French Customs departing France??

[twizzle]

Having read Jim Browns article in Flyer " Flying to the Continent "
He says that leaving France to return to UK must be through a customs designated airfield.

I recently flew to a small grass strip west of Le Mans via Cherbourg. I filed the return flight plan direct back to UK.

No questions were asked.

Perhaps some experienced continent flyers wiil put me right.

[Irv]

Entry and exit via a customs field, and ignore the pilots who rubbish it.

There are so many pilots who will tell you:
"for French, trips, you don't need to do this or to take that"
what they mean is they didn't get caught, usually because they were not involved in an incident. There was a disgraceful article in a magazine a while back encouraging all sorts of dodgy things when flying to France, because that is what this guy did and he had never been stopped.
Also, isn't Calais under threat of actual closure as a consequence of one UK pilot not obeying the rules and basically taking the pi-pi? (if you follow the chain of events leading to the customs notice and it not being used much now)
I spent a lot of time last year getting someone out of a 'hole' after an incident in France - he'd always rubbished what I told him about documents needed, etc etc. He then had a little incident and suddenly he was facing real trouble, real money losses, and decided I might want to help him.
When things go wrong OR when a 'new broom' arrives high up in the official french heirarchy, suddenly big trouble arrives for pilots who have been doing something for years - it's not like squatters rights - doing something for 20 years doesn't make it legal. When people come out with these things, I point out that in actual fact you could fly to France without having a licence at all ie: if you know how to fly an aircraft but don't actually have a licence, - you could get away with it for years if you never had an incident, but it wouldn't mean you could tell people 'you don't need a flying licence to fly in France.'

[Monocock]

Must admit, I thought as long as you notified customs of your inbound trip to UK you didn't have to leave France via a customs field.

Am I wrong?

[Thrifty van Rental]

Irv is correct.

Unless home is another Schengen country (which the UK is not), then you have to enter and exit France at a Customs field. This can either be an airport of entry, or via one of the 30 or so fields that permit customs to be made available "on demand".

You can only be granted an exception by the Prefecture of the Departement in which your intended field lies. This was never granted willingly, and in the current climate, I would think that the chances are somewhat less than "0".

[Charlie Fox]

Departure MUST be from a Customs designated airfield not any old grass strip.

[bluskis]

Not wishing to start another Flyer/Pilot arguement, but April Pilot has a good article on flying in France which also includes the correct advice that you must clear both in and out via a customs airfield.

As a note, I have found many of them require up to two days advanced notice, so it is best to use the manned ones, or the two hour notice ones.

Twizzle
Hope they dont question you on your next visit

[IanSeager]

Twizzle wrote...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having read Jim Browns article in Flyer " Flying to the Continent "
He says that leaving France to return to UK must be through a customs designated airfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then bluskis wrote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not wishing to start another Flyer/Pilot arguement, but April Pilot has a good article on flying in France which also includes the correct advice that you must clear both in and out via a customs airfield.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems to me that there's no need for a Flyer/Pilot argument as we're both in agreement on this one :-)

Ian

[twizzle]

Many thanks for the replies.

I will lie low for a bit!

[Keef]

Heard a tale a year or so ago about a chap who flew regularly to a non-Customs airfield in France near where he had a gite. He thought it was OK.

One day the French Customs caught up with him. Arrested him, and took him to court. They examined his logbook and found dozens of entries for the same route. He was fined something like £1,000 on EACH count.

Might be apocryphal - might be true. Could certainly happen.

Not worth the risk.

[Irv]

Keef wrote:
Might be apocryphal - might be true.
Dunno about the Gite story, but I'm sure the magazines covered one "a little while back" (my sense of time has gone!) about a guy who always landed at Le Touquet, then flew to xxx (somewhere nearby without customs) then flew home, having filed a flight plan at Le T to fly back departing xxx to the UK direct.

As I recall he was surprised one day when the boys in blue landed at xxx as he was about to taxi and he got handed a big penalty fine. His main gripes were:
1- He'd always done it, and the Customs man at Le T. knew he always did it.
2- He wasn't hiding he was doing it (the flight plan said so)
3- As they got him before he left, he hadn't actually done it the time they got him for it!
Those three points are quite typical of what any UK pilot would say, and sadly amusing to anyone who has experienced French officialdom in action in the following ways:
1 The first relating to the idea that a French low level official would do anything pro-active given the alternative of doing nothing about it until it was flavour of the month.
2 The second being that once the 'swat team' had been told to make an example of someone, they would go to the bother of finding someone at random when there was a pilot shouting 'come and get me when you are ready' by filing a flight plan saying what he was doing,
3 and thirdly, the Anglo-saxon idea that you actually have to commit a crime to be guilty of it. All the third one would do is make them smile, pause for a minute to wax their clubs and clean out their tear-gas spray nozzles and then carry on demanding a fine be paid.

Anyway, whatever the final outcome, (ie: if his arguments won or not), I bet he doesn't do it any more!

[Fujiflyer]

So what is the best way of satisfying Customs when you want to visit somewhere that requires advance notice? I recently tried calling by telephone a few inland airfields such as Rennes and Caen, to name a few and had great difficulty in finding out what notice they needed (I did my best to speak French) because they didn't understand what I meant. :eek:

Presumably faxing passport and flight details the day before is a good start but how can you be completely sure that your intentions have been accepted by Customs?

Incidentally the Customs officer at Tours pointed out to me on no uncertain terms that the departure notification is just as important as that required on arrival. I had made the common mistake of not realising this although I guess I could have waited the required 4hrs prior to departure if he had insisted (which he didn't, fortunately).


Fujiflyer

[Irv]

We had a brilliant day out in Dieppe yesterday (Monday) - two PPLs wanting extra radio nav training so used Dieppe as a day out as well to get a good lunch. For anyone else interested, this is the extra I had to do over a 'normal' trip to Le Touquet:

Saturday: Phoned Dieppe tower on 02-35-84-14-40 (00-33-2-35-84-14-40 from the UK) - very cooperative -they took details for Customs (24 hours minimum) and wanted an approximate time of arrival and departure but very little else except aircraft reg, departure airfield and names. Make sure you specify whether you are talking local French time or not! I think the Dieppe tower fax is the same number but the last four digits replaced with 52-78 if you need it. Because it was to be a Monday and the airfield is actually 'closed', (well, in the French sense of being closed but you are welcome if you bring enough fuel!), I wanted to know the taxi number and the number to close flight plans. These are:
Taxi: 02-35--84-20-05
Flt Plans: 03-20-16-19-65
This might also be needed if you arrived during lunch and no-one was in the tower to collect fees.
Interestingly enough, Paris Info said they would close our flight when we asked from the Dieppe overhead, and I asked them to confirm it was done, and supposedly it was, but as usual I didn't belive them so I phone the above number 20 minutes after landing to find it had NOT been closed...... Don't know why I bothered to ask them in the first place, I knew they wouldn't do it even though they said they had. :rolleyes:

[Southern Cross]

The 4 hours prior notice for departure also used to apply at La Rochelle - I say "used to " because I have not flown in there for a couple of years. Likely the requirement still stands, I just have not checked.

I did however fly in there regularly for a time. I lost count of the number of British pilots that were fined for attempting to depart without giving the required notice (which is (or was) mentioned in the Pooleys). The first time I tried to depart (having ommited to give the required notice) I dodged a fine because my French passenger chatted up the Customs chaps and it turned out that members of their respective families were acquainted....

Otherwise I should have required my Visa card. Notice for these guys comprised a simple telephone call to a number that took an hour to discover the first time (not the number in the Pooleys). But a number thereafter at the top of my kneeboard.

Another example was arriving at Calvi in Corsica (superb place) to be met by two Landrovers full of Customs guys. We had flown in direct from Barcelona. The inspection comprised everything bar the rubber glove treatment. I had flown that leg - my co-owner the previous leg. He had forgotten his licence. Just as well I was flying then since had any of our documnet been out of order, I have no doubt that they would have taken great pleasure in fining us, impounding aircraft etc etc.

Ah the French. One of the nicest countries to fly in with the worst possible bureaucracy. Don't even get me started on their current attitude to Yaks...!

[long final]

Very Interesting thread. I do recall my first trip to L2k, and the trouble I had finding information regarding the customs, SB and flight planning. I still received mixed advice.

I think I may well have been in violation myself, as I only remember informing the UK Customs, and at no time informed French customs of any activity. I had PPR and a flight plan. No one commented or criticised.

Could someone clear up something else for me. Flight Plans. I have had no need to file more than a hand full in my time flying, and am still not sure about closing them, how to and why etc.

Last week Dublin closed my plan overhead Weston. On arriving back to Blackpool I did nothing regarding closing the plan, but remembered some time later that the Dublin ATCO checked twice that I was happy to close the plan. I rang BPL ATC and was told that I didn't need to close the plan, it would just happen automatically as I landed.

So, that’s two ATC units apparently operating two different ways. I have to admit not closing a plan, to my knowledge, in L2K once.

Could someone explain?

Regards
LF

[Kolibear]

French Customs departing France??

ah, sweet dreams - if only it were true!

(Sorry, bizarre sense of humour overload time again)

[Irv]

I think I may well have been in violation myself, as I only remember informing the UK Customs, and at no time informed French customs of any activity.
I doubt it - if your flight arrived at Le Touquet from the UK, and departed to the UK, in 'normal' hours, then you were ok - Le T. is a 'permanent' customs airfield so you have no reason to pre-notify French customs.
Flight Plans. still not sure about closing them, how to and why etc.
Well, in France, they will start overdue action if the plan is not closed within 30 minutes of supposed arrival time. If you are properly flight planned to the place you arrive, and ATC (eg: tower) is operational there, they will close your flight plan when you land. If ATC are not active, you must do it, and most French airfields have a phone number prominently displayed.
In any country, if you divert on a flight plan, make sure a proper ATC unit are aware that the diversion is on a flight covered by a plan, and your diversion and landing needs to be reported and flight plan closed.
If you return to the UK, it used to be the case that the UK also did follow up action for all missing or late arrivals - that was when you had to come back to certain airfields. If you are planned into a controlled airfield in normal op hours nowadays, they should still start the overdue action if necessary.
If you are planned into a strip or non-controlled field, unfortunately nowadays there is an assumption in the UK that no news is good news but I'd rather see it the other way round. Trouble is once we were allowed to come back to non-customs airfields, some pilots either through the usual ignorance or 'could not be bothered' attitude caused so much workload by not closing plans that things got stupid. I (and others) still always phone to close them, but really to be safe you need someone 'expecting you' who will phone to say you have not appeared or 'checked in' with them. Heathrow is 0208-745-3111, Manchester is 0161-499-5502 and Scottish is 01292-692763

[long final]

Thanks for the reply Irv - very helpful

LF

[Irv]

Long Final wrote:
Last week Dublin closed my plan overhead Weston
I've just realised where Weston is! You were going from Dublin to Blackpool and Weston is on the edge of Dublin's CTR. This is an example of unusual thing (and confusing to UK pilots) that happened to me at Waterford.

It is a surprise to many UK pilots, but every flight in Controlled Airspace requires a flight plan. In the UK this is 'hidden' from us VFR pilots who use Class D by the fact that the ANO says that passing normal details via the radio when inbound or asking for transit , or checking out at the Ops desk, will suffice as a flight plan for that sort of trip. So all of us staying in the UK, but flying in, across, or out of say Southampton, Brize, or Lyneham, don't realise it but we, by 'passing a message' to them and asking for a clearance, have effectively filed a type of flight plan - not the white paper sort, but a brief verbal sort allowed by the ANO just for that purpose. 99% of VFR pilots don't realise they have done this, and also, as this informal sort is never referred to as such in the UK, and not filed into a system, these verbal brief plans are never formally closed in the UK. Eire seems to be different.

I was in Waterford (Eire) and whilst flying locally, they made me very much aware that even though they accepted a verbal 'booking out' as a type of flight plan like in the UK, when leaving their airspace to, say, land to the north at Kilkenny, I had to formally say 'please close my flight plan' - even though I hadn't filed a paper one, I had to formally requesting a closure of the 'unofficial' booking out flight plan or it screwed up their system. So I did this every time I flew.

So far so good - until I departed to Southampton and filed a real paper flight plan - the sort we know. At Waterford eastern boundary, I wanted to go 'en-route' and they kept saying 'please, not yet - you haven't told us to close your flight plan' and I kept saying 'but I don't want it closed, I'm about to fly over water and an FIR boundary'.
After a few bits of confusion, they fnally explained 'no, we do not mean your international flight plan, we mean your local one that covers you to our boundary. We consider you have two. We want you to close the local one. Please ask us to do it and then you can go en route'.
So I did ask, then Waterford were happy, then I continued to Southampton where they closed the formal international one! I guess this is exactly what happened to you. Confusing to us in the UK, but apparently normal in Eire.

[Brooklands]

I've also been told that you should also formally close (or cancel) a flight plan even if you never activate it.

This is to prevent the destination airfield which receives the plan (but no activation message) from deciding that you're coming anyway then starting overdue action when you fail to appear at the expected time.


Brooklands

[DFC]

Perhaps what is confusing everyone is that we are talking about two separate functions when we arrive in and depart from France.

Customs and Immigration.

The customs element want to check that you are not smuggling into France. etc.

The immigration element what to check your passport on entering the country to record your arrival and just as importantly, record your departure from the country.

The system is exactly the same as the old UK system as applied to French pilots.

Regarding Irv's example of the pilot being caught taxying out and claiming that he had not departed the country........unfortunately, departure time was when he commenced his taxi i.e. the official start of flight time. I would not doubt however that the French police waited until that exact moment to swoop for that very reason.

On the flight plan system, the UK system is different from the ICAO standard which applies in Ireland and France.

In Ireland, pre flight filed flight plans are the norm for all except local flights at uncontrolled airfields and every student pilot is well versed with filing requirements. There is no "booking out system" in Ireland although the legal requirement to notifty arrival and departure to an airfield operator still applies.

Prior to the proliferation of mobile telephones, it could at times be difficult to find a telephone after landing to close a flight plan thus when landing at non towered airfields in Ireland, flight plans are usually closed by R/T prior to landing.

Today, most pilots have a mobile and thus IMHO, flight plans are better closed after landing....after all if you crash 1nm short of the runway, no one will look for you if you have closed your plan.

With regard to the Waterford situation described, I have never come across that before. Only one flight plan can be active on a flight at any one time and as Irv was correct to state, the flight plan must remain active until across the FIR boundary at least. If this should happen again then I would telephone the Waterford ATS unit for claraification.

I can state that this was most definitely not the case with regard to Dublin ATC. Inbounds to Weston are asked if they wish to close their plan as they approach Weston. International departures are not asked at all and if flying to Blackpool, their details are passed to the London FIR and they are provided with an appropriate frequency at or near the FIR boundary.

Regards,

DFC

[long final]

The Weston trip was direct from Blackpool, and obviously controlled via Dublin. As stated, Dublin asked if I was happy to close the plan before transferring to Weston - I see now that was to save me a call after landing.

I see DFC's point re landing - I think I was asked twice 'are you sure you are happy to close the flight plan?’ because it was pretty bad vis.

What I can gather from the other posts is that if you land at a controlled field the plan should automatically be closed by ATC, but a call to confirm may not be a bad idea. I would be interested to know the exact legal/responsibility situation.

It does highlight that there is so little information in the ppl syllabus regarding flightplans, and that there are many (and I also include many opinions I have been given from outside pprune) - differing opinions regarding both the plans and foreign travel. In fact, I am doing the ATPL's at the moment and there is very little beyond the basic filling in of the form in those.

LF

[Irv]

1:
Last week Dublin closed my plan overhead Weston. On arriving back to Blackpool I did nothing regarding closing the plan, but remembered some time later that the Dublin ATCO checked twice that I was happy to close the plan. I rang BPL ATC and was told that I didn't need to close the plan, it would just happen automatically as I landed.


I took it from that description that you were flying Dublin to Blackpool.

The Weston trip was direct from Blackpool, and obviously controlled via Dublin.
Now it seems you were Blackpool to Weston!

Confused of Popham
:confused:

[long final]

Sorry, my fault - badly worded. tinternet eh!

First trip BPL - Weston.

Next day, Weston - BPL

My ignorance was concerning Dublin’s insistence about closing the plan (whilst still airborne heading into Weston) and BPL's unconcern about closing it. (when I had landed back in BPL)

Think its all right now though ........

Regards
LF

[snchater]

I've just returned from a 4-day trip around Northern France (Lille, Reims, Calais) No problem entering France at Lille (customs on-site in theory although none to be seen) Tried to give 24 hours notice for customs at Calais - the ATC man said this was not necessary as customs were not interested!!!

[Flying Boat]

I normally fly out of the Channel Islands, Jersey.

I always enter & exit France through a customs airport, so no worries.

You must always file a flight plan because of going from one country to another.

You will get most of the information about customs from an up to date Jeppessen (France).

If you are not too confident and want to go to Western France, why not fly via Jersey? You can fly to within 14 miles of the French Coast but stay within British Rules Airspace.

Once landed at Jersey you will have the support of the Jersey Aeroclub, GENDECs, FLT PLNs, souvenirs, bar/restaurant (and toilets), maintenance (if necessary), VAT free fueling help, met briefing, Notams (The terminal has its own met office and in flight planning there is a MARS terminal), assistance in car hire, help with booking an hotel room
and parking. All this for only £3 per 1/2 ton, including 7 days free parking. This applies to all visiting GA aeroplanes up to 3 tons.
Once there you can have access to Aerads & Jepps, as well as the free advice from instructors and locals about flying over France. They are super friendly.

Don't forget the Channel Islands are outside of the EEC but the French, especially NW, think of them as theirs, so les douanniers are far more relaxed with CI flights. Dinard charges a CI flight as a local one, not international.
Once in France you are in Schengen, so no more worries until you leave Schengen.

Flying to & from Jersey, CI, from the UK you should clear Special Branch in the UK, just to be safe.

I've done all my European flying from Jersey; France, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Germany, Spain and Italy. Most in a PA28.

If you all have a break coming, why not enter the Jersey Aero Club's International Air Rally 23rd to 25th May. Contact them on:

Jersey Aero Club
States Airport,
St Peter, Jersey.
Channel Islands.

Tel +44 1534 743990

Fax +44 1534 741290

The weekend is full of competitions, fun, several trophies, gala presentation dinner on Saturday and a light lunch on Sunday in Lessay, France. There is even some time to duty free shop! The customs in France are arranged by our friends at the Lessay Aeroclub.

Enjoy the fun of French flying, just keep a good lookout in uncontrolled VFR country, someone has to.

Happy landings.