"Commercial Pressure"

[covec]

Situation: C152 / Wind 70 degrees off rw at 22kts gusting 32. 2000ft wind is 40kts.

Management says Go!

Question 1: Do you go?

Question 2: Who will come to your aid if you get it wrong?

Fly Safe!

[Tinstaafl]

What is **your** assessment of your capability?

Do you believe you can complete the flight safely? Do you believe you can meet the objectives of the flight? If not those objectives are there others that could be achieved? If not, can you modify the flight?

etc etc...

That's commercial reality.

[Oktas8]

Hate to say it covec, as you have probably already thought of this, but, if you don't go, you could lose your job. If you do, and get it wrong, you could end up paying for the aircraft damage (the insurance company probably won't pay in crosswinds well above Cessna's max demonstrated crosswind).

Best of luck with your management, and hope you get a better job soon!
O8

[Doghouse]

Difficult one covec.

Remember you can always refer the management back to your club flying order book. This should have the gust limits in it and if you exceed them, then you'd be right to say no - and you could argue on commercial grounds that the insurance risk is too great if you fly outside the SOPs.

Tinstaafl is right. If it is outside your personal limits then you should say no - I think most CFIs would accept you saying that you don't think you can safely cope with the conditions. What's more, can you reasonably expect to achieve the training objectives with that weather?

I'd be interested to know what the mean wind was and how frequent the gusts were. If the mean wind were within crosswind limits and the gusts were within Flying Order book limits, then you're in a more difficult position. If this is the case you're saying that you can't operate even within the limits of the SOP and that is a commercial issue. If in doubt, speak to your CFI and ask him/her to take you up in those conditions to help improve your personal limits.

BTW, don't worry too much. All CFI's/club managers are under pressure after this winter. Once things improve, so will his/her mood. Stick to what you think is safe and everything will come out in the wash.

[covec]

Thanks for the opinions, guys.

Doghouse: mean wind was 22kts vs C152 demonstrated xw of 12kts. Gusts were not that frequent - say every 5 minutes, and were only just outside the organisation's 30kt limit.

The winter has been hard, and I would fly in these conditions if it meant ensuring commercial survival. It's just this nagging "what if" & a matter of feeling a sense of betrayal to the customer as he/she are about to get a rough ride & probably nothing out of it - although the rough conditions would in itself be a good learning point....

..typical FI....use every learning experience possible!!!

Tough work, isn't it?

All the Best.

[Doghouse]

Aint it just!

With that weather, I think 'no' was probably an okay decision.

Incidentally, if you're interested I lose far more sleep from my instructors going out in weather beyond their personal limits than I do from them saying 'no'.

[Leclairage]

Yet another no fly day in parts of South East - with C!bair seeking voluntary redundancies (or will enforce if not enough takers) Flying Schools must be in pretty poor shape.
Hard call to make if weather marginal, and profitability of the business all but disappeared.
Am thinking about becoming an Instructor, and would hope that CFI/MD would respect my decision to fly/not fly.
I remember well 'wasted' lessons where Instructor insisted going up in silly conditions for the exercise under way, and I got nothing from it. All that ensued was a pixxed off student with money wasted!

[Pilot Paul]

Hi

Not a flying instructor (yet!), but as far as I recall, the Aircraft Flight Manual forms part of the Certificate of Airworthiness. Therefore to operate outside of the limits written down in the AFM is to invalidate the CoA. I am pretty sure that the insurance company are going to be extremely unhapppy about that and also I suspect that it is illegal in any case...(happy to be corrected!)

Still not easy to tell your employer that you won't do it, but ultimately it is the aircraft commanders responsibility, not the employers, to ensure that the flight is conducted both safely and legally.

Cheers,

Paul

[inbalance]

Some POH say "demonstrated crosswind" and some say "max crosswind".
I can speek for german law only, it is ilegal to fly above max crosswind, but it is ok according to the law, to fly above demonstrated crosswind. But you will get problems with the insurance when you fly above the demonstrated crosswind component.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmmm, difficult, been there and got several t shirts.

Often at smaller airfields accurate data is not available. At middling airfields it is not recorded and therefore your discretion is paramount.

My epiphany of go-no go instructor decisions came with my very first job at a smallish PPL school in Wales...

I got the job because the previous incumbent flew himself and 2 others into a mountainside in poor weather.

That focuses the mind somewhat. Particularly as Old Mother Welshman was quite aware from the local press that here only heir and son was stepping into the shoes of someone currently being scrapped off a nearby hillside.

In the immediate aftermath limits were lowered and observed with rigour. As time marches on people forgot.

What helped a lot was ALL the instructors ganged together to create a pact. If one thought it unsafe to fly they all thought it unsafe to fly. Regardless of the CFI or Owner. Everyone held the line and this largely solved the problem.

The pressure really applies when you are not happy to fly but another instructor is. Suddenly he gets the money. He gets the good students. He gets the weekends off. He gets the checkrides and perks.

New instructors were sat down behind the hangar within their first week and given the unoffical FI union line and to a man they gladly accepted it. I've seen every type of limit busted every type of way in my short instructing career and all but one got away with it and learned about fly from it.

One didn't. He was a good man, good pilot (1,000'hrs RAF FJ) and unlucky.

The other issue to consider is that training in poor weather has very little value for the student. I have been guilty of it. Trying to teach a bit of instrument flying in cack weather with half a mind to the logbook and paycheck. Its not the right thing to do.

I look back and note that a grounding of FI work under commercial pressure did me no harm in forming my attitude now in air transport ops. Some people, often low time, focus very much on the book and whats legal. They feel overly nervous when it comes to refusing a duty, choosing a non-commercial alternate or loading the extra for mum plus the kids plus the dog.

Instructing errors made with 2 POB scared me enough to have little hesitation with regard to 154 POB.

That said.

Those that avoid every challenging flight avoid their own development. Pushing and then finding your limits is the path to enlightenment. It is a long path.

WWW

[Ludwig]

WWW, this may be a bit off topic, and if so, apologies, but you mentioned in your last that flying in dodgy conditions is of no benefit to studes. I am not advocating dangerous flying here, but I can recall a couple of lessons vividly from when I was doing my PPL in which we took off in very dodgy wx, probably because the instructor felt pressured. One was a take off on one runway into clag and bumps at about 300 feet, low level turn to land straight away on an adjacent runway, and the other was departing in driving rain into cloud on a declared VFR departure. Whilst I think I got both of these lessons foc because obviously the then school owner realised it was not a chargeable lesson in hindsight however it was useful as it taught me why you do not lob-off into bad wx, so not a total waste.:=

[Mister Geezer]

My view might be very hard line but at the end of the day 'if' anything did go wrong then it is your licence and indeed your career that is at stake. Management can live to work another day but for the humble instructor, the picture could be very different. The PPL establishment that I am going to be working at is very relaxed and if you don't want to fly then no one will question your judgement since we all have different experience and tolerance levels. IMHO it should be like that in every FTO but sadly it won't and the pressure will remain on the shoulders of some FIs for now and in the future. It always seems that it is the FTO's that apply no commercial pressure, are the best places to work at, due to the atmosphere and relationship with other staff and management!

[Tinstaafl]

IF you can do the flight safely AND you can do it legally AND you can meet the objectives of the flight (altered to suit conditions as necessary) THEN & only then should you do the flight.


However, if you just don't feel like flying because it's too early/late/cold/hot/want to go to a party/movie/concert then it's tough titty. That's what your being paid to do. PPLs get to fly when they want to, CPLs get to fly when someone else wants to.