LFAT - The Usual Chaos

[2Donkeys]

This morning was interesting. The weather started off looking good, but most of the TAFs had the vis dropping, and cloud rolling in during the course of late morning early afternoon.

We flew from the UK to Le Touquet, on an airways flightplan, and started our descent across the channel at around 11:30Z. London Control handed us to Lille Approach/Information (120.27 - responsible for inbound VFR/IFR aircraft from the Channel to LFAT) passing through FL90 with about 15 miles to run, and our morning got suddenly worse.

Despite forecasts, the weather at Le Touquet was quite poor. The ATIS hadn't really been updated to reflect reality... which was OVC012 and vis around 4000 metres at times (occasionally signficantly less).

As we spoke to Lille, he struggled through his dreadful command of English to put us into the stack at LT at FL50. He already had a SE England Flying School Cessna practising holds at 3000 feet.

So we entered the hold, and Lille struggled to make the school aircraft understand that practising holds in the deteriorating weather was not helping because there was "real" IFR traffic that wished to use the approach. After a few heavy hints, the school aircraft was cleared down the approach, and we dropped down to 3000 feet in turn, just sitting on top of the overcast. Meanwhile a Duchess, decided to "become" IFR and attempted to get vectors onto the ILS, only to be told of the queue. It finally got climbed to FL50 and took up the hold above us.

Down below, the usual variety of Brits continued to arrive from across the channel, claiming to be VMC at anything from 1200 feet to 3000 feet, with some flying "on top". The usual opener was a request for "Radar Advisory Service" or "Radar Information Service" (none of which exist in France). Some wanted vectors towards the field, and some wanted vectors onto the ILS although when questioned as to whether they were on an IFR or VFR flight plan, they went all shy.

Some tried to join the localiser from mid channel, and became cross when Lille explained that there was "real" IFR traffic using the procedure (the quality of English now deteriorating even from its previous low starting point). Some requested "IFR cloud breaks" and "vectors down to 1000 feet". Some requested IFR clearances to Calais to shoot the ILS there- and do you know what.... I would guess that just a few of them didn't have instrument ratings? Patronising perhaps, but easy enough to spot.

As a result, chaos reigned, with both the school aircraft's approach, and our own, being hazarded by pseudo IFR types blundering around the approach area instead of approaching by land from the North of the field, as per their VFR joining instructions. Our own approach was delayed for nearly 20 minutes after the approach of the school Cessna whilst Lille valiantly attempted to remove "VFR" traffic from the approach area, many of whom swore blind they were in "good VMC", despite being at levels we knew to be in solid cloud.

I have no idea if the SRG read this forum - but if they do, I would strongly urge that they take a day-trip to Le Touquet one marginal Saturday and start inspecting the crew-licences of arriving UK aircraft.

The combination of the poor English RT of the Lille ATCO, the indisciplined and dubious practices of many UK pilots, and the poor vis is a potential killer, and today is far from being a one off.

[/RANT]

Was anybody else there today, who feels like commenting?

[drauk]

I've only been there in good VMC so I can't comment on specifically what happens there. However, it does strike me that some of those people that were "blundering down the approach" may well have been IMC rated (would many non-IMC rated pilots attempt it?). This doesn't mean what they were doing is allowed or legal (which obviously is not) or even sensible, but it does mean that they may have been capable of doing so. So what happens in the UK where they are allowed to do it? Is the main problem the controllers RT?

[2Donkeys]

Note that I did not say that they were "blundering down the approach"... suggesting that they were perhaps not very accurate in their attempts to shoot an ILS.

What I actually wrote was that they were:

"blundering around the approach area"

... meaning that they were flying in less-than VMC conditions in the vicinity of an active instrument approach, having either called Le Touquet late, or ignored instructions to join from the North of the field, where they would not interfere with the Instrument Approach.

This would be unacceptable in the UK, just as it is in France, and whilst the French controller was having difficulty making himself understood, this was as much a consequence of the pressure that he was being put under by the awful display of airmanship being fielded by the Brits.

Whereas in the UK, we have a somewhat lax set of rules over whether a flight declares itself to be IFR or VFR when outside controlled airspace, in France, IFR flights file flight plans, are flown by IR-holders and are under positive control.

I suppose the real message behind my rant is:

If you want to fly to France and the weather isn't really good enough, go somewhere else. Don't try announcing yourself to be on or near the localiser at LFAT on first contact, asking for half-baked pop-up IFR clearances that you are not legally permitted to accept.

I really want to see CAA Flight Standards on the ground taking a pro-active role in dealing with this. Put me on 10% of the fines collected, and I'll stand at the threshold taking reggies. I collected a few today. ;)

[Static Discharge]

I have flown into LFAT quite a few times --- both IFR and VFR --- and find the level of control there appalling. They very quickly become overloaded and go into "freeze" mode and are seemingly incapable of taking positive control of the situation and directing traffic. If you add to weak controllers the usual gaggle of UK visitors using the terminology the French controllers aren't aware of, e.g., "overhead at 2K descending dead side" you have a perfect formula for a disaster.

I have stopped flying to LFAT for exaclty this reason.

[dirkdj]

It's been a long time since I flew into LFAT too, for the same reasons.

I think those who are IR rated and current should use the rating and file, flying half-and-half (mixing VFR and IFR) is dangerous.

Either you fly VFR in VMC or fly IFR in IMC. There is no harm in changing the flight plan (and mindset) in flight to IFR.

Lille Approach is easily overloaded, but think about it, how would the (mostly excellent) typical UK ATCO cope if the official aviation language would be french or spanish?.

[Jeffrey]

I flew into LFAT on a Zulu flight plan yesterday, VFR to LFFF, then IFR to LFAT, which experience has taught me is the best way to prevent Lille diverting you elsewhere when LFAT goes below VFR minima. As I usually fly a twin I have found that on coasting out at Lydd attempting to contact Lille at that point gives sufficient time to get 'slotted in'.

Though yesterdays arrival at 10.30 Z was uneventful, about an hour later we were delayed on departure for 15 minutes by a stream of single-engined arrivals, which were most probably the cause of the understandable 'rant'.

I have previously called Lille ATC on being previously amateurishly handled by them, to be told with a typical Gallic shrug, 'well what can you expect when the 'B' team is on duty at the weekend. You can't say you have not been warned.

[Stampe]

Only go anywhere near LFAT in conditions of good VMC (I am instrument rated) for all the reasons stated above.Problems especially occur when the forecast for the day was given as good the previous day and fails to meet expectations and when good weather in the Uk is not reflected in Northern France.Pilots seem reluctant to admit defeat!!.Contollers seem to get overloaded very quickly!! all in all best avoided!!.:rolleyes:

[drauk]

2Donkeys, sorry for misquoting you. At first glance it seems a minor thing, but "down" and "around" make quite a difference in this case. I guess I just misread it originally.

[Barney_Gumble]

I have only been twice and then only elected to go on working weekdays. Even then the last time I went in June last year there were only two a/c inbound at the time and there was still some confusion leading to me being legitimtely downwind right hand for 32 the then active r/w and the other fella being downwind left hand for 14. Suffice it to say he broke off and I landed had a nice time but decided not to return!

Plenty of other nice places to go for my hobby flying apart from the Le Touquet honeypot.

Andy

[bookworm]

I recall a trip to LFAT about 18 months ago when a front was just clearing through east to west. We were in clear conditions off the coast VFR, but the weather passed to us included a visibility of about 3000 m. I asked for a SVFR clearance, and, after some exchanges that left me wondering if the controller understood the point, got one.

It strikes me that the conditions you describe were not conditions in which VFR was even possible in the zone. If the CTR were class D, the controller might bear some responsibility for admitting them, but it's class E. In theory if the flights are VFR they don't even have to talk to him as they plough through the IAP. Even so, I wonder if there's a French variant on ICAO Rule 4.2 that prohibits VFR arrivals with a (observed) vis < 5km or a cloud ceiling less than 1500 ft except with a (presumably SVFR) ATC clearance. Perhaps the French are less robust about enforcing this than some other states.

So I do think ATC at LFAT could occasionally be a little more assertive -- it would certainly increase my confidence. But I too have seen some lamentable airmanship from UK pilots at LFAT. So what is to be done to educate them?

[2Donkeys]

So what is to be done to educate them?

I am sure that in part it is education.

On the other hand, I am equally sure that many of the offenders know that they are in the wrong, and are taking advantage of LFAT's legendary reputation for being lax on the vis and night rules (for departures as well as arrivals), and their tendency to shrug their shoulders in the face of a flow of English over the RT.

I am pretty sure that a ramp check or two on an appropriate day or three each year would do wonders. I will happily fly the CAA over for the occasion. ;)

[High Wing Drifter]

Think your self lucky that half of them weren't trying to do Run'n'Breaks.

[Flyin'Dutch']

LFAT has indeed the unlucky combination of an easily flustered ATC and a honeypot effect of Brits, Belgians and the occassional Dutchman.

It is not only in IFR conditions that things go t@ts up.

Remember Good Friday last April. Reasonable VFR albeit vis approx 8k; every man and their uncle in the circuit with at one point approximately 8 aircraft on a RH circuit and 3 LH with the slowest being a 150 and the fastest a Citation.

Complete RT chaos until an assertive replacement obviously kicked his predecessor out of the tower.

Calm and efficiency resumed and after holding for some time over Boulogne approached and landed uneventful (well only cut up by one 172) on base.

Methinks an accident waiting to happen over there on a good flying day. Make sure it isnt you!

:eek:

FD

[Barney_Gumble]

High Wing Drifter

Do they do VRIAB at LFAT as well :eek:

Seems to be the subject of the moment that activity. Sorry I asked about it in the first place. I certainly know what they are now though :p

Andy

[Fuji Abound]

A year ago I stood in the bar at L2K with the usual bunch of Brits bemoaning the weather. The cloud was on the deck - I doubt the base was better than 500 feet and tops were reported at 3500 feet. There was a mixture of IMC holders and lapsed IMC holders and one or two who had done a bit of IMC training - about a dozen in all. The base lifted a little, maybe to around 750 feet - they all went except two. I think their logic was they were so close to the FIR so if anyone complained they would claim to have remained VMC beneath until the boundary. In fact they all climbed through the overcast on departure.

Now my own hobby horse is give the IMC holders European IR privileges or a sensible route to an IR, in my experience many IMC holders who are current and fly regularly IFR are very competent BUT the fact remains none of these pilots had the privileges to do what they did and that is not acceptable.

I went a bit later at the same time as a very experienced Yak delivery pilot and was in VMC at 1000 feet but with a solid overcast above. With more experience I personally would not choose to cross the channel so low again, but that is a personal view. A few are prepared to fly low or very low and stay beneath the weather particularly to L2K, but sadly some of these pilots don’t seem to have the experience to fit accurately into the traffic pattern when they arrive, which combined with the relaxed attitude of the L2K controllers is a recipe for a problem.

[FlyingForFun]

Maybe we should be grateful that, in my experience, very few English pilots actually realise that they don't need to talk to anyone in Class E? Otherwise my money says these people would be flying around "VFR" in IMC, straight through the localiser, without talking to anyone, not realising they're doing anything wrong! :eek: :eek: :eek:

(Out of interest, probably a question for our Scottish pilots who do have Class E control areas to contend with - is it normal practice to talk to someone when VFR in these areas, even though it's not required? Just curious, not really relevant at all.)

FFF
--------------

[Aussie Andy]

Another amazingly timely PPRUNE thread from my point-of-view as I am planning my first trip to Le Touquet with a mate and 1 x pax in an Archer this coming Saturday.

What an eye opener these stories are - gving me pause for though. Surprised as I have already consulted the oracle, as it were, here on PPRUNE in another thread where over 75% of respondents to my poll suggested Le Touquet was better day trip destination than Abbeville or Eu Mers (see Vote for daytrip destination! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81110)).

Anyway, having read this, I will certainly be more careful and will be carefully watching the forecast for better-than-just-acceptable VMC before approaching LFAT...

Would Calais make a good alternative? (As opposed to aletrnate, which will be an inland airfield such as Abbeville to minimise risk of coastal wx affecting both primary and alternate airfields).

Best to all,


Andy

[Fly Stimulator]

Andy,

Having returned from an entirely straightforward and crisis-free trip to L2K yesterday I was a bit surprised to read the horror stories here. Even though the vis wasn't brilliant in the morning there was no drama at all, nobody cutting each other up, nobody doing run-in and breaks, no plagues of locusts, just a nice peaceful airfield.

It's a quiet time of year so you should be absolutely fine this weekend.

Clearly the quality of the weather and the ATCO are big factors in determining what the environment is like around the airfield, but even on busy days it certainly can be well-managed over there. I flew in during their big airshow weekend last September when it was very busy and ATC were doing a great job getting everybody in without delay and without getting in each other's way.

[Aussie Andy]

Cheers - good to hear its not always nasty then :)

[bluskis]

Andy

Take a good look at the airfield chart. The inlet makes an excellent poor viz orientation feature. As you have IR experience, the facilities available will add to your orientation. The runways are a factor of three long enough for small airplanes, they haven't had an incident for yonks.

However, serious sea fogs are a standard hazard for Le Touq, so read carefully the TAFs, look at the atlantic charts and take enough dosh to overnite if necessary.

Its only half hour to the UK coast so you can always divert back from whence you came.

Enjoy and report.

How did you get on with your Spanish trip last smmer?

[Aussie Andy]

Bluskis,

Thanks - btw, I do not have IR experience (did I say that!?) but your points on coastal features for visual nav are well taken.

The trip to Spain, Barcelona, last year (May bank holiday weekend) was absolutely stonking! 4 days, 4 aircraft, 9 lads and a woman (all PPLs, or in training but with accompanying intsructors). No time for detail now, must GET HOME!

[Fuji Abound]

I think this thread should be kept in context. I have been to L2K quite a few times. Almost without exception the welcome has been friendly, the airmanship of others sound and the controllers very helpful and professional. Problems seem to arise not surprisingly on busy days in marginal weather or weather that really is below the margin. Problems in marginal weather are always possible in any busy airspace but I think the problems at L2K can become greater because L2K attracts many making their first trip to France and often the weather there is much poorer than it was coasting out at Lydd. All in all in those circumstances a situation where new pilots may find their work load increasing because the procedures are a bit different and the weather is beginning to get the better of them and they are now reluctant to return home or follow their diversion plan because maybe that will all add even more to the pressure. I guess we have all been there or nearly there and we know we really should turn back or follow our diversion plan.

Dont be put off from a great place to visit and a good day out.

[A and C]

The problem of pepole trying to press on VFR when the weather is not confined to LFAT I was training at Calais some years back when I had to direct the student to go around at 550 ft AGL when a VFR pilot called "turning final", at the time I was still hard IMC and on the next approach we saw the runway at 350 ft AGL.

I did feel that I had to point out to this pilot the error of his ways , however he was sitting in the terminal looking very sheepish and after some discusion it would seem that he was so overloaded by the situation that he was not aware of another aircraft in the area.

This man has without doubt learnt that he should have turned back long ago but what seemed to be at the back of his mind was the problems he would have with customs if he landed at a non customs airfield.

Let me tell you that in the case of a genuine WX diversion the customs people will give you no problems what so ever.

[Static Discharge]

My worst experience at LFAT was on a clear spring day. Lots of people decided to drop in -- VFR and IFR flight plans. The controllers were incapable of taking control of the situation and ended up by just stopping to respond to people on the radio. This resulted in people on IFR flight plans entering the hold --- at altitudes already occupied by VFR types. Total confusion on the radio. Airplanes all over the place. Scared the heck out of me. Haven't been back since. Good luck.

[Aussie Andy]

Could it just be that there are one or two cr&p controllers that management have failed to deal with? This would perhaps explain the wide divergence of experiences.

[skua]

Can I just add that we should not be so hard on English pilots. I fly the Channel very regularly, albeit not mainly to L2K. However my nearest airprox came about 5 years ago in the L2K circuit. I was established on downwind at circuit height, clear of cloud, with sct cu at that level and below, but with a clear view of the field. A French registered PA 28 popped out from behind a cloud, going South bound, i.e. directly towards the centre of the field. He was not in contact with the twr, and had obviously no idea where he was. He parked up near me 10 minutes later.

Because of the French training and licensing system (not the least the lack of an IMC rating), a much greater proportion of French pilots seem to have little experience in touring (within l'hexagone, let alone foreign). Pleased to say the reverse is true, however, at my local French club).


So the danger is as much from the locals as from the Brits.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Skua,

A bit off topic, but related to your comments....

At my French club last Saturday, I rejoined the circuit in fairly mediocre VFR conditions. Called downwind for 36, wherupon someone else called that they were also downwind for 36. After a few seconds of hard searching, I spotted the other chap who was actually downwind for 18, but had got confused in poor vis after a cross country flight. He did a 180 to join behind me once he realised his mistake, promptly caught me up (he was in a TB10, me in a Rallye), and ended up landing all of 100m behind me....

The general standard of airmanship in the UK is certainly no worse than in France.

[cblinton@blueyonder.]

What are IMC rated pilots doing using their rating in France anyway?

[Fuji Abound]

"What are IMC rated pilots doing using their rating in France anyway?"


Well that brought the discussion to a conclusion.

[Go-Around]

What are IMC rated pilots doing abusing their rating in France anyway?

[Fuji Abound]

.. .. .. .. or at least very nearly.

[2Donkeys]

Are we to conclude from this pregnant pause that the abuse of the IMC rating in foreign climes is widespread... :rolleyes:

[Aussie Andy]

Why would you conclude that? Seems to imply that you think the people who contributed to the thread were perpetrating this - whereas in general they were complaining about it..!?

[Rod1]

I visit France a lot, L2K a fair bit bit, I have rarely had a problem. Do not go if the weather is poor! If the weather is very good in summer, it may get so busy as to degenerate into a free for all, but if you study the VFR procedures and keep a good look out you can still manage without too much of a problem.

As regards the IMC, why assume all these pilots have an IMC rating? I would have thought that anyone with a current IMC and therefore knowledge of IFR procedures would not blunder about through an ILS approach. On the other hand, I can see a VFR PPL being faced with bad vis, poor English radio and non standard procedures (to and English pilot), getting into all kinds of trouble. If the weather is not good don’t go. If the weather is good the vast majority of the traffic will be VFR, and the French normally speak reasonable English.

To anyone thinking of doing this for the first time, it is no as difficult as it appears from reading this thread!

[rustle]

Rod1

I would have thought that anyone with a current IMC and therefore knowledge of IFR procedures would not blunder about through an ILS approach

Ah, but there's the crux of the problem:

Perhaps their knowledge of IFR procedures evaporates at the FIR boundary along with their privileges :p

[Fly Stimulator]

Perhaps their knowledge of IFR procedures evaporates at the FIR boundary along with their privileges

Same thing happens with an NPPL I've found. Every time I got near the boundary I'd start to feel the aircraft going out of control and had to turn back to avoid a fiery death plunge into the sea. Oddly enough this didn't occur if I was in a microlight.

I could never work it out, but ever since I got another piece of paper from the CAA with the magic letters 'JAA' on it the problem seems to have gone away.

Where would we be without the JAA to standardise things and make life simple? ;)

[2Donkeys]

Just before people go into mass denial, it is worth re-reading this thread to try and recapture the original point. Like many pprune threads it has probably run its natural course and is now shooting off into other unassociated areas.

I have been contacted by a number of people directly, as a result of my original posting, and number of pilots who were present last week have either come forward or been identified. A number of very useful conversations have taken place in private, from which everybody learns.

Summarising...

There seems to be a general agreement that on weekend days on which the weather goes unexpectedly downhill, there is a tendency for a bad combination of circumstances to occur at LFAT. They are:

a) Poor quality, or easily overwhelmed ATC (Lille Approach/Info, and LFAT Tower)

b) A tendency for some British pilots to press-on into the weather, perhaps knowing that LFAT has an ILS that can be quietly skimmed down, and perhaps knowing that LFAT tends to turn a blind eye to less-than-kosha IMC VFR arrivals.

c) Arriving VFR traffic routing directly into the LFAT zone (partly because of (b) ) from the sea-side, rather than from the north, bringing it into conflict with IFR arrivals

d) Legitimate IFR arrivals

e) A tendency for some british pilots to arrive on VFR flight plans, and to ask for pop-up IFR clearances on discovering poor weather.


There are enough days that fit the general description given at the top, for this set of circumstances to occur with monotonous regularity at some times of year, and with attendant risks big enough to suggest the possibility of a serious accident at some point.

None of this should be construed as making LFAT a difficult place to fly into on a nice day, and this entire thread has nothing to do with the NPPL.

On the other hand, I would suggest that there are a number of pilots (IMC rated or otherwise), who are routinely ignoring the privileges of their licences at LFAT, and there are others (some overlap), whose lack of willingness to turn back in the face of bad weather is giving rise to serious risks on a regular basis.

Perhaps time to move on now?

[lighttwin]

I think you may be a little hard on Lille/ LFAT ATC.
Class E only offers separation IFR/IFR so intrument traffic is responsible for its own separation from VFR traffic once it pops out of the cloud - just as at say Shoreham where the instrument approach is in class G

What can the LFAT controller do with say a dozen VFR brits pootling down from Cap Gris nez? As some one pointed out, they don't have to talk to him - and he doesn't have radar. If the vis is below 8000 metres then there is an obligatory SVFR route from the north, with a minimum of 2000 metres vis.

There is a compulsory reporting "point N" 9.3 miles north of the field-better described in Delage than Pooleys - and perhaps it would help if tyros making their first cross channel trip were briefed on how to best to spot this, using satnav or a bearing from BNE VOR. I haven't been to LFAT for a while,but they never seem very bothered about ther VRP's = I suspect because "report point November" gets a puzzled response from too many.

If the visual traffic is joining left base for 14 it is going to end up on the same track as the instrument traffic

At 2000 metres vis, and 100mph, the vfr traffic is going to report "field in sight" less than one minute from the field.

If you want guaranteed separation stick to controlled airspace-Apart from the odd glitch I think the LFAT controllers do a great job- and they are NICE to brit pilots.

[2Donkeys]

Lighttwin writes:

I think you may be a little hard on Lille/ LFAT ATC.
Class E only offers separation IFR/IFR so intrument traffic is responsible for its own separation from VFR traffic once it pops out of the cloud - just as at say Shoreham where the instrument approach is in class G

This class E business is interesting. If the weather is good VMC, then of course, VFR traffic does not need to make any calls transiting the class E. Similarly IFR traffic operating in VMC has full responsibility for maintaining a lookout for other traffic. It also has a half-decent chance of spotting it, since it isn't hiding in cloud or low vis, pretending to be legal VFR.

The distinction that I am attempting to make here is what happens under MVFR or worse conditions.

Le Touquet tends not to be particularly rigorous at declaring the zone to be below VFR limits, and imposing a SVFR regime. By going to SVFR, the class E zones become relevant to VFR traffic, and the VRPs (which are in fact primarily established at LFAT for SVFR purposes) become the primary means of funnelling the entry of SVFR traffic into the zone.

Their workload problems are largely self-imposed, hence my critisism of the Lille/Le Touquet pairing. The difference is noticeable when one of the "A team" (to quote from a previous posting) is on. When the wx goes bad, the ATIS is immediately updated to reflect SVFR conditions, Lille starts to ask VFR traffic to hold at Boulogne or Hardelot and thereafter to route via November or similar.

Very easy, and minimal risk to inbound IFR traffic.

[Fuji Abound]

"I think you may be a little hard on Lille/ LFAT ATC.
Class E only offers separation IFR/IFR so intrument traffic is responsible for its own separation from VFR traffic once it pops out of the cloud - just as at say Shoreham where the instrument approach is in class G"

I recall flying the NDB DME at Shoreham a few years back. I was in the hold at 4000 feet in IMC 75% of the time with odd breaks. Thank God for the breaks because in one another aircraft appeared slightly above me with I doubt a seperation of less than a few hundred feet vertically and horizontally. To make matters worse I dont think he every saw me despite the pronounced avoiding action I had to take. Well on the ground it transpired the pilot concerned had not be talking to Shoreham but working Dunsfold (before Dunsfold closed).

My point is that whilst IFR traffic is responsible for their own seperation from VFR traffic you have to wonder firstly how a pilot can claim to be VFR in conditions described and then why he would want to transit a published instrument approach with out at least establishing whether or not the approach is active. There again I do accept in this instance Dunsfold might well have told him but I think there may be similarities here with L2K.

[rustle]

Fuji,

How do you know the other aircraft was under VFR? Surely he may have been IFR, getting a RIS from Dunsfold (ahhh) and on the correct quadrantal (FL45) for his track?

(Edit: none of which is meant to relieve him/her of staying outside published IFR approach areas...)

PS - how far have you got with your investigation into a European-wide IMC/IWR?

PPS - sorry for the hijack, 2D ;)

[lighttwin]

2D

Given say a 1200 foot base, and poor but adequate for SVFR vis, the correct procedure may be to hold vfr traffic at Boulogne - but in the real world is it the safest? I seem to recall there is a 900 foot amsl mast near Boulogne - and the thought of relatively novice pilots flying in ever-decreasing circles may not fill ATC at LFAT with joy. Some years ago someone did hit a mast near BNE.

Clearly the IMC has no validity in France- and VFR flights cannot enter cloud - but even that which is legal presents some problems, as it does in the UK.

If you tighten the regulations to eliminate all risk, hardly anyone would be able to fly. Better weather reporting from LFAT, and perhaps some Custom dispensation at say Abbeville when LFAT is below SVFR minima might make a contribution to safety.

[Fuji Abound]

Rustle - Shoreham were good enough to get Dunsfold on the land line who said he was working them VFR. Strange this VFR, I thought you at least had to be outside of cloud, but then again he popped out of a big one. Of course you are correct there would seem to be little excuse for transitting a published approach without talking to the controller responsible for that approach IFR or VFR but I guess that was part of wat this thread was about.

I hope to post an update on the IMC / IR issue shortly.

[Flyboy-F33]

Perhaps 2Donkeys would like a full time job flying the CAA around to every airfield whenever conditions are somewhat marginal so that might carry out un announced ramp checks - Get a life please, and stop being such a bloody prima donna.

[2Donkeys]

Good post... :rolleyes:

[Fuji Abound]

Flyboy-F33 2Donkeys - do you know each other, thought I should ask before making a complete prat! :confused:

[Aussie Andy]

Well it was pretty good there on Saturday. Vis. was about 5km when we got there, and it was busy, but I have no complaints about ATC who handled everything quite efficiently - must be "luck of the draw" perhaps?

Andy