Gliding v Fixed Wing

[Andy_R]

I have been offered the opportunity to spend some time at a local gliding club over the next few months. At the same time I will be attempting to complete my ppl(a).

Is there any potential conflict between fixed wing training and gliding?

Would I pick up any good or bad habits by mixing the two?

How different are the requirements between the two, legal and otherwise?

Would flight time be logged in the same logbook?

Any comments would be appreciated. If nothing else I feel my appreciation of flight would be increased considerably.

[BRL]

Hi mate. Is it the one at Ringmer? If it is, let us know........ [email protected]

Also have a read of this nice little thread Gliding........ (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64431&highlight=Gliding) and also do a search. Type in 'Gliding' and then select 'Private Flying' then select 'Search Titles Only'. Some good threads about all about it. :)

[Lowtimer]

Do it, but tell both instructors. Gliding is very good for you. You will become comfortable with all kinds of things that most PPLs simply don't do, will learn to use your feet properly, and will become very much more comfortable with various engine failure scenarios. You will also have lots of fun and become more fit and healthy from pushing gliders around outside all day.

Your basic handling will come on a treat - there is no such thing as straight and level in a glider, you spend hours adjusting various kinds of steep turns in bumpy air. You will learn a lot about manoeuvring right up close to the stall for long periods of time, with no stall warning horn. You will eventually be able to recover from an incipient stall and/or spin from a turn without even thinking about it.

You will find that the checks are all different, that the controls seem very light and powerful (except perhaps the ailerons) , and that you move on the air rather than through it. You will also develop an appreciation of magnificent cockpit field of vision, and this may well spoil you for high wing Cessnas or any other type where it's hard to see out.

You will learn a lot about low-altitude English weather, and it is worth it for this if no other reason.

On the other hand, you should probably watch out for two possible syndromes.

It's possible to become slightly blase about certain practices in gliders that would not be at all sensible in a most powered aeroplanes. This applies especially to the heights at which it is safe to carry out stalls, steep turns, spins and other manoeuvres including aerobatics. My original glider training at 622GS RAF Upavon involved us, as complete novices, full-stalling at down to 500 feet in the circuit. You wouldn't do that in your Group A aeroplane. I'm quite happy to spin a K13 a turn or two from 2000 feet but with a powered aeroplane I look for recovery to be complete by 5000 feet agl.

When coming back to power, watch out for an undesirable habit I noticed in myself, having quite a bit of solo gliding before my PPL. That is a tendency to commit to landing. That's exactly what you must do in a glider, of course, but I found in the PA-28 once I was on final, if anything went wrong (someone on the ground occupying the runway, a nasty gust, a bad bounce) my natural reaction was to sort it out on the ground rather than in the air. In most such situations in a power aeroplane, of course the correct action is to open up and go round again, and indeed I now remind myself "Go around if necessary" as part of my last-ditch short-final checks, along with Prop, Undercarriage, Flaps.

If you are an experienced power aerobatic pilot, please don't try aerobatics in a glider without very thorough dual instruction, or you risk being way past VNE with the wings falling off in no time. Glider aerobatics have significant complications - it's not so much the lack of power as other factors e.g. the minimal drag, the way the airbrakes usually reduce the G limit when deployed, and the lack of slipstream over the tail surfaces at very low speeds.

[Chilli Monster]

Lowtimer's covered just about everything. The only thing to add is you can't log the time in the same logbook - separate ones only.

[Monocock]

You havent got time for gliding have you cloud69...........

you should be reading that book.................!!!!!!!!!!!

Monocock:O

[Andy_R]

Never ceases to astound me the response from the contributors of these threads. Thanks guys.

Big Red L
Last look at PPRuNe before going home from work so will indulge in those links in morning. And yes to Ringmer, I'll e-mail.

Lowtimer
Thanks for all the detail, sounds great.

Chilli Monster
Important bit of knowledge that one. Cheers.

And Monocock :ooh:
Book hasn't arrived into my palms yet but when it does it may well pay for the extra curricular stuff!!!!! See update for thread you're referring to :D

[Mobieus1]

Did a bit of gliding myself before starting my PPL. I rang the CAA and they I could only contribute 10% of my gliding hours up to maximum of 10Hrs. That will be only 1Hr towards your PPL. Waste of time bothering really.

On the other hand gilding is really good fun. Will you be doing cable launchs?

[wysiwyg]

Big Red L - if you fly at Ringmer I sent your CFI off on his first solo some years ago!

[MLS-12D]

At the risk of sounding pedantic: gliding IS fixed wing training. This is more than semantics, since flying sailplanes and airplanes is much more similar than, say, flying helicopters and airplanes.

I can't see how anyone would pick up bad habits from one that would compromise performance in the other. Perhaps a few minor things (e.g. most power pilots don't use their feet enough; most glider pilots have little or no radio discipline), but nothing that can't be easily overcome with a little competent instruction. On the plus side, experience in both will tend to make you a better-rounded pilot.

I agree with Mobieus1 that if your primary purpose is to build time towards a PPL or CPL, gliding experience is an inefficient way to do it. On the other hand (as he says) it's a lot of fun, and will sharpern your stick and rudder skills.

If you can find a copy in the library, take a look at Robert Buck's book, "The Art of Flying" (1984), and especially the chapter entitled "The Case for the Glider".

[Andy_R]

MLS-12D

You are correct. Should have been "SEP v Gliding" I guess.

The Log Book question was purely a technical one, not worried about the hour building side re gliding anyway. Was looking at it as furthering my knowledge and skills and having fun!

I believe that it is a mixture of aerotow and winch launches Mobieus1, the thought of winch launches I will admit scares the hell out of me, but sure one gets used to it.

Thanks for your input guys.

[Chilli Monster]

cloud69 - your first winch launch will be a big surprise, after that you'll feel at home. Nothing to worry about at all. Out of nearly 800 launches gliding 700 of mine were probably winch - no worries :)

[chrisN]

I have been told by a PPL converting to gliding that what happens at the top of a winch launch seems alarming because it has characteristics similar to sudden engine failure in an SEP. You will get used to it, and being briefed by an instructor experienced in converting PPL's to gliding would help.

In a normal winch launch, near the top, the angle of the cable pulling down is such that little net upward movement of the glider continues, and at the point of diminishing returns the winch driver reduces power to about idling. The glider pilot (flying) perceives this as a speed reduction, lowers the nose - from pointing up, to the normal glide angle (which is pointing a bit down) - and releases the cable.

If the pilot does not react to the reducing power, the cable goes slack and a clever feature of the hook releases ("back releases") the cable anyway, which makes a noise. The glider nose will then drop anyway, thought the pilot really should react by now!

Either of these, I am told, seems alarming. In fact, you soon get used to it.

During the launch, things seem to a newbie to happen so fast that the brain is several yards behind the glider. With experience, you become used to it and the separate phases of the launch become distinguishable and you get comfortable with it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Passing comment on the subject of logbooks.

I fly microlights (3-axis and flexwing), SEP, the occasional glider, the occasional motorglider, and the occasional military backseat. I use a single logbook.

If you would prefer to use only one logbook, buy a posh commercial one with thousands of column headings, and simply make up some labels on your PC to replace "IMC multi-engine night" or somesuch that you're unlikely ever to use for the alternate column headings. Various flying schools, bits of the CAA, etc. have seen that in my logbook and are perfectly happy.

You can get nice leather covers for the commercial logbooks too if you are a snob like me and prefer it to look good on the shelf.

G

[pulse1]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the effects of wind gradient - in a glider you speed up to approach, and the stronger the wind the more you speed up. As you do not have any spare energy in the engine, speed is the only way you can do it. I once lost 20k at about 50' at Dunstable on my first east wind solo. At an approach speed of 65k, no problem but the chap behind me spun in trying to do a 360 after a cable break, and his lower wing got into the wind gradient.

Just like motorcyclists learn to read the road surface better, and yachsmen often know more about the relationship between sea and wind, glider pilots seem to be much more concious of air and wind conditions. Although I am biased on all counts, I think a bit of gliding is excellent preparation for power flying.

[Kolibear]

You've got to do it - its a valuable and enjoyable experience.

The biggest difference is the silence! You can converse with the guy in the back seat normally and can judge windspeed by the noise of the air rushing over the canopy. It will teach you to fly more accurately too.

On the very few times I've been gliding, I've always been surprised by the lack of turbulence. Although theres been a strong wind blowing off the hills and the tug has been bouncing around, the glider seemed unaffected.

Stalls always seemed a non-event too, at 35kts, the nose dropped gently and we recovered after a height loss that seemed like inches.

I can't wait to go again!

[Mobieus1]

I found cable launchs fun and cable break practice just scared the willys out of me. Especailly the low ones :eek:

It will help the flying a great deal. It only took me 6hours to go solo in a SEP thanks to my previous experience.

Definitly worth doing.

[MLS-12D]

Don't worry about winch launches: you'll find them to be great fun.