Cheers,

WWW