Holding above FLl140 in london

[STAN DEASY]

The other day I was reminded of something a 'wise' old captain in my last company said. Sadly I dont know if its true or his fantasy and I was hoping someone here could help as I cant find the answer in any of the books I have looked in.

Basically this chap said that when holding at LAM, BNN. BIG or OCK above FL140, ATC are not happy with 1.5 min holding patterns as they take up too much airspace. True or False?

If true, does anyone have a reference.

Many thanks

[5milesbaby]

On the STAR plates UK-AIP for Heathrow, max speed upto FL140 is 220kts, above this 'Standard ICAO' speeds apply. I know this doesn't exactly answer the question, but shows there is a difference at the levels you state. Further to this, the stacks in the TMA (with exception of LAM) are only separated upto FL150, which is maxmium normal used level in each. How this is calculated definately depends on what the leg lengths are stated as, I believe its 1 min unless otherwise authorised and cannot see any authority on the STAR charts, therefore what your chap said is correct in part, but the reason being you aren't procedurally separated from the other stacks!!!!

However I must point out I'm not a TMA controller and am using a VERY dusty blue book, but someone will no doubt correct me quicker if I'm wrong :ok:

[Topofthestack]

I would generally agree with the 'wise old Captain'. As a TMA controller the last thing I want is holding aircraft taking up loads of sky, especially with the conflicting inbound and outbound routes we have today. We're getting to the stage where if we want more capacity out of our airspace then everything has to fly standard routes and patterns and the short-cuts/'goodies' become harder and more complicated to achieve. The other problem is that if you extend the holding area then you may come into conflict with other holding areas if they're 'holding high' as well, or even go outside CAS e.g. LOREL. Confliction with other holding areas is part of the problem why you'll probably be refused an extension, or given a restriction, to the holding area if you're holding at OCK & BIG below FL150 as they conflict with WILLO/TIMBA. Add to this, we have a particular problem with the FMS of certain types of aircraft when they initially enter the hold, turning the aircraft VERY wide which makes it particularly scary when watching traffic holding at LAM & BIG. It all adds up to a pretty tight operation in a constricted TMA; you can always ask to extend a hold, but don't expect it, and make a habit of it. If we're 'holding high' then it's obvious that we're busy and busy means extra workload! An additional problem is that when you ask, we should speciific when you have to resume normal holding, which takes up extra RT time. A visit to LTCC would help illustrate the problem. :D

[STAN DEASY]

Thank you both for your answers.

They both confirm what I thought but when flying with Captains who are less enlightened, they say they have never heard of this and consequently think its a 'made up fact'

Does anyone have a reference that can be quoted and promulagated?

Thanks for the suggestion of a visit, I have been a few years ago and was agog at the complexity and efficiency of the operation.
As a regular operator out of LHR can testify that its not a job that I could do (the kids extract all my patience so there would be precious little left for errant aircraft!)

VMT

[BOAC]

For any UK LONDON TMA 'big wheel'

The problem we appear to have is that ICAO state 'shall be 1.5 mins above FL140' and therefore if it is (understandably!) desired that a/c are NOT flying 1.5 minute legs at 240kts IAW ICAO, some sort of note needs to be published?

My understanding of the major London holds is that the DME references relate to inbound joining patterns so the pattern COULD 'enlarge' above FL 140. This links naturally to this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=83236) thread in which I'm not convinced we got the definitive answer relating to turn-in DME for these holds? It would appear logical that we fly 1 minute legs at 220kts at FL 140 and below and 1.5 minute legs at FL140 and above WITH THE PROVISO PERHAPS THAT WE DO NOT EXCEED THE END OF PATTERN DME FIGURE? This will 'contain' the hold.

I'm off to aviate now so will have to follow this up later. I cannot find the answer at the moment in any of the docs to hand.

Can anyone quote chapter and verse from an ATC bible?

[Topofthestack]

The reference that I can find is UK AIP ENR 3-6-1-2 (28 Nov 02) which just states that above FL140 ICAO Standards will apply, i.e. 1.5 minute holds. However, later in the En-route holding patterns it clearly states that inbound turns at specified holding patterns MUST be made by certain DME distances (see the appropriate holding pattern specifications ref. UK AIP ENR 3-6-1-3 & 4). To me this doesn't just mean when joining the hold, the DME distances are there to define the holding area and separate them from other patterns or to stop them going outside CAS.:)