Oxford Aviation Airline Preparation Programme.

[russell_dq]

Hi,

Has anyone gone through this programme?

Is it a good idea?

Any hints or tips from those who have been through it?

Thank you for any information.

[witchdoctor]

Much too new to find anyone who has gone through it - you will have to wait about another 12 months for that kind of info.

Very contentious new course as it is hugely expensive, and open to some debate as to how close to reality Oxford's marketing of your career prospects post APP might be.

I don't personally know any ex-OAT students who have got work as a result of OAT's efforts, but I do know ex-students who found themselves FO positions. Can't really see what OAT are claiming to do for new students in this respect that they didn't also claim to do for ex-students, and so far I don't see any great successes for OAT on the career front.

[richiya]

hi russell,
I have been looking into doing one of those courses. I´m looking into one with eagle jet. I didn´t like the idea of having to pay for the course upfront, before even getting to see the planes/pilots I was going to fly with. In this company you can pay as You fly. Iá currently deciding weather it is worth doing it on a jet as it is nearlly doble the amount i costs on a turbo prop.
I am also looking for someone who has done a similar course to get first hand info.
If I´m lucky I´ll let you know.

[P T Flea]

Hello there,

I have been offered a place on the APP course and I am quite likely to take it.

When I first heard about the APP I was quite sceptical like most ppruners are, and I hasten to add it is only natural to be. I conducted plenty of my own research into other options and other Flight Training Organisations. After lots of thought on the matter I have come up with the following conclusions, and these are rather brief cos' I could type forever about my reasons if I wanted to.

- Oxford have decided to go for quality over quantity. That's a fact. They are downsizing the number of people on the APP compared to the numbers that used to be on the integrated course. They are taking roughly 20 per course.

- They have decided to place a selection on the front end of the course, so not allow any old tom, dick or harry on the course. This has major benefits for a few reasons. In brief they are: the airlines know they are getting quality pilots (i.e Oxford have effectivly done the selection for them) so the chances of getting a job (theoretically) go up, this means that more people apply to the APP and this means more business for Oxford. This also gives the banks that Oxford deal with the confidence to loan larger amounts of money that usual to cadets.

- Oxford have modified their course in accordance with airlines suggestions. This is also a fact and I have verified this with BALPA. They have added on various extra-curricular activities (e.g. visits to industry), more multi engine hours and more time in the FNPTII 737-400 sim. They use this sim for the 20 hour MCC at the end of the course but have added an extra 10 hourse of what they call JOT, Jet Orientation Training. Not the same as a JOC, Jet Orientation Course, but is designed to get you way ahead of the game when it comes to sim check rides and type rating sim work.

Finally, I suspect that there will be a shortage of sponsorship programs in the future (other than CTC) and the traditional full sponsorships may be dead altogether. I think this ultimately means that over the next couple of years the airlines are eventually have to start going to FTO's for their new recruits. Why not choose someone off the APP? They gone through an airline standard recruitment, had Oxford training (although Oxford get slagged off for a lot of things, not many people can fault the standard of their ground school and flight training) and the airline doesn't have to pay a penny for the training (well maybe other than a type rating).

Before you start to doubt the standard of the selection bare in mind that it is the same selection the BMI used to use when they sponsored.

As I see it, that's the way it is. There are still doubts in my mind about chances of getting employed, and whether they really are boosted over the chances of those taking other routes.

The APP is brand new and the very first course starts at the end of March. No one can say whether it will be a success, but after quite a lot of thought, I've decided that they've come up with a pretty good (in theory) idea.

There are plenty of routes through self funded training, but dismiss the APP without some consideration at your own risk.

Also, you don't pay for all the training up front, it is done in installments throughout the course, and yes I concede that it is an expensive course. But is does include lots.

Hope this helps, it's even a help to me to get things clear in my mind and set out my reasons logically.

PT

[piper1]

Hi!
I agree with all you have said here and wish you luck on the APP, good for you!
I attended the seminar and was very impressed in comparison to other training schools. I am hoping to take the selection myself later in the year but at the moment am waiting to see what develops with the war situation[and to save some money!]
Good luck

Piper1

[P T Flea]

Piper1,

Thanks for post. I agree that people should be wary about the effect of the war on the industry, especially before going through self-funded training. But I also believe there are some points we should consider before deciding that if we start training now we are never going to get a job and the war will ruin the industry for a million years:

- Courses such as the APP are nearly a year and a half long. So if you started in a couple of months that would give the industry 18 months to sort itself out before you were looking for a job.
The professional studies loans that HSBC are giving out for the APP don't have to start being repaid until six months after the course. This theoretically gives you 2 years to let the industry sort itself out. That is why I am not going to wait too long to see what happens. It should all be over in six months max.

- If you start training now you could hit the boom at just the right moment. There is talk of a retirement bulge in 18 months. Is it true? Who knows. But I do know that I'd rather be there with a CPL and bells on, than reading about on PPRuNe and deciding that I should go and start training.

- Let's face it. Our governments will always be fighting some war or resolving some conflict. I admit, it won't be the same as being at war, but I am just saying that there is very rarely periods of time where there isn't something brewing. After Iraq we'll probably back into Afganistan (sp?) and then on into North Korea.

Just some thoughts.

One other thing that I forgot to mention in my other post is for people that think that the selection will be easy. Yes, the entry standards may vary depending on the number of applicants but I only know three people that have applied and two of them got it the other one failed on the personality questionnaire.

PT

[piper1]

PT,
You are right when you say there is always going to be something political going on,and there are certainly no certainties about the state of airline recruitment in the future. As I said before I am going to wait six months for financial reasons. My situation is such that I have very little savings to go directly towards training costs and would be borrowing the majority from various sources!
As this is in many ways a gamble I am treating it in the same way...do not gamble more than you can afford to lose!
Maybe you are in a different position financially or maybe I should just get on with it and stop sitting on the fence! [must say its not the most comfortable of fences!]
Would welcome feedback
Piper1

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Most airlines will put pilot candidates through their own selection procedure. This is likely to include formal interview, simride, groups exercise, psychometric profiling and technical questionaire.

Just why an airline should defer such assesment to an FTO who conducted such testing some 2 years ago is a question that frames itself in my mind.

A 10 hour non-airline specific JOC course is not going to set the world on fire either.

And whilst its nice that you made some industry visits during your training thats really not going to make any difference to employability.

Me? I'd do a modular CPL IR and ATPL exams for about £40,000. I'd then spend the money saved on CTC applications, an FI rating or pay Ryanair for a job.

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lets see.

£60,000 for the course, plus £12,000 for food and accomodation plus £3,000 for CAA fees.

£75,000.

Thats maybe a £35,000 premium over that necessary to spend on a modular CPL/IR frznATPL. Same license, same flightest passes, same ground exams.

Of course the product may well suit some people.

WWW

[Grivation]

With low amounts of recruitment the airlines can choose to be picky
And if I was in airline recruiting and had the option of being picky I certaintly wouldn't be looking at 180 hour pilots. In fact that's just what's happening in the present climate.

Take www's advice - go do a modular course.

You both sound like you work in the OATS marketing department.

[piper1]

No we dont work for the OAT marketing department, but if there is anyone from OAT reading this we will gladly job-share for £60,000 per annum....

[Wave Drag Jones]

I don't know a lot about the new course but what you're saying sounds like very recognisable Oxford marketing bullsh1t. I do not mean that as an insult just be aware that while they dress it up as best they can it is still a fATPL CPL/IR that you will walk away with. The rest of what they offer will be of no interest to airlines, the only part they will take into account is perhaps the very fact that you went to Oxford as there is no denying the quality of training.

As the others have said here airlines do their own selection processes and will pay absolutely no heed whatsoever to Oxford's results as they will have tailored their own to meet their needs. The JOT course would be useful if you could delay it until you have a definite sim ride with an airline and therefore use it as practise because the use will fade with time and as an added bit on your licence this will not stand up to much.

This sounds quite harsh but it is the truth and you should certainly take it into consideration. PLEASE investigate ALL avenues before choosing, if after doing this you still decide on Oxford then go for it because there are many good reasons to go there, just dismiss the marketing crap from any decision you make!

WDJ

BTW - how often are they doing the course? they say they have downsized to 20 per course but when I did the integrated course there only 18 on mine!;)

[sally at pprune]

A couple of observations; I don’t want to join in the Oxford bashing, however, I feel I cannot let the propaganda (unwitting or intended) go unchallenged.

When I researched commercial flight schools many months back, I concluded that Oxford’s groundschool must be good as it achieves excellent results. In contrast, there must be plenty wrong in the flying department as the results achieved are well below average. Their courses are quite over-priced when comparing apples with apples, and their customer service levels are poor compared with others.

Having made those statements, I’d better justify them before I get flamed. ;)

Groundschool

OAT make a lot of noise about their first time pass rates. They quote only the integrated rates as the modular rates are statistically incomplete; the same reason given by other modular schools for not publishing the rates. The subjective assessment I made was by talking to ex-students. 2 schools stand out as having first rate groundschools; Oxford and Bristol Groundschool. There are many others that are good. I chose Bristol in the end as they are clear winners in the customer service front.

Flying

Comparing first time pass rates for CPL Skills Tests and IRTs is tricky, as few schools will disclose their rates and it took a lot for me to get CAA averages. When schools do disclose, some quote first series pass rates which are different from first time passes. Then there is the problem of different schools having different students; start with good raw material and you may well get good results. Despite these health warnings, it was clear that Oxford achieved very poor first time pass rates at the CAA tests; at times when a lot of their students were ‘selected’ airline cadets who should pass first time more often.

Again, my subjective assessment was to talk to graduates. This was interesting; very few people criticise the standard of the instruction they receive wherever they train. Obviously, most people do their CPL or IR at only one school so they are unable to make comparisons. Maybe that is the reason. A typical Oxford graduate will complain about the management and customer service but praise the flying instructors. The only difference with the majority of other schools is that some do not criticise the organisation, while still praising their instructors. The best overall (by narrow margins) seem to be Bristol Flight Centre and PAT at Bournemouth. In my book the latter wins because a few people felt like sausages in a machine at BFC. The integrated choice was clearly BAe (now that WMU is out of the picture).

Prices

The OATS integrated course offered nothing of real value over the competition (in standard or APP form) yet was £1,000s more than the others. The equipment is older (although they are buying some new sims now), the operating base is poor, the accommodation frequently criticised – there seems no justification for the price other than the claim that they increase graduates chances of getting employment. I found absolutely no justification for that claim. I concluded that they must either be making a lot of money or they are very poor at managing their business.

Customer Service Levels

From the first sales enquiry to graduation, OATS prospective students, students and graduates criticise the organisation. In my research they were unique in this respect.

I know I’ve ended up OATS bashing, but I’ve tried to tell you the results of my market research dispassionately. I have nothing personal against OATS – they just failed to measure up and hence convince me to become a customer.

A final thought WWW, why is this thread on this forum; should it not be on the UK pro-training one? Even OATS don’t claim that this course has anything to do with sponsorship or jobs.

[benhurr]

A final thought WWW, why is this thread on this forum; should it not be on the UK pro-training one? Even OATS don’t claim that this course has anything to do with sponsorship or jobs.


If you care to glance at Pilot Magazine's "Where to Fly Guide 2003" from the March edition, there is a little box on page 9. The heading is "The 'Complete' airline pilot from Oxford Aviation Training."

The final paragraph reads as follows....

"The aim of OAT's JAA approved, full-time ATP(A) integrated course is to train pilots to the level of proficiency necessary to enable them to operate as a First Officer on multi-pilot, multi-engine aeroplanes in commercial air transportation. Upon completion of the course, the pilot will be issued with a CPL with an IR as well as receive training in Multi-Crew Cooperation (MCC) skills and jet handling skills (JOT). In other words, they're ready for the right seat!"

Nothing to do with jobs? No type rating, but ready for the RHS? And to think I used to work in marketing...

[flyingdwarf]

Mr P T Flea, its a shame for you that BA are no longer recruiting as you appear to have the required arrogance to fit into their scheme immediately. It seems to me that you are either reading from the oxford marketing script and posting it on this forum, or you are trying to convince yourself that this will work for you, and also that you seem to be that much better than everyone else (current and recently graduated students alike). Your 'quality not quantity' remark has confused me too. I beleive you said there would now only be 20 people on your course, compared to the 15 which was on the one I recently finished. Sounds like the instructors ability to teach on a one to one basis will be stretched.
Plus the implication that current/previous students are inferior has a distinct twang of 'I'm BA look at me' to it. Maybe you have got what it takes?!

Whilst I appreciate the hard work which you have clearly put in this far into your future training, I feel you should be very cautious about the blatent marketing of the APP scheme at Ox. Its nothing they didn't say two years ago, they have repackaged it, painted it in pretty colours and added three capital letters to the name, oooh. Also be cautious of your belief that in 18 months time there is going to be a glut of pilots. We were all told this too, and I know recent events have influenced this fact, but this is entirely the reason you must be cautious. Nobody knows what will happen in 18 months time, not you, not even the airlines, and definately not Oxford.

For your information as well, there are plenty of excellent pilots out here without a sniff of a job, and it is not through lack of ability or effort (on their own part, not oxford's I might add). There is a lot of slack to be taken up in this industry before you come out, and unless oxford actually makes an effort to improve its links with airlines - which at present seem pretty tenuous at best, not existent at worst - they won't be very succesful in achieving there promise to you.

[scroggs]

benhurr Sally's quite right - this thread is about just another ATPL training scheme, whatever fancy names it's dressed up with! It is nothing to do with sponsorship, and it has no more to do with jobs than any other ATPL course. And it's developing into yet another thread about the pros and cons of OAT.

As you will note, it has been moved.

Scroggs

[Dogma]

I completed my training (full modular upgrade) at Oxford, very good indeed, have the required jet job, no thanks to their promised "assistance" in getting interviews.

PT Flea, Piper one - you are both a marketing mans dream!

Save your money, get the licence through the more varied and enjoyable modular route.

Good Luck!!:D

[badattitude781]

Dogma,

I too went to Oxford and was very disappointed with the service they provided. It is such a huge amount of money that ATPL students pay it is very sad when a school like Oxford treats its students so badly.

My advice to anyone considering going to a particular air school is to make sure you speak to a few students or former students of the school to get their views.

Regards.

[witchdoctor]

Sally

Interesting post, especially the research you appear to have made into being able to quantify your opinions - I really do think you must be far too sensible to be a pilot;)

Seriously though, as an ex-OAT stude myself, many of the comments posted here are sadly rather familiar, but I have to admit to a certain amount of surprise at the poor pass rates on the flying side at OAT. Do these figures include the efforts of the rather large numbers of Algerian students who have passed through OAT in recent years?

If so, then it would be hardly surprising to discover a poor pass rate as the overall application to achieving an acceptable standard of flying was often worse than poor (not applicable to all Algerian students as there were some exceptionally dedicated and skillful individuals, but sadly the majority it seems) and would hence drag down the school average. On a purely anecdotal basis, I was aware of a very good rate of first-time passes amongst the remainder of the students and would be shocked if this was significantly worse than elsewhere.

Additionally, the choice of routes for the IRT may also be a factor. OAT have 2 CAA examiners on site, and a favourite route is Coventry - Cranfield with 2 of the nastiest procedures in the area and an increased opportunity to cock it all up. I'm sure many other schools use these same airfields, but it may be that OAT perhaps recieve it more often than most due to the proximity to Oxford and the 'home advantage' at Cabair perhaps means they receive an NDB procedure there less often.

Flying Dwarf

Have you been at the Stella again my vertically challenged friend? Not all the BA cadets were that bad. Perhaps your recent experience at Cranebank has affected you badly - just think of a nice afternoon trip backseating the ILS at Filton with Chuckles and Ginger. Now doesn't that feel better already?

Luv you mate;)

[P T Flea]

flying dwarf - sorry if have come across as someone less than desirable on those previous posts. Obviously not my intention.

I don't mean to sound like I am reading from their web-site or brochures, I was merely commenting on the differences between the APP and the integrated course.

Yes I agree that there is a lot of marketing hype around it and at the end of the day you only end up with the same licenses as someone from any other route. I can also understand the viewpoint that the addons are debatable in their desirability. I am considering everything I read here and I'm not trying to convince myself.

Just so I don't get slagged off anymore for sounding like some brain washed OAT marketing machine:

-Yes I concede that the course is the most expensive route of doing things. There is also no real reason for this overpricing.

-Yes I concede that their halls are meant to be quite grotty.

-Yes I concede that the chances of getting employment are not necessarily increased through Oxford.

Oxford's standard of training is good and I would like to do it. I have to go on the APP now cos' they have scrapped the old integrated course. I don't really want to do the modular route as I have no real commitments at the moment and I just want to go and get really stuck in. All the stuff that they are meant to be offering on top of the integrated course will not be detrimental to my chances of getting employed at the end of the course.

I am not as blinkered to other ideas as I may have appeared in the other posts, I have just thought about it quite a lot and come to my own conclusions.

Many people mention bad levels of customer service from Oxford. I have not seen any sign of this. I have only experienced curtious staff with plenty of time for me and quickly returned phone calls. Yes I concede this might be cos' there are trying to get to part with my hard earned cash, but maybe their attitude has changed?

PT

[sally at pprune]

Whichdoctor

As I said, my research was imperfect and needed lots of common sense applying to the results. I don't know if Oxford's results included modular and integrated courses, but it will have excluded anyone who did not do a JAA licence. When I visited OATS they said that the Algerians do not. Therefore, I conclude that the flying pass rates exclude the Algerians. Oxford were certainly very uncomfortable about discussing their pass rates.

As for your own experience, you may have go though with a better than average bunch. Also, the pass rates are poor when compared with other schools; if you trained only at Oxford it would have been difficult to compare, would it not? However, most people who trained at Oxford had lots of good to say about their flying instructors, with one notable exception.

[Bucket]

Ahh! It's good to get back to Pprune after an absense of so long.
Nothings changed though; same whinges and same threads lacking any real objectivity. But this thread caught my eye so I had to say something.

I did the Oxford course some years back and with hindsight I do not regret a thing. Just about every aspect of the course was satifactory; namely the training both flying and grounschool. I was lucky to have a selection of G/S and flight instructors that ranged from Ok to outstanding.

Let's face it people that is really what counts - nothing else matters. You're not going to be there for ever, but some anxieties do merit a moan and deserve to be dealt with without procrastination on the part of management.

That can be summed up as customer service. That is the litmus paper test for any company.

I recall the rooms at Oxford as being reasonable.

What the course lacked was a follow up service post graduation. Oxford were under no obligation to help me find a job but some sort of assitance would have been nice.

Just as a word of encouragement many of the guys I trained with who were all self-sponsored did get jobs; for some it took a while ie two or three years. For others they were line flying within a matter of months on B737, A320, B767, B757, J41, ATR42 ETC. I think we hit a golden period in the market.

Whoever you train with here is a bit of advice;

Work hard and pass every test and exam at the first attempt including the IR. Be nice, be humble. Rememeber that there are many who would kill to be where you are. Accept critisism with patience and accept praise with humility.

Just because you did a course at OATS or anywhere else does not make you Chuck Yeager. You have probably 250 hours ish when you finish - you have not even started learning yet.

Enjoy what you are doing EVERY day and thank God for the opportunity that has been given to you. Be positive. Then someone, somewhere will notice you and you may find yourself with your dream job.

[cunningplanmylord]

I went to OAT for an interview concerning the APP programme and was told by one of their marketing guys, who was incidently an ATPL graduate (from oxford) .........without an airline job.....bells ringing!

He informed me,

Success is almost guaranteed especially through the theory exams because they, " have such a strong connection with the CAA, class instructors know the examiners well and can predict what will turn up on the papers on each sitting"
I almost pissed myself with laughter, what a load of s'#t!

He then showed me through the school where every one looked like they were having the time of the life............. and from looking at their accomodation either on campus or the prospect of having to live off, I can see why!!!

Throughout the whole time I was there he mentioned the 737-400 sim about 15 times and even made it the grand finale of the tour.

I left feeling sick about what I would be getting for my 75-80k.

I know this is an experience that I have had personally and may differ from person to person. It does seem a tragic waste of money and would encourage people to check it themselves.

Concluding thoughts have to be either go modular or to BAE.

And remember, with respect to that job at the end, its not what you know but who you know... get networking

[oyo624]

Slightly off the the main thread so apologies........

Cunningplanmylord,

I left feeling sick about what I would be getting for my 75-80k

Why do you come up with that figure as the cost for this programme?

You must have known that the Course cost was £60,000 before you even went to have a look around OATS - its well advertised on their website so its not hard.



"OPTIONAL" accomodation = 10,000 (oxford) + 2000 (Tyler) - full board
Even if you decide on the outlandishly expensive 'STUDENT' accomodation with full board the final figure is 72,000.


Why pipe the figure to 80K?. Its always possible to sort accomodation out with fellow students at a considerably lower price while at oxford, lets say four in a house @ 1000quid a month basic rent (if lucky), that works out at 62.50quid a week each for basic rent , then about £3 utility bills each per week (40 a month for the house), £70 a week to live (it possible as a student !!) and to get to and from Oxford i.e would try not to be too far from oxford!!! This is a total of 135.5 per week compared with 196 per week in the Oxford accomodation halls.

here is how I work the cost.......

51 weeks in oxford = 135.5 X 51 = 6,910
14 weeks Tyler (No choise?) =2,000
Subtotal 1 =8,910

Flight Training cost =60,000 (Ist attempt, Licence issue, flights to/from US, visas)
Contingency 6% 3,600 (grnd/flight retakes)
Subtotal 2 =63,600

Total cost for the 65 weeks = 72 510


not much differcence with the nominal costing of 72,000 above, but this time you have over three grand to play with if you hit a few hurdles along the way, if you pass everthing first time then this dosh may go towards a FI/type rating if needs must.....but thats another story!!

So where do you get 75 - 80K?

I know 72,510 is still outlandishly expensive for a JAA CPL/IR and 6, 739 more expensive than BAe systems currently exchanging at (62,171 GBP) less the contingency factor of 3,600 mentioned above.


oyo624

P.S I'm just a prosepective student looking at all the options- well only considering one of the options here in this post COST!!!

[Desk-pilot]

I'm in a similar position to others here - I want to do a full time integrated course (because lets face it that's what airlines prefer) - I don't know why but it seems to be the case.

I thus have three options: Oxford, Cabair and BAe. Now BAe is not really cheaper than Oxford when I take into account the fact I'm married and will have to spend money toing and froing to see the wife at weekends.

Cabair - great attitude, seems to have fine groundschool results and a refreshingly no bull**** approach to job prospects. I also think that the fact they do all the training in the UK is a huge advantage - just think, you get used to busy airspace and crap UK weather from day1. The price is great value at around £47000 and the aircraft I saw at Cranfield looked pretty smart. On the other hand the simulator facilities weren't as good as OATS and the campus felt a bit ramshackle and in need of some basic paint and TLC. It doesn't make a jot of difference to the training, just my state of mind while I'm training.

Then there's OATS. Expensive, but the best facilities, simulators and course notes of the bunch. In addition, they give you a few little extras like the pre-JOC course, more time on twins than most of the other schools etc. The whole place has an air of professionalism and gloss not unlike the airlines, but there is an undeniable smell of marketing bull too and whilst I don't worry about the quality of instruction, I do worry about the whole place being a sausage factory. In short I worry that if you struggle with a course element, you won't get any personal help or extra tuition, well not unless you pay extra for it. I sensed more human compassion at Cranfield and even at BAe. One example of this is that having been in touch with OATS marketing for months I asked them to let me know when a price rise was in the offing with a courtesy phone call. They didn't, so now I'm going to have to pay £7000 more for the course - it's not negotiable, it's just hard luck so I've lost out because of their administrative inefficiency. BAe phoned me proactively (I hadn't asked them to) to advise that prices would shortly be rising and invited me to book now to secure the older price.

I'd love to see more choice of Integrated provider and BCFT for example would probably do well with their excellent location and facilities if they offered one at a sensible price.

Desk-pilot

[The African Dude]

oyo624

The accommodation at Tyler is room only.

Regards,

Andy

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Look I taught at BAE and have friends who joined OATS and CABAIR. There is naff all to choose between them to be honest.

You could do modular groundschool with Bristol who have received nothing but copious praise on this board for years now.

You could do a modular CPL IR with a smaller school somewhere possibly close to home. Do you realise the quality of instruction that lurks in unlikely corners of odd airports? It can be amazing. There are little schools out there with an aircraft per instructor. Where each instructor has been doing the job for 10 years+. Where you get the personal attention of the CFI every other day of the week.

Where the fees are small.

Honest - in the current market I wouldn't want to rush the training so go modular and save thousands.

When the good hiring times are here the large FTO's have an advantage. Airlines with cadet programs at the schools will often ask the school to recommend a few self sponsored students for the airline to look at. Sometimes this is due to there being a couple of failures of cadets under training.

This being the case going to Super Duper FTO Plc can be a good thing as it increases your chances of tagging onto the back of a cadet scheme.

But there are no cadet schemes in schools now and there won't be for a while. No airline is going to call the CFI's office and ask for half a dozen names of "good chaps".

Therefore a lot of the 'edge' that large FTO's have is gone.

The large expensive intensive course certainly suits some people. Going the modular way under your own steam is more daunting and challenging. You won't have the back up and support of a training coordinator or more importantly - a bunch of coursemates.

But for a circa £30,000 saving. Hell.

Good luck,

WWW

[witchdoctor]

Desk Pilot

As regards the 'sausage factory' at OAT, I am sorry to say that if you are having difficulty at any point in the course (seemingly regardless of the circumstances surrounding it), you will be left behind and prety much forgotten about, even if you fight your corner. This happened to some good friends of mine, and needless to say they have now taken their remaining business elsewhere.

[no sponsor]

What's difficult about the Cranfield NDB approach? I did this for my IMC test, so a I/R chappie should be able to take it in their stride, surely, or am I missing something?

[Red Ice]

For some time now I have been monitoring the postings on FTO's

I'm going to start my training later this year, I don't want to go modular as the best schools are miles from where I live and i'm not keen on the distance learning idea! My job is poorly paid so there is no incentive to remain in work why studying. Therefore for me, integrated is the option although the costs are larger.

My problem is where to choose? i'm down to two, BAE or OAT.

Not holding my breath, ive been to OAT for the selection. I went there with a very closed mind thinking after much forum reading, i'd have a polite look not caring whether i get in!

However, as the selection days went on and i saw round the place, i thought it would be a good place to train, staff are polite, friendly etc. The halls were ****e but i'm not bothered by that! Sims look good and the place had a heathly glow, clean, modern class rooms, the aircraft all looked good etc, and by the end of my two day selection I really wanted to go there! (and the tour ended at the 737 sim before anyone asks)

Now, i'm stuck! Having read the bashings i'm worried! i have friends going to BAE in September and since no one slags BAE, i'm thinking yeah maybe thats the place to go!

Yes its a bit further from home but its cheaper and seems to have an untainted reputation! But by going there, and saving a few bucks, am i losing out on things that will make me more employable: industral visits, cv writing skills, a chap that promotes your CV, and 30 hours 737sim?

There must be an advantage of 737 sim time than a HS-800 8 seater jet sim they have in Jerez.

Anyway, there are pros and cons i'm sure and my next step is a trip to the pro fly training show on the 12th of April (www.flyer.co.uk) to help make a decision!

I'm sure others are in my situation, so lets forget the marketing bull**** et al talked about above, lay down facts or constructive thoughts on the advantages and disadvantages of the APP to help people like me make a decision!!

Regards

Red Ice

[Groundloop]

"There must be an advantage of 737 sim time than a HS-800 8 seater jet sim they have in Jerez. "

Not really. You are learning procedures and crew cooperation. The aircraft type is not that relevant.

After all if British Airways. Aer Lingus and MyTravel were happy with their cadets using an HS-800 sim, there appears to be no problem.

[Rowardennan]

As this thread is quite old now I was just wondering if anyone had any recent experience/knowledge of how the Oxford APP programme was working out

Are they filling courses?

Is is the selection process difficult?

I'm thinking of applying for the course but thought I would give it a while to see how it developed
I attended the Oxford seminar a few months back so I'm just looking for any up to date experiences


Not really interested in the usual Oxford bashing that seems to take place on here,just objective insights from those who know what they are talking about

Thanks

[Arrowhead]

Just wanted to say that I have just finished the ATPL groundschool with Bristol, taking exams this week. They were excellent. Anyone with any nonce should achieve all first time passes comfortably, in just six months full-time home study. Cheap and very very cheerful.


SOME VIEWS:

I am going to Florida for the CPL before Christmas, and OAT for IR in the new year. Just in case OAT is the best (we know they have receommended to BA in the past), is it not worth gambling a few £000s (one months pilot salary) just in case? OAT may be worth it, or may not - but you will only know when you do/dont get invited to the interview with an airline. Your choice. Or you could go to Michigan, USA in winter <shiver>....

There are several MCC/JOT providers and the 737 trainer at Oxford does not seem the best option anyway if you consider the industry dynamcis and the people teaching you (versus the available options).

In conclusion, no-one will hand you a job wherever you finish, so get up off your @rse and pass everything first time with flying colours. And dont skimp on the cost, because this is a very competitive market an every advantage (real or imagined) could make all the difference.


ps go the the PFT show this sat, but expect everyone to talk their own book.

[Rowardennan]

I'm really only interested in hearing about the Oxford APP programme at the moment

Hence the title of this thread

[Rowardennan]

Space_Odyssey

That's all very interesting but it's not what I was asking and not really relevant to this thread

[Rowardennan]

I appreciate the advice,but for various reasons I need to get onto an integrated course which narrows down my choices

I'm just looking at Oxford as an option and but it seems hard to come by any objective views on the place. I've been exposed to all the marketing blurb which Oxford are so good at,which I take with a pinch of salt. But having said that I give the same weight to people who bash the place because a friend of a friend of a friend told them something bad about it once in the pub


I resurrected this post given that the APP has been running for a while now someone might be able to provide an insight

I was just wondering how popular the course is proving.Are they fully subscribed?

Anyone on it at the moment?

[5150]

I concur space_odyssey!!

'bout time someone mentioned the difference between a pilot and an operator!!

Fair play to ya

[Rowardennan]

Thanks skyrocket

I sent you a pm

[BigAir]

I'm on 1 of the APP courses currently, and all I can say from my point of view it was the best decision I have made. Ground School quality is excellent (not quite the same as OATs Modular as we do a LOT more hours), can't comment on the flying as I have not started it yet.

Everyone has a different personal circumstance, it really annoys me the number of people on these forums who slate Oxford and other schools without having actually attended the course at the school. I am not going to even try and say that OATS is better than all the rest, I am not in the position to judge that. I looked at other schools, decided the APP was best for me in my circumstances and I have not regretted that decision.

Sure there have been a few little niggles as any company will have (why do the OATs ones only seem to get picked on in these forums though???). But to counter that there have been more positive surprises than niggles, and a general feeling that OATs management are doing a lot behind the scenes to make the APP work.

In short, if you feel an Integrated course is for you, and the APP appeals to you then go for it, you won't regret it unless flying is not your calling. If you are not convinced, then don't spend your money on it - would you buy a house that you didn't have a positive feeling about???

Finally, for all those people doing modular routes, just accept your chosen training path - you chose that for a reason that was relating to your personal circumstances, so don't slate something you don't know the full details about - to do so just makes you look Jealous and a bit pathetic, so just try and be constructive and help people and not be a whinger who complicates peoples decisions to spend a stupid amount of money.


Big Air


PS. For those people thinking that doing all your Modular training elsewhere and just your IR at Oxford will get them to recomend you to BA or anyone else, then you are kidding youurself - there is a big queue of APP guys that will get any recomendation first, followed by the guys who have done all their modular training at OATS, and then maybe you. Simple economics really, you try and sell the new sportscar before the lemon with an unknown history parked in the alley round the back.

[sinsall]

I first posted this topic about six months ago. I had a look around some of the schools mentioned (cabair,OAT,Airmed,Airmadrid,Delta,Atlantic)and looked for advice on this forum.

I was determined to do a intergrated course but people like the welshman,sendclowns,deltang and others made all sorts of suggestions on how to gain my atpl.

At first i felt as if i was banging my head against a brick wall,so i took bits of advice from everyone who cared to give me any constructive advice.

I thought the most important thing about the likes of OAT and Airmadrid was that they would give me a better chance of employment in the industry, i also became fixated on the sim.

I have to conclude that:
1. Hrs=greater chance of employment,not school or sim(confirmed only yesterday when I spoke to an instuctor from OAT who had just completed his intergrated)
2. The amount of money i will save doing a modular will go towards hour building/instructor and sim when required
3.The more schools I use the better networking capacity.
4. Those who say you will complete within 12 months base this on a very small % and seems 14-18months more accurate(same duration as modular)
5.There are those who need someone to hold there hand and others who dont,this is not a critisism but a fact of life and a study preference.
6.The most important factor in all of this should be your love for flying.
7. Go and hang out at these places and speak to the students and often very frustrated instructors.
8.Read how pilot pete got where he is now.

listen to the guys who have been there and done it and judge for yourself;)





:}

[Rowardennan]

Space Odyssey


I'm just curious as to your aviation background. I take it you are in some way attached to/work for Atlantic?

[FlyingForFun]

Rowardennan,

At the risk of you telling me that you're not interested in listening to me because I haven't been to Oxford, I will say up front that I've never been to Oxford.

It seems to me that you've already made up your mind, and you're looking for people to back you up in your choice. If that's the case, then go for it. Like I said, I have no first hand experience of Oxford, but I've never heard a bad word said about them other than the fact that integrated courses are often considered to be unduly expensive and they are the most expensive of the bunch. This is obviously something which you already know, and you've already justified the extra cost to yourself.

As for Space_odyssey, I'm afraid I don't have very much time for someone who signed up to the forums less than 24 hours ago, and has made 5 posts in that time all of which shout about how good one specific school is. Air Atlantique (and I've double-checked my spelling after you criticised a poster on another thread for getting it wrong) is another school I have no first-hand experience of but have heard good things about. I presume, Space_odyssey, that you did all your training there? In which case I would guess that you're not in the best position to say that they are better than Oxford, since you didn't do any training at Oxford? And you certainly haven't been to every single school there is, so there is no way that you can claim objectively that "Everybody knows that the best trained pilots are from Atlantic".

FFF
--------------

[Rowardennan]

It seems to me that you've already made up your mind, and you're looking for people to back you up in your choice


It's not that I've made up my mind at all. I'm just interested in hearing about Oxford..good or bad. I'm not trying to get anyone to back up my choices. It just seems harder to get objective information about Oxford compared to other schools as every request on these boards seems to degenerate in a bashing of the company,with very little useful information ever being put forward. I've looked into other schools and spoken to students who have/are attending. I hear people raving about Jerez but it's my understanding that the company is presently being sold off by Bae so I'm dubious about sinking all my cash into a course there at present.

The reason why I stated I wasn't interested in hearing about other schools were because questions about Oxford seem to attract the sad acts who seem to derive some sort of gratification out of running down somewhere that in all probability they have never even been to. I'm sure they have their reasons whether real or imagined,but I 'm really not interested in hearing their views if they don't have a clue what they are talking about

People like space_odyssey posting his inane drivil under an assumed alter is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to avoid



I've looked into the other options and as I've said I need an integrated course. Oxford seems a bit pricey but in other respects it fits in with the type of course I require

[sinsall]

I know this is going off the OAT subject but just have to mention my visit to Atlantique.
The staff at Atlantique where very helpfull and answered all my questions with a great deal of honesty.

In fact they were so honest they put me off,the few young graduates they take on as Pilots earn between 10-12k a year and do a hell of a lot of gardening.

I was told by their marketing manager that he has been asked to recommend pilots to airlines all of,hmmm......twice!!

They admitted to being a small school relative to the likes of OAT,but I agreed this was not a bad thing as all the students would benefit with the exta tuition and time.

For better job prospects they recommended doing the 2yr internship with their sister company in the USA, Delta Connections cus 85% of the students are employed as instuctors in the second year as to build up hours and then gauranteed an interview with Delta for a F/O position($60,000)exc.accom.

They also offered a combination of the two as most schools do for frozen ATPL for £32,000.

Overall they seem to have good quality staff,small/old fleet(for student use),and very well set up for a modular course but lack (IMHO)the connections with any airlines(delta only consider students who complete their 2year internship)

Think Space man bin snorting space dust:=

[Tazzy]

Space_odyssey

you say
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'smaller flight schools such as OATS (never heard of them until recently)!!'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'When it comes to applying for airlines, not sure if they will have heard of OATS and dont think their quilifications will be recognised'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel I must say that if you havent heard of OATS then you should do what your loggin name suggests and 'rocket' back to your own galaxy!'

[Julian]

Careful with the FO positions side of things, if you havent got a green card to work in the US then you wont be getting a job.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Odyssey - are you a troll?

Atlantic are small fry compared to OATS who are the largest UK school.

Whilst being an admirable FTO Atlantic are nothing special. They have a good reputation as a training provider. As do OATS.

In my opinion the sensible training route right now is Modular.

So I'd start by taking a look at the schools which are out there: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf

Ideally I would look to find a good school locally which can provide PPL CPL and IR modules.

Thereby ensuring I am most familiar with the local area, procedures, aircraft and staff on the day I tackle my IRT. Continuity of training will look good in my logbook, just one school and maybe one instructor will have total 'ownership' of my training and this will motivate them to do well by me. They will be well placed to give me a glowing reference.

If I make an effort to get on well with everyone there and work hard they might look to hire me as an Instructor when I finish should there be no airline vacancies.

Personally right now, living where I do and knowing what I know about training I'd do my Groundschool with Bristol via distance learning and brush up course. I'd do my PPL and CPL at Aeros in Gloucester.

I happen to know Bristol gets consistently good reviews on PPRuNe and I've met some of their students. I have heard good things about Aeros for many years and they seem to employ some good people.

There will be equally good training providers on your doorstep if you do some research.

I can see from their websites that this will cost me:

£1900 for groundschool + £750 for the CAA

PPL £5,200

CPL £4,000

Multi + IR £12,000

I'll need to build about 100hrs after the PPL before starting the CPL so I would go to the US and spend about £5,000 doing this.

I'm going to need medicals, transport, materials, food, stationary etc etc.

Lets call that £2,000

We find:

£2,650 + £5,200 + £4,000 + £12,000 + £5,000 + £2000 = £30,850

Now to be prudent we must add a 20% contingency to allow for failed exams, flightests and extra tuition required giving us a back of a fag packet budget for Zero to Hero of £37,020

Now. The OATS APP as discussed on this thread is £61,500. Unless you live near Oxford you need to add £3,000 for accomodation costs. You also need to add your 20% contingency to the course cost. This results in a comparable budget of £76,800

With savings of nearly £40,000 my decision is clear.

I would also, personally, be happier training at a smaller school where - if I want - I can have a word with the CFI without going through a course manager and associated bureacracy. I would be happier being taught from scratch to completion by probably the same bloke.

There's nothing wrong woth OATS they offer a fine product and they are very popular.

But under todays climate I wouldn't pay the premium. Same goes for all the other Integrated providers (CABAIR and BAE - named for balance!).

Cheers

WWW

[Rowardennan]

Thanks very much for the info guys

Certainly plenty to think about

[1pudding1]

Great post WWW, pointed things out very clearly and persuavsively! Very tempted to stay in Bristol after my PhD completion and do exactly what you said!! :O

[M.85]

In a few words:

OAT 14 ATPL courses:EXCELLENT! but:

If you dont want to through money out of the window..go the Modular way..Modulars have actually less hours to learn the subjects(therefore still not understanding why Integrated thouth they were so great just because they threw 60K up front)..and the stats are there..modulars have as good results as integrated ask for them for stats..
The teaching is with the same amazing instructors so level of teaching is the same..

For the flying..unless you had 99% average at ATPL..dont fly tere..eventhough teaching is very good its out of price and they tend to drain you out of money the best they can,,specially guys sponsored by foreign airlines..

Not much time left but ATPL thery the best!8 months and you are out of there..the flying make your own mind by talking to their students flying..

M.85

[Send Clowns]

Rowardennan

You said "...for various reasons I need to get onto an integrated course ...". If it is not personal, could you expand on your reasons? I have never seen any sustainable reason that a self-sponsored student should book an integrated course, even after directly asking an employee of a major school offering integrated training on this forum (he didn't even try). I am genuinely curious as to any possible reason that people choose this route.

I do work for a modular school, but have been trying to find out the advantages of integrated for years, since I was choosing a course and one school tried to sell me an integrated course, despite knowing I had over 150 hours so it was even more inappropriate than for a new pilot. It irritated me at the time so much I did not even seriously consider their modular course. Note I am not identifying the school!

[Rowardennan]

It's mainly for geographic reasons and time

I don't live in a part of the UK where I'm near any flight schools who offer any type of commercial training. I'm also restricted on a time basis as I'm taking unpaid leave from my current employment to undergo the training

So basically what I'm looking for is an all inclusive course,where I'm in one place and spend all my time getting the various steps completed in the least possible time. As I'm taking unpaid time off it's in my interests to spend all my available time working towards my licence,rather than having intervals where maybe I'm waiting around between various sections,or travelling back and forth to schools on the mainland whilst following the modular approach

I know the integrated approach is more expensive but I only have a finite amount of time before I need to make a decision on whether to return to my current employment or start trying to get employed by an airline. I just think that a full time course give me the best chance of doing this in the least amount of time

It just seems to me that the integrated approach suits my personal circumstances best

[BigAir]

WWW,

Interesting post, I have to concede that having recently had a look at Bristol Groundschools website, they seem to have a very professional setup going on - although a distance learning course was not for me personally.

You make a point about a smaller school having a more approachable CFI and not the layers of management. Well it might just be me, but I have had several chats with the OATs MD, Head of Training, SGI's (not been involved in the flying side yet, but I am sure the CFI is equally approachable), without any kind of bouncing around in management structure. Don't get me wrong, the structure of Course Mentors etc is in place, but the management doors seem to always be open if you want to go direct, so in my opinion I wouldn't say this is a disadvantage with all big schools - its definitely not the Yes Sir/No Sir environment a lot of people think it is.

Anyway, Doing the modular you missed the MCC and JOC course that you do in the APP price - 40 hours Total and a few more £££, which narrows the gap a tiny bit more. You also say £3000 for accomodation on the APP, well I think being realistic for Food, Accomodation and Socialising in and around Oxford you are looking at £700 per month - or maybe I am eating and enjoying myself too much......

Send Clowns, I think with an integrated course you can have a perceived sense of "Security" in the sense that you pay your BIG cheque and everything gets sorted for you. I think this extends more than people realise. That is to say, when you have your funding arranged and your contract signed you are commited and will be completing your training. Modular is always open to doing some modules, then having a big lifestyle change (girlfriend up the duff for blokes, you up the duff for the ladies etc.) that could mean you spending the money for your IR on something else, despite all your best intentions.

We all know the modular vs. integrated thing has been done to death over the years, I think Wannabee's can be divided up into 3 categories.

1. Those that just "Feel" integrated is best for them (whatever the reason).
2. Those that would like to do integrated, but for personal circumstance reasons can't
3. Those that Want to go Modular, save some money/keep their options open, train more locally etc

Each individual having done their research into the available options will know what they want - so lets try and get people on this Forum to be more helpful and if someone says they want info on integrated courses because it is for them, then let them have it as it is what they feel is best for them. Don't make them trawl through 20 responses saying "well have you considered modular..." because they almost certainly have.


BigAir

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BigAir - an MCC can be had for under £2,000 and nobody gives a toss where you got it from quite frankly. Hmmm, mini self funded JOC courses are a total waste of time in my humble opinion.

Unless they are tailored to certain SOPs and certain flying philosophies they can be detrimental. No airline is going to accept one as being equivalent to their own. And don't go thinking that its a 737 Simulator because it isn't, just like a Nova GTE in full skirts, blacked out windows and dustbin conversion exhaust isn't a sportscar.

When it comes to large FTO training I know a bit as I was an instructor at one. Believe me, its much easier and much less political at a 4 man band outfit to 'iron out' any difficulties. Like being double booked, always getting the duff aircraft, a distracted instructor, too fast/slow a pace etc etc. In a large FTO your instructors are always up against 'the system' which consists of the CFI, Deputy CFI, Standards Dept, Ops and Marketing. Who all have differing priorities. Each has their own pet mission on which course needs to finish when and what resources are going to be allocated to whom and how.

Trust me you are but a number in a big machine and compared to the clout of say - an airline sponsored course - you play second or third fiddle.

I've seen individuals get bolshy and its done them no good. I've seen courses of self sponsored get bolshy for ditto effect.

Whereas at Little Piddlington-on-the-Marsh School of flight training if you and the other 6 students get seriously hacked off you can march into the CFI's portacabin and damn well dictate terms. Fact.

Cheers

WWW

[BigAir]

WWW,

I know you've been through the mill of all of this a million times before - look at my profile I've been kicking around for 4 years - not as long as you I admit, but enough to know your history for sure.

You missed my point, of course a pissy little flying school in the arse end of nowhere is going to listen to what the Balshy students say more than a multi level corporate like OATs or even BAE in Jerez. All I am saying is at OATs for people who whinge saying you can't get stuff sorted because there are too many layers of middle man around just simply haven't got to know the place and how to pull the strings. I admit I have even seen it at OATs that a course who get arsey get no favours done for them. What ever school/airline/anything you end up in, find out how they like their strings pulled - and you will get any problem sorted. Trust me, there is a way at OATs currently.

Its like the people who complain blue murder at the slightest thing wrong in a restaurant - they get god knows what in their food, If you keep your cool and are nice to the staff - stuff gets sorted... Or maybe not, maybe I just have a way of dealing with people to get things done to a satisfactory conclusion, called leadership/initiative or something isnt it, might be useful as a pilot???

As regards the JOT course, well it ain't a full 737 sim but I am sure it is close enough to give you a good idea. Also, I seem to remember BA always gave their cadets a JOT course before sending them to Cranebank - I am sure they had a reason for that other than to waste a few more pounds? + an extra 15-20 hours in that kind of sim will only be a benefit for any potential sim check you get at an interview. As I understand SOPs are being used straight from a specific company so will be very representative - especially if you end up working for that company...

Moiving onto your point about being taught by the same bloke all the way through - I am of a different opinion on this, I think going into an airline environment you fly with different people everyday, your instructors are different if you move fleets/companies etc. It is good to have a variety as different people do do things in slightly different ways. I am not saying i would want 2 different instructors in the run up to my IR, but in the modular context 1 to PPL, 1 to CPL and a different 1 to Multi IR would in my book be better than 1 mediocre person all the way through, a kind of Synergistic Instructoring if you like.

BigAir

PS A nova liked you described definitely isn't a sports car, you forgot the 12" wide exhaust pipe, now that would be a sports car

[Send Clowns]

Rowardennan

Everything you want can be provided on a modular course!

A modular course takes no longer than an integrated. In fact it may not take as long overall if you work really hard at the flying side, and a large chunk can be completed away from commercial schools. Instead of a year at a commercial school you really only need perhaps 9 months.

The course can be all-inclusive, I can think of at least 4 schools (including, I admit, my own employer) who offer the whole course, and if you book correctly there need not be a gap between modules. No need to travel back and forth!

It is a misapprehension commonly repeated here that a modular course is not "full time". To most of our students it is. The option is there to sit the modules independently, but that adds to the flexibility it does not force you away from the pattern of training you want.

Big Airhave your funding arranged and your contract signed you are commited and will be completing your trainingThis is entirely possible with modular training. With my experience with SFT and other peoples with other providers it is also very unwise, and a distinct disadvantage of an integrated course! Put it in trust or escrow account to benefit your training provider as training is taken if you doin't trust yourself.

There is still no given advantage for integrated ...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You missed my point, of course a pissy little flying school in the arse end of nowhere is going to listen to what the Balshy students say more than a multi level corporate like OATs or even BAE in Jerez. All I am saying is at OATs for people who whinge saying you can't get stuff sorted because there are too many layers of middle man around just simply haven't got to know the place and how to pull the strings. I admit I have even seen it at OATs that a course who get arsey get no favours done for them. What ever school/airline/anything you end up in, find out how they like their strings pulled - and you will get any problem sorted. Trust me, there is a way at OATs currently.

Yes, well, not having to learn the political realities of a larger FTO is rather the point.

Its like the people who complain blue murder at the slightest thing wrong in a restaurant - they get god knows what in their food, If you keep your cool and are nice to the staff - stuff gets sorted... Or maybe not, maybe I just have a way of dealing with people to get things done to a satisfactory conclusion, called leadership/initiative or something isnt it, might be useful as a pilot???

You can argue anything is useful as a pilot. I don't think attending a large or small FTO makes a toss of difference.

As regards the JOT course, well it ain't a full 737 sim but I am sure it is close enough to give you a good idea. Also, I seem to remember BA always gave their cadets a JOT course before sending them to Cranebank - I am sure they had a reason for that other than to waste a few more pounds? + an extra 15-20 hours in that kind of sim will only be a benefit for any potential sim check you get at an interview. As I understand SOPs are being used straight from a specific company so will be very representative - especially if you end up working for that company...

It isn't a 737 sim and getting a good idea is a pointless exercise. Either you learn to fly a proper certified sim - or - you learn procedures and principles on a synthetic training aid. A halfway house is just an expensive way of completing an MCC. The quality of the tuition is sooooo much more important than the look and size of the box.

Moiving onto your point about being taught by the same bloke all the way through - I am of a different opinion on this, I think going into an airline environment you fly with different people everyday, your instructors are different if you move fleets/companies etc. It is good to have a variety as different people do do things in slightly different ways. I am not saying i would want 2 different instructors in the run up to my IR, but in the modular context 1 to PPL, 1 to CPL and a different 1 to Multi IR would in my book be better than 1 mediocre person all the way through, a kind of Synergistic Instructoring if you like.

Yeah, don't confuse line flying with basic training. Basic training is best delivered with continuity. Same base, same aircraft, same instructors -- as far as is practicable. As for mediocre - the best instructors I know work for small FTO's and the standards for experience required by the big boys have all declined significantly from the CAP509 days.

As always - its horses for courses. £40k is still a lot of money though. What would you rather have:

a) 185hrs piston Frzn ATPL, CPL/IR MCC and a £70,000 loan.

b) 200hrs piston Frzn ATPL, CPL/IR MCC, B737 type rating + 100hrs/70 sectors and a £65,000 loan.

It used to be the case up until Autumn 2001 that the quickest way into a jet was to rock up at a large FTO who were training airline cadets.

It is now the case that the quickest way into a jet is to rock up at a small FTO, then pay for a Ryanair or Astraeus style type rating.

The wheel will surely turn again but for now the arguments are pretty conclusive.

Cheers

WWW

[Fancy Navigator]

...If you pass the selection tests for the APP at OATS, does that mean you have a good chance to succeed (a bit like the CTC McAlpine tests for the EZY sponsorship) in your training? Or is it of no significance at all (as they could just want your money)? Are these tests relevant and accurate?
Thanks

[catherine]

Just a small point that may be of interest that was brought up in the BA talk at the flyer training show;

BA will only consider self-sponsored (SSP) students with a frozen ATPL from an approved integarated course ( the school has to recommend you).

This changes if you are a direct entry pilot (DEP- ATPL 1500hrs min) where they look at your experience rather than where you trained.

May be worth bearing in mind if you wish to work for BA in the future

[oxford blue]

To reply to Fancy Navigator's query, I suggest you read this (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=864) link of Oxford's own website and then draw your own conclusions about whether they just take anybody who can pay.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Catherine - BA have not taken any low time cadets for years, show no signs of doing so and if they did it would be a handful out of hundreds. The possible small scale intention of one company is not a good basis upon which to decide which training route to follow.

Airlines will increasingly fail to discriminate between Modular or Integrated students. You all followed the same syllabus, took the same tests and passed the same exams. I defy the average airline recruiter to tell from a logbook which route you followed...

Its merely a hangover from the last millenium when people trained under two quite distinct and differing regimes - namely CAP 509 and Self Improver.

Cheers

WWW

[Send Clowns]

Catherine

How many people are likely to end up on this route? BA are not a big first-time employer of self-sponsored students in the best of times.

Anyone setting off on a self-sponsored course with the pure aim of reaching BA is in the wrong place. Not only is it unlikely, but BA gives a career and a well-paid job, not a pilot's job. If people want that do an MBA it's cheaper. If you want to fly go for a smaller operator first. A friend of mine, BA now but with a more ... interesting ... past caused consternation a few years back in a recently-graduated BA cadet by expressing sympathy for the other pilot's route to the job. His explanation was "Well you never really flew an aeroplane"!

Note when BA were last considering recruiting self-sponsored students (August 2001) they were happy with JAR modular!

[TWOTBAGS]

Will smurf 165 please report to operations.........;)

some of you will get others will not.
horses for courses.
:E

[Gin Slinger]

It's interesting to hear that people view an Integrated course as giving them an advantage when it comes to employment.

I've recently made it into the holding pool of a major UK airline, having taken the modular route to my fATPL. In my interview I turned the fact I did my ATPL exams via distance learning into a selling point - makes a good 'story' about being self motivated, disciplined, determined, etc, etc...in my reckoning, words that will prick the ears up of an interviewer far more than OATS or any other brand name school you care to mention.

[FougaMagister]

Interesting thread - albeit a long one!

Let's face it, paying a 30K premium these days smacks of nonsense... OATS' integrated course was always that little bit more expensive than the others when one takes into account all the "extras" (like accommodation), but to see the new APP advertised for 60K+ (probably around 70K altogether) is just incredible. In this day and age, when it's so hard to get your foot on the first rung of the pilot career ladder and when Oxford have for the first time had to go "on the road" to advertise, I would have expected a new, integrated, programme to be cheaper, NOT dearer!

I have strongly disagreed with the Welshman before (though I must have been on cafeine back then), but his arguments make excellent sense.

I did the modular route, zero to MCC in 19 months, first time passes on the skill tests, all for something like 45-48K (hard to tell more accurately, as some of you will undoubtedly know), i.e. 25-27K cheaper than APP.

Not slagging off OATS - did some of me training with 'em and they were quite good. Their integrated courses are just way too expensive.

Just one more thing that WWW didn't mention: don't pay up front. Ever.

Cheers