Flying in bad viz - any thoughts?

[vancouv]

Had an unpleasant experience recently, and wondered if anyone had any comments or similar incidents.

Went flying in conditions that didn't look perfect, but after consulting TAFs/METARs/ATIS and other pilots who had been flying, sounded like it should be OK. Immediately after T/O, decided viz had got a lot worse, and was going to return immediately to airfield. Flying low (1600ft), did all the usual lookouts ahead, behind etc. and started a gentle 180 deg. turn to the right.

Due to bad viz, not much horizon, so was checking my instruments more than I might usually do. Had completed about 120 deg. of the turn when my one of my passengers, behind me on the left, said 'plane to our left, very close'.

I looked to my left, and sure enough, at about my 8 o'clock, there was a plane, and it was VERY close :eek: . By this time it was banking to the left, and all I could see was its belly.

My passenger said she had been looking in that direction, and called as soon as she saw the plane which, in her words, 'appeared out of the mist'. So it was very close by the time she saw it. Presumably the other plane didn't see me until that point either.

I was in front, and to the right of this plane, so I believe that means I had right of way.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I wouldn't even have been aware of this plane at all if my passenger hadn't seen it, which I find a bit scary!

I realise that unless you were in the plane with me you can't be sure how accurate my description is, but does anybody have any comments about things I should/could have done to avoid this, or is it just one of those things that you have to put down to experience?

And has anyone else experienced anything similar?

[Bodie]

Hi vancouv

Yes I experienced this very thing on Saturday, but I was flying a PA28 alone, from Welshpool down towards Shobdon. In fact I saw an aircraft to my right. Wasn’t you was it??!

Yes it's scary. I always have strobes and landing light on if it gets really bad. I'd hope everyone else does the same.

To be honest, I can't see a way of avoiding it; I’ll just keep my eyes peeled, and listen out for other aircraft and their positions on the radio. Get a Radar Information Service if at all possible.

I always get passengers to look out, gives them something to do, and serves a purpose.

Bodie

[Airbedane]

Vancouv

Have you considered filing an AIRPROX, or even a CHIRP report. Both will get your experiences to a wider audience and maybe help prevent the same thing happening again.

Neither will allocate blame.

A

[FlyingForFun]

Doesn't just happen in bad viz, either - although obviously that's when it's more likely to happen. If the viz is anything other than perfect, I always try to get a RIS if possible - except that everyone else does the same, and the controllers are often too busy. (Also, from your description of your flight, it wouldn't have been long enough to do that.)

The only way I can justify this is with the "big sky" theory. Two cars driving down a single-lane road in different directions, neither looking for traffic, will obviously hit each other. Move those two cars to a desert, and there's a reasonable chance that one will pass in front of the other. Now add a third dimension, and the chances of a collision are actually pretty slim. Worked for me on Saturday, returning from the PPRuNe fly-in at Duxford to White Waltham, did an overhead join, checked the published circuit for traffic before joining on cross-wind, but completely failed to notice the aircraft which was flying a very tight circuit, well inside the published circuit, until I was on top of him. Literally on top of him, by about 50 feet. That third dimension can be very useful sometimes! And I've also learnt to check the entire area for aircraft when joining, not just the published circuit!

Stay safe,

FFF
--------------

[Hersham Boy]

I'm sure I should know.... but I don't. What's a CHIRP report?

Ta
Hersh

[eyeinthesky]

I would never discourage anyone from filing reports, but I wonder whether an AIRPROX will get anywhere.

At this stage, unless you managed to get a sight of the reg of the a/c it will be very difficult to trace to get his side of the story. As such, the only info available to the AIRPROX board will be your description. As such, the conclusion will be Category C: Risk unknown. Confliction in open FIR resolved by pilots concerned (or something like that).

With regard to your wider question, you need to bear in mind that whilst it may be legal to fly, it might not always be easy. 3km is not much vis, and it is nearly always worse when you are in the air than it looks from the ground. Take a radar service if you can, fly at non-common levels (i.e 2350 ft instead of 2500ft) and comply with the quadrantal rules above 3000 ft if you can, even if you are technically VFR and VMC. Anything you can to minimise the risk. This winter/spring high pressure that has affected us in the south over the past few weeks has produced some horrible but legal visbilities which are not apparent until you get up into the air. It's beem like flying in a bowl of milk.

[Northern Highflyer]

I hit some poor vis this weekend over the North Yorks Moors. It wasn't a worry but it sure focuses the mind on the outside world. I am always amazed at how many a/c there are in the skies not talking to anyone, especially in those conditions

Some of the thoughts I had aren't printable on here :D

[vintage ATCO]

Hersh. . . . http://www.chirp.co.uk/air/default.htm ;)

[2Donkeys]

In answer to Hersham Boy's question. CHIRP stands for Confidential Human factors Incident Reporting Programme.

It is an anonymous mechanism for bringing to a wider audience an "I Learnt About Flying From That"-style incident. Typically they are incidents in which an offence has been committed or a company procedure broken, where the reporter wants the protection of anonymity, but feels that publicising the event might help others to avoid a similar problem

You can read all about CHIRP at:

http://www.chirp.co.uk

follow the links to GA CHIRP.

An Airprox is an event in which the commander of an aircraft feels that his aircraft has been placed in danger by the close proximity of another. Airproxes are filed on a form designed for the purpose, and then reviewed by the "Airprox Board", who categorise them in terms of risk, and cause.

If two VFR aircraft get close in class G airspace, the airprox board are frankly not very interested, since both pilots are meant to be seeing and avoiding". It only perhaps raises an eyebrow if the reporting aircraft had right of way, and yet was forced to deviate because of the inattention of the other aircraft.


Whenever incidents like vancouv's are recounted on Pprune, there tend to be voices suggesting the filing of a CHIRP and/or an airprox.

CHIRP really doesn't seem appropriate in this case...

It may well have been an airprox but based on the facts given, the "other" aircraft spotted you, and turned to avoid you, noting perhaps that you had right of way. It is worthy of note that you didn't spot the other aircraft until it was turning away, but this reflects on you rather than the other pilot, and perhaps does not need an Airprox filing.


In haze, the eyes focus at a point only just outside the aircraft. It is this factor which can make traffic spotting difficult. Being aware of this physical limitation and consciously making an effort to focus on distant ground features and cloud edges can make a difference. Getting the passengers to keep a look out, as Vancouv did, is also a smart move.

One to learn from perhaps, but not a natural paperwork job, I would think.

[vancouv]

Bodie - no it wasn't me!!!! I always have strobes on even in perfect weather, but not all planes have them.

I don't think filing a report would be particuarly useful. I don't believe either of us had done anything wrong as such, it was just one of those things. I was interested in hearing other peoples suggestions for avoidance.

With hindsight the best decision would have been a no-go, but it's not always easy to judge from the ground. Even in the short time I was up, by the time I got back to the airfield the ATIS was already giving much worse viz rather than the >10K they were giving when I left.

[FNG]

You can't tell that that other aircraft are not talking to anybody, only that they are not apparently talking to the same station as you. I agree that getting an RIS is useful, but quite often there is no one to talk to who can give you any useful information, in which case all we can do is lookout, fly at odd heights etc etc as suggested above.

[Whirlybird]

Be aware that in marginal vis THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is a good lookout. Yes, you need to check instruments, and getting a RIS is a good idea. But I bear in mind that I'm not likely to see another aircraft until they're very close, and point this out to my passengers too. Of course it's not foolproof, but not much in aviation is.

[Keef]

It can happen regardless of who you're talking to (or not). Coming back from France last Thursday, we were talking to Lille Approach and at FL45 routing LT direct DVR. We heard another aircraft call him, 5000 feet QNH, routing Cap Gris Nez to LYD. Both aircraft were squawking.

We were surprised at his using QNH, so kept a good look-out and saw a bright yellow aircraft crossing right to left in front of us. We turned right and went well behind him. I don't think he even saw us.

Lille said nothing (we were VFR, after all). If we hadn't turned, we'd have got very close to the other aircraft.

What is the transition altitude the French side of the channel? I can't find it in my Bottlang, but have always assumed it's 3000 feet.

[Thrifty van Rental]

Keef

Transition in the Lille TMA is 4000 feet. Although from your surprise, I am guessing that you have high expectations of what Lille Information is doing for a VFR flight. His primary role is to provide separation between IFR flights, and information relating to VFR traffic such as you are, I suppose.

This means that Lille does not care what QNH or level you say you are within reasonable limits. He just wants to know that you are not in any danger of hitting any IFR flights under his care. If he choses to offer any traffic information to you in the meantime, that is at his discretion. Also it is important to remember that VFR traffic in that area has no requirement to speak to Lille.

It sounds like you did the right thing and took care of your own separation.

[Airbedane]

Vancouv,

Having thought about it, I believe a CHIRP report would be quite appropriate for the experience you had.

The problem of bad viz in haze is not new, bit maybe pilot's need reminding. Why not file the report and let CHIRP decide whether it's worth publicising the message or not. After all, it's confidential, so you have nothing to loose......

A

[Keef]

TvR - no, I know Lille Approach very well, and have no expectations. If you're VFR, and if they have your flight plan, you'll get a squawk. If they don't have your FPL, you'll get told off. That's it, just about, for VFR flights.

I always call them. If we're doing ILS practice into LFAC (top value!) then they'll usually set us up on the ILS before handing us over.

They've given me some excellent service routing down to Reims Prunay in the past, but that's a bonus rather than something to expect.

My surprise last week was that they happily accepted this bloke at 5000 QNH. Made me wonder if Trans Alt is different from what I'd expected. It is! I thought 3000, but since I'm not happy crossing La Manche below FL45, it makes no difference.

[andrewc]

One help is to have your transponder on mode C...there are
quite a few aircraft out there that can pick you up with
TCAS...

-- Andrew

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi VC

Things like this obviously make all of us sit up and take note.

Think though that if you stop flying the moment the vis gets down to 10K you will be missing out on quite a bit of flying.

Anyway, rule no 1 was obeyed, and we all live another day to learn some more.

FD