Where to do PPL training: big airport or small airfield?

[Fancy Navigator]

Hi everybody
I am about to start my PPL training, but I still have not made up my mind about the location I am going to train at.
The first possibility is to train at Edinburgh airport, which is a big international airport with lots of traffic. I have been told I can expect to have long waiting times to take off/land for which you have to pay...which probably means extra costs. On the other hand, I would be flying in controlled airspace, with ATC....
The other possibility is the small airport of Fife dedicated to light aircraft only, with uncontrolled airspace, no real ATC (except a traffic frequency...) but NOT a lot of traffic, which means maximun flying time.
The rates are more or less the same (maybe 1 or 2 Pounds difference), so this is not an issue.
Anyone training at Edinburgh or Fife? or flying there?
Let me know what you think and what you would do.
Thank you for your replies
Cheers :)

[HelenD]

I would reccomend Inverness, it is both quiet and busy great for learning and a friendly place as well. I know you may say its too far but I travelled from the south coast to train there.

[Dop]

I'm currently training at Biggin Hill in Kent, and the charges are a bit steep. Particularly, when I was doing circuits, it cost a hell of a lot more per hour of circuits than per hour of doing something else - the charges for touch & goes being very expensive indeed.

Now, I could have gone somewhere else where these charges would have been considerably less, like Redhill.

Now while that's not your main criteria if expenses are similar, consider these.

My main criteria was that Biggin was considerably easier for me to get to. I don't drive, so go by public transport, and a walk, a tram and a bus gets me from my door to Biggin in just over an hour, and fares are covered by the monthly travelcard I buy for travelling to and from work. Had I gone to Redhill, it would have been a extra travelling expense on the train, and I'd have had to get a taxi to and from the airfield, so I might not have been any better off. Also it would have taken longer to get to, and I don't want to spend four hours travelling there and back for one hour's flying!

My other criteria was that Biggin is a hard strip, and Redhill is grass, which means quite often Biggin will be OK to fly from while Redhill will be closed due to soggy runways!

So I think it's worth considering all the alternatives. How easy is each airfield to get to, and how much will it be affected by weather? I don't know Fife, is it a tarmac runway or grass? Is it liable to be closed for most of the winter months due to wet weather? That's worth considering.

I suppose the other thing is if you learn at a larger airport you might be better off when it comes to dealing with ATC and other traffic in the future. Learning at Biggin, I've had to orbit on the downwind leg to allow jet traffic to come in, and I've had to do a four mile wake clearance downwind leg to avoid the turbulence from an F27. (That was only the second time I went solo. "That fokker made me go out four miles!" I said).
I would imagine if you learn at a smaller airfield it's harder to cope with more traffic? At least in the early part of your post PPL flying?

[FNG]

If you learn at a small airfield you should not have much difficultly going to larger airports when you have your PPL, IF you are properly trained. I venture the opinion that (some) pilots trained at big fields with ATC have more difficulty dealing with small a/g or non radio fields than do (some of) their counterparts who trained at the small fields. Learning to land, to do balanced turns, to navigate: that sort of stuff is the tricky bit in a flying course. Learning to use the radio and deal with ATC etc is easy.

Two suggested answers to the question:-

(1) It doesn't matter: go to the place where the school gives you the best vibes in terms of instructor attitude, aircraft maintenance, general friendliness etc.. This might be at Little Windsock in the Wold, or at Megaburg Intergalactic Spaceport. Doesn't matter.

(2) An individual choice might depend upon your future aspirations in flying. Do you wish to go professional? Do you wish to get into fast touring, IMC etc? Do you prefer grass-roots flying (grass roots usually means grass strip, but not invariably: North Weald is a grass roots sort of place, but has great big concrete runways all over the place). If flying is to be a hobby, what sort of experience and ambience are you looking for? If you are thinking of a career, perhaps the counter-intuitive approach of going for the small field is good, as when you are a 747 Captain you will (fondly?) remember and understand the base of the industry's structure, and maybe still play a part in it.

There is no right or wrong answer. I would say: choose the school before the airfield, and have fun in your course.

[Kolibear]

Choose the one with the hard runway. That way, you wont be on the ground looking up at blue skies just because it rained the previous week.

I, personally, would go for an airfield with ATC, because it forces you to became confident on the R/T

[AerBabe]

This subject has been done to death... pleeease use the search facility... :bored:

[Circuit Basher]

Fancy Navigator - I agree with Aerbabe, for the discussion of big / small, tarmac / grass, see some of the following examples (of the many which can be found by looking back a few weeks): PPL Training Discussion 1 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76647)
PPL Training Discussion 2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75786) PPL Training Dicussion 3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75225)

To try and add some local flavour, I'm not really sure where you're located, but as you suggest EDI / Fife, it kind of gives me a clue as to where to suggest.

Your options are:

EDI - probably expensive, lot of time on the ground or in the hold yielding to commercials. Good confidence builder for RT work and negotiating with ATC.

Fife - nice friendly club, good facilities and used to training ab initio. Single narrow / short runway and tricky little approach (but OK once you get used to it). I flew from there for a while before getting involved with a group that had an aircraft based at Perth.

Cumbernauld - Decent little airfield with reasonable facilities. Fewr training aircraft (I believe) than Fife / Perth, but is OK. Again, single runway (which may mean that crosswinds can be out of limits for some of your training, leading to cancelled slots).

GLA - another big airport!

Inverness - HelenD has already recommended it.

Dundee - small regional airport, so you'd get used to dealing with ATC. On the Forth of Tay, so possibly a bit prone to sea fogs / strong winds. No personal experience.

Perth - traingular runway layout (2 tarmac, 1 grass) and good friendly setup. Can be a tad chaotic regarding bookings, but if you're a patient kind of person, it's not a major problem.

My personal vote would be Perth, but I seriously countenance going to visit at least 3 possibles and talking to the CFI / getting a feel for the club and training environment. If you can afford it, pay for a trial lesson with each before committing.

HTH.

[FNG]

This is indeed one of a number of subjects which comes up repeatedly (usually at around this time of year as people think of spring and PPL courses), but people new to the forum can't always be expected to wade through pages of old stuff, especially as thread titles are not always a reliable guide to their contents. If I recall correctly, Aerbabe, one of your early postings was along the lines of "hello, I've just got a PPL, so what should I do with it?" It wasn't the first time that such a question had been asked or answered here, but that didn't make the ensuing page or two of suggestions and comments redundant.

I am probably being unimaginative (too much google literalism) , but it strikes me that search terms for the present topic which would produce useful results are not all that easy to define:

"airfield"? "grass"? "big"? "little"?

[Fancy Navigator]

Hi folks
Thank you for your replies. It's great!
I wanted to add a small detail: Circuits are not done at Edinburgh, they are done at Fife, which also means you have to fly to Fife first to actually start training.
Thanks again for your replies.
:)

[FNG]

That should not, in itself, put you off Edinburgh if it is otherwise a good choice, as you will be learning about flying from the moment you approach the aircraft to check it (from before then, if your instructor does decent briefings) and throughout the transit time to and from Fife. Presumably as Edinburgh is licensed you would be logging p/ut time for the whole trip. Even if you were flying the transit legs as a passenger, and not logging the time (presumably not paying for it either, if such were the case) , in reality your instructor would probably be letting you (making you) do all the flying and, if you don't care about hours (and if you intend to be a hobby pilot hours are, in my opinion, irrelevant: it's the fun that matters, not the numbers on the page), then why not?

Having said this, if you are paying for the time spent taxiing and holding at Edinburgh, and then having to fly to Fife to do circuits, these might be factors pointing in favour of taking Fife as your base, other considerations as to school quality, ambience etc being equal. There will be days, as you approach the solo stage, and during post-solo consolidation, when all you want to do is launch straight into the circuit. You may also find that on some days the weather will permit circuit flying, but not a cross country detail, (unless your instructor fancies demonstrating to you a bit of real-life IMC during the hop from Edinburgh to Fife).

Whatever you choose, I look forward to reading your first-solo announcement and your successful skills test announcement here on pprune in due course.

[MLS-12D]

Really it should not make any significant difference, in the long run at any case.

I was at a small airport last fall and overheard an instructor tell a person inquiring about flight training that if he planned to fly out of that airport in the future, he should take his training there so that he would be familiar with their procedures. It was all I could do not to interrupt the conversation and tell the instructor off ... a properly-trained PPL should be capable of operating out of virtually any aerodrome (aircraft carriers excepted!).

[notice]

Good point but, being from America, you didn't go far enough.
In UK, such silly 'advice' includes the essential need to be trained in/familiar with the (unique) local weather.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Small airport with hard runway is best. Well actually dead quiet large airport with radar and ILS is best but they are hard to find. Filton would be a good example.

WWW

[GroundBound]

WWW

Aldergrove is not bad - lots of runway and the commercial traffic is not *that* busy. ATC and ILS, but you've gotta watch out for the army helos though :)

Touch inconvenient for Fancy Navigator, though.

[Kolibear]

Southend meets those criteria, LARS, ILS & NDB. Bit of a long way from Scotland for circuits though :)

[Fancy Navigator]

Hi folks
I have finally opted for the small airfield (Fife Airport). The club has a great atmosphere and my instructor seems to be a very nice/friendly chap (so far ;) ). I really enjoy flying there... I never had to wait for take off or hold for landing, you take off and less than 5 minutes after, your lesson is under way (if not before....). If your lesson lasts 1 hour, you fly for one hour!
Flying out of Edinburgh would probably have been more complicated.
I recommend Fife.
:)

[jonathang]

Fancy Navigator

I trained at Edinburgh.

I was impressed by how dedicated the Instructors are. I would recommend them.


+’s

Flying from International Airport
Busy Airspace
Get to work between commercial traffic
Lots of practice with RT
Get to speak to speak to the ace Air Traffic Controller’s . They know who they are ;)
Ace Instructors

-‘s

Holding before departure
Orbiting on arrival
IFR traffic getting priority
Travel time to another airfield for circuits.
Rising prices (Thank BAA) grrr

Only you can decide. I loved flying at Edinburgh, Don’t know much about fife other than its where I did my circuit training.

What you have to remember is.

Edinburgh is a Club
Fife if a commercial flight training organization

If I had to do it again, would train at Prestwick, get the best of both worlds. ( As WWW said this would be an example of a Big Airport with ILS and Radar etc, very quiet).

Edinburgh is TACHO Hour so you do pay for taxi time.

[Holloway]

Im doing mine at manston, No hidden costs and the guys there are great!!! Great Planes, 9000ft runway, and training areas just outside the airport with full ATC and a bit of traffic which is good I think cause if u learn at a small quite field and get ur PPL and go somewhere and its really busy you would cope better if u were used to it right ??? :)

[Blinkz]

hiya. I'm thinking of starting my NPPL some time soon. I'm at edinburgh uni at the moment so am in a similair situation location-wise. The idea of flying from an international airport is very appealing to me, far more then flying from a smaller local club, althought I don't like the idea of sitting in a long takeoff queue just watching the clock as my money fades away, I'm not sure exactly how busy ediburgh is and so how much money could be wasted on the ground. I already have a gliding license so I can get an hours reduction for the NPPL, though I don't know how this affects how I change from an NPPL to a PPL when the time comes.

At the moment I glide from poatmoak which is next door to glenrothes airport. I guess I'll have to visit both edinburgh flying club and fife to see what there like. The rates at EDI are slightly cheaper by the looks of things.

any advice welcome :)

[grow45]

I flew gliders from Portmoak for many years before doing a JAR PPL with Edinburgh Flying Club (and am still a member there) so they are used to converting glider pilots to power.

I have seen holds of 15 -20 minutes at Edinburgh - both on the ground and in the air - but the ATC chaps and chapesses are usully very good about trying to slot you in as soon as they can. Also RWY12/30 (the old main runway) is often used and is right beside EFC parking so can save some time (but not at the moment as it is being used to park aircraft while they resurface the GAT).

EFC training is excellent and mixing it with serious commercial traffic in Class D airspace has certainly given me a lot of confidence (but not so as to be cocky about it) and I think my RT is up to scratch as well as a result.

Comparison of rates may be slightly deceptive as EDI landing fees are £13 a time whereas I think they are included at Fife. There is no circuit training at Edinburgh and it is done at Fife/Cumbernauld so transit time has to be taken into account but it is all part of the learning experience and can be used to practise other things.

Also factor into your calculations the cost of getting to Fife (both time and money) assunming you live in Edinburgh. I live 5 mins from EDI which to a large extent swung it for me.

PM me if you want to know more

Grow45

[Northern Highflyer]

you take off and less than 5 minutes after, your lesson is under way (if not before....).

I think it would be more useful for the lesson to start before you take off, I found knowing how to take off useful when it came to flying. :E :p

[simon brown]

FN

You dont necesarilly pay for brakes off/brakes on time.Some aircraft are fitted with a hobbs meter that only logs the actual flying time of the aircraft, but you can log all time from brakes off to brakes on. Worth checking with your prospective school. A Busy GA airfield with all the aids is excellent experience.

I trained at Gloucester with 6 runways and full facilities, with quiet airspace for initial training but with plenty of military and busy airspace for X countries and nav experience. Luckily I had the best of both worlds and wasnt paying for taxiing/holding time as a busy Sunday afternoon can be frustrating if you are paying taxi fares and not solid airtime.

If I was learning at a regional Airport i would make sure im on the hobbs and not paying for sitting there aircraft spotting waiting for all the holiday makers to depart.

[oli carley]

definatley big airport, somewhere like leeds/bradford,
nothing beats learning in controlled airspace, especially if you want to follow a career in aviation

[Brooklands]

Some aircraft are fitted with a hobbs meter that only logs the actual flying time of the aircraft...

Sorry, but I'm certain that you're wrong about this. The Hobbs meter starts recording as soon as the engine starts, and stops when you shut the engine down. Paying buy Hobbs time means that you will pay for all the holding etc.

You may be confusing it with the engine hours recorder on the tachometer, which only starts recording when the engine is running at greater than about 1000 rpm.

[QDMQDMQDM]

definatley big airport, somewhere like leeds/bradford,

Controlled airspace stuff is details. Handling the aircraft is number one -- remember 'aviate, navigate, communicate'. You can be a bad pilot and take off and land regularly on 7000 feet of tarmac without cracking up. You cannot be a bad pilot and do the same on a short grass strip.

Small field.

QDM

[Holloway]

I totally agree. I did my PPL at Manston EGMH and we have a 60m wide x 2700m Long runway. HUGE!!!!!!!!!! When I did my X Country I went to shorham and landed and took off on the grass. That was a bit hairy i must say. I think if I had to abort take off I would of ended up in the river!! Since then I have practiced short field takeoff and landins!!

:bored:

[FlyingForFun]

Contrast is the way to go.

I did my PPL at a busy, uncontrolled grass airfield. Got very good at looking out for myself in a busy circuit. Have no problems with landing on grass. But managed to get my whole PPL having only ever been to a controlled airfield once.

Then I did some hour-building in the USA, at an airfield with full ATC. Not at all daunted by talking to controllers now. Quite happy to listen to instructions, check I'm happy with them, then carry them out.

All in all, I feel that I'm a more rounded pilot from having experienced both of these. Either one without the other leaves a gap in your experiences. You may find you have to fill that gap yourself after you finish your training.

FFF
-------------

[andyb79]

there is also dundee which has atc as opposed to a/g but the commercial traffic is not to heavy so there shouldnt be to much waiting around it does only have 1 rwy but as i understand because of its location its weather doesnt get to bad

[BigGreenPleasureMachine]

Well, if you want the best of both worlds, surely Prestwick holds the answer.

Hour and a half down the road, reasonably quiet, but still a few 74s to play tig with, ATC, the longest runway your likely to get unless you fly a space shuttle and, if what my sources tell me is true, some pretty good training.

I fancy it strikes a good balance between 'grassroots' and 'big league.'

Regards, BGPM.