Flying down the florida keys

[knobbygb]

Apologies if this has been covered before.

I'm off to southern Florida for a few days in February (to collect the FAA temporary certificate, get a checkout etc.). Will be flying from Naples and would love to fly down to Key West. I know there are quite a few Ppruners who have trained/hired over there and some must have done this same trip.

I've been searching through stuff on the internet about overwater flights in the US, and the Keys seem to be classed as 'marginal overwater', i.e. "you're not actually over water, but in reality there'd be nowhere to land so you'd probably end up ditching should the worst happen". Is this true? I've never been, but it seems from the map that the only place to land would be the (probably) very busy highway.

Added to this, much of the route from Naples to the start of the Keys is over the Everglades swamp. I have read a lot of accident reports from the NTSB website which seem to suggest that, should a forced landing be required there are few really suitable landing areas in the Everglades. Many of these landing seem to end with serious injury or worse.

These same websites I've studied say that for overwater flights such as this, the only requirement is that each person aboard have a "flotation device" - even lifejackets aren't required until (I think) 50 miles offshore :eek: Having read many posts on here about Channel crossings, liferafts, wetsuits etc. I have become very aware of overwater safety. Now I know the (near) tropical waters of the Gulf of Mexico are not exactly the English Channel, but even so - no lifejacket??? :confused:

So basically my questions are:

1) Should I, as a low hours pilot, be flying down the Keys at all?
2) If I do, wouldn't I be just as safe taking a direct route across the water (80nm due South from Naples), rather than 170nm over swamps/tiny islands with nowhere to land anyway?
3) Are the suggested safety precautions re: equipment for ditching really adequate?
4) Are there sharks !!!!!!!!

I'm sure the people at NAC will cover all this, but to be honest, I'd rather have a 'heads-up' from Ppruners before I go. From what I've seen the Americans (in general, not all) seem to have a more relaxed attitude to personal safety in flight (for example the lack of requirements for lifejackets). This may be unfair, so I stand to be corrected if wrong.

Anyway, thanks for any help I can get.

[Circuit Basher]

Knobbygb - go for it!! I've only ever driven around Everglades - the idea of 100's of miles driving over lots of bridges / islands never really appealed, so I never really went down to Key West.

IMHO, lifejacket would be strongly advised.

To answer your 1 - 4:

1. Yes
2. Without looking at a map, I'd tend to opt for the 'along the road' route on the basis that if you do have to ditch, someone might see you and assist / raise the alarm.
3. I'd opt for a lifejacket.
4. No man-eating sharks, but there are plenty of crocodiles in Florida! Before the pedants get me, I believe that crocs are only an issue in fresh water, but you never know - some of them may have got a taste for food with salt on!! :D :D

Also, having done sonar trials for several months off Andros Island in the Bahamas and flown in US Navy aircraft out of West Palm, be warned - the sea isn't that warm - only a few degrees warmer than the Atlantic. Survival times don't suddenly become days!!

[spils]

I know i'm no answering your question, and pasting one of my own - and i also know that this has been the subject of major debate on these forums recently, but what visa did you get to go hour building in the states (which i assume you are doing)??

Cheers.

[PhilD]

Knobby

I agree - go for it. I flew Naples - Key West last year, and then back from Key West to Merrit Island (near the Kennedy Space Centre) with Mrs PhilD in a 172 rented from NAC. These were two of the best flying days I have done. At the time I had about 150hrs TT.

On the way down to avoid a long overwater stretch we flew towards Miami, and then turned south to follow the road down the Keys. We had no lifejackets, but we were talking to Maimi Center, then Key West, so I never felt that we were significnatly exposed in the event of an engine failure.

Down the Keys you can just follow the road - I was asked to keep the land on my right on the way down. It was easy to navigate as all the islands make such good landmarks. As you get close to EYW you need to call the Naval Base just before the town and they could ask you to stay (say) 5nm away. After that it's simple to find the airfield.

On the way back on the advice of some people in the FBO at Key West we flew up the east coast past Miami, 500' altitude and 1/2 mile offshore, under the Class B. This is a great flight and gives you a fantastic view of Miami.

Have a great time - Key West is a great destination - only wish I was going too!

[treadigraph]

For what it's worth, I've done it as a PAX from Naples to Key West in a C152.

My advice is to fly down the Keys rather than straight across... apart from anything else, the Keys are beautiful to look at from the air.

Chap at Naples Air Centre advised us to take life presevers and lent us some sort of foam jobbies which don't inflate. We stopped at Tamiami to put them on but they were a bit uncomfortable so we didn't bother on the way back. We figured that with one PPL and one "competent at the controls" in the event of the donkey quitting we'd have time from 3000 to get the things on, but this is definitely NOT recommended advice! Get inflatables if you can.

We followed the road from Naples straight across to Tamiami and then down the Keys, but flew back up the Keys to Homestead Municiple and then direct to Everglades City, thence to Naples. You're right - if it goes quiet over the Everglades there aren't many places to put down safely, and the swamps are full of 'gators! Tip: don't land at Everglades City on a hot afternoon, the threshold is right on the water's edge and we experienced something very similar to winshear which led to a rather firm arrival! Went round and tried again with a shallower approach and power - flew out of it the second time and called it a day!

The water surrounding the Keys is very shallow; if you have to ditch you can do so close to solid land - if you go straight across what - if any - land there is mostly mangove swamp; why take the slight risk of several uncomfortable hours in the water worrying about sharks (and I think you'll find they are there) while the USCG are (hopefully) looking for you!

There is also Marathon Airport about two thirds of the way down if you fancy a stop and there are some private strips enroute as well if you need to make a precautionary.

You'll need to talk to Key West NAS on the way down, but they were helpful and gave us a good view of a couple of Hornets!

Be mindful of the Balloon Cable to 14,000 ft near Key West! Marked on the sectional of course...

NAC will certainly give you plenty of good advice and I don't think you need worry about it, follow the road both ways and you'll be OK! Hope this is of help!

Enjoy it! We did, and we had a cracking lunch in the town...

[knobbygb]

Thanks. Several helpful replies so quickly.

I'm just drawing lines on the chart now, and it's not actually that much longer to go via Homestead as apposed to my original choice of route which was:

APF - X01
Follow the coast south east to (approx) Flamingo/East Cape - the most southerly point of the 'real' mainland
Due south towards MTH (approx 22nm over-water) - ideally at a good altitude - 10,000ft or more (yes, I know - odd thousand plus 500ft).
Then follow the road (subject to ATC requirements obviously), avoiding the baloon.

I sort of threw the direct overwater route in just to gauge people's opinion - as well as the safety issues there's navigation to consider over 80 miles of water. And the lack of sightseeing of course.

The coastal route above seemed best. It takes you miles from any possible diversion airfield, but then again so does Everglades to Homestead (50nm). At least following the coast would remove the need for very accurate navigation. It's just that choice of landing on open water or swamp that still bothers me. Sharks or Alligators? I personally don't mind taking the small risk either way, but I have a non-flying passenger and the responsibility of taking these risks with somebody else's life as well just hit me.

I really fancy the "Miami Beach at 500ft" thing. Probably end up doing exactly what tredigraph and PhilD did - follow Hwy 41 Naples to Tamiami or Homestead, then follow the keys all the way down and back.

Are Tamiami, Homestead or Marathon worth a stop off for coffee? What are the FBO at EYW like? Helpful?

I definatley intend to visit Everglades (as part of my checkride probably). Also going to Venice for lunch at Sharkys one afternoon. Anywhere else I shouldn't miss?

Thanks again.

[treadigraph]

Everglades City is little more than a runway, Tamiami is a big airfield, which used to host some of Kermit Weekes' treasures but sadly no more... The main purpose for stopping there was to put on the life vests. Homestead Municiple airport (not the (ex?) airforce base) has an FBO I think, but we stopped to answer calls of nature! The AFB was still active then as we watched two pairs of F-16s launch. You get routed out to the coast after leaving Tamiami to stay clear of its zone. We just did a touch and go at Marathon.

Key West FBO is probably good, but we took a taxi into town and had a meal at a restaurant on the seafront. While you're at EYW, there is (or was) a Waco UP-7 you can joy-ride in - takes two in the front seat. Cost me $40 about 10 years ago for a few minutes and I think the second pax would have been included in the price.

The 500ft is excellent - haven't done that at MIA yet, but have at Palm Beach!

Naples can get a bit busy - we were doing circuits there on a Friday afternoon when just about every type of Biz-jet decided to depart/arrive, so we took the hint and scooted across to Marco Island and did a few more there.

Have a good time!

[GonvilleBromhead]

Knobbygp,

Another good field to visit is Cedar Key, I would say that is a must see.

A shortish strip out on the west coast of Florida, a lovely approach over the water and as you're coming in, the lady on the radio will ask if you'd like a taxi into town, about $5 each way.

Well worth it. Some great seafood restaurants there, and generally a lovely old small town still very much a fishing community.

Cedar Key, Key West, and Venice I reckon were up there as my particular favourites to visit. St Augustine is good too, again make sure you take the time to head into the town.

My 'home' field when I was in Fl, Space Coast Regional is also worth a trip, decent stretch from Naples and when you get there, the Kennedy Space Center is accessible, about 15 min drive from the field (need to hire a car for the day though, can do that from HAI, the heli school for not too much). Not bad for a day out.

Tip: Refuel at Okechobee when you can, best prices around in Florida, and fairly central if you're heading north / north east for a trip, popular due to low fuel prices.

Enjoy it, get around as much as you can.

:)

[PhilD]

Knobby - some more things I remember from the trip...

Not much at Everglades City itself, but right next door is a place where you can get everglades boat rides which are worth taking if you have the time.

We originally planned to stop at Homestead, but changed our minds enroute and carried straight down to EYW. Total time from Naples was about 2h30m.

We went to Venice from Naples with the intention of going to Sharkeys, but there was a very long queue, so we had to give it a miss. Anyone else been there lately?

I think there is only one FBO at EYW - they are OK and will arrange fuel, taxis etc, but probably due to the number of visitors they are not the most friendly place we visited in Florida. You will need to pay a parking fee (no problem for us UK pilots who are used to it). The taxi into town is also quite expensive by US standards (about $7 per person if I remember correctly), again no problem for us London folk.

We flew to Marathon from Key West (and back again the same day). A great flight for a summers day. There are a couple of FBOs at Marathon, but not much else on the airfield. We took a taxi from there to the Dolphin Research Center, where you can swim with dolphins as long as you book well in advance (checkout their website). The FBO at Marathon arranged the cab for us.

Have fun!

[carb]

I never paid a parking fee at Key West - maybe you're supposed to but I wasn't going to ask. Incidently, for fuel, best plan is to land at Marathon and go to the self-service pump at the south end of the field, it's much cheaper. The FBO at the northern end of the apron is rather luxurious but charges a fair bit for parking (though they kindly waived it when I pleaded poverty and innocence).

You infact cannot fly in a straight line from Naples to the Keys as the airspace does not allow it (VFR anyway). Even routing via Everglades City (scenic - but very small runway!) you will probably still overfly the water a long way out from the road, but don't relax thinking lifejackets will save you in the event of ditching - the water is full of alligators! Or sharks, further out!

Once on the Keys you'll be directed to fly a short distance off to the right-hand side of the road (rules of the air), and anyhow there's far too much traffic to safely land on the highway I'd have thought.

But frankly, there's surely far more risk of a mid-air, or an off-runway incident at Everglades, than losing your engine overwater. Best action to take is careful fuel planning and engine mixture management etc.

Scooting across to the Bahamas is another great trip in the area - if you climb up to the aircraft's ceiling that gives you a little bit more chance of gliding to land, aswell as better fuel consumption.

[knobbygb]

Thanks again. I think I'll refuel either before setting off own the keys at Tamiami, or at Marathon. The fuel is supposed to be VERY expensive at EYW - not really surprising, and re-fuelling beforehand will mean I can get back if for some reason I have to turn around.

Carb. Yep, definatley ditched the straight over-water idea (pun?). Too boring if northing else. Not sure what you mean about not being able to do it - if you're referring to the ADIZ, I check this out in the FAR's and the only requirement is constant radio contact with controllers and a flightplan including entry and exit time from the ADIZ (to the nearest 5 minutes). Please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm by no means an expert!

Yes, Everglads City has a short runway (comparitavley), but it's nearly twice the length of the grass runway I first soloed on over here! Kind of looking forward to a bit of a challenge. I hear the real problem is the mosquitoes along the wooded path into town.

Gonville, Cedar Key was also on my 'wish list' but with a limited time, and budget, it has to be Key West! Perhaps if the weather down there doesn't look too good, I may go north to Cedar instead. I'll save the east coast until next time - plan to go to Vero Beach too, to tour the Piper factory. Do you know if it's still possible to overfly the shuttle landing facility?

Talking of weather - my international flight home is the next morning after the EYW trip - who wants to give odds on me being stranded down there by an unseasonal freak storm or somthing and having to leave the a/c and drive the 5 or 6 hours back to Naples! :eek:

[ratsarrse]

All I can say is I'm sooo jealous! You're going to be flying around Florida in what will undoubtedly be gorgeous weather, while I'll be looking up at the sky and wondering whether the nice days will ever coincide with time off work...

Have fun!

[Bubbette]

I just returned from the Everglades yesterday. I don't know about sharks, but there are a lot of alligators! Good Luck!

[carb]

knobbygb, you're probably correct about how to penetrate the ADIZ (and check the warning area status!). I was just told by one of these experts in baseballs caps that hang around FBOs that I mustn't fly through there, and as I hadn't planned to anyway, didn't check up on why not! Maybe one problem is maintaining contact with Miami Center - they don't seem to hear you from 2000ft (or maybe too busy and just ignore the little guys).

Great site for checking fuel prices and FBO reviews is www.airnav.com (http://www.airnav.com)

[treadigraph]

Well done Carb, I found that site a couple of years ago, lost the link during an upgrade (bl00dy IT dept!) and haven't managed to find it again!

Cheers Mate!

[GonvilleBromhead]

Unfortunately not any more Knobby. Pre 9/11 you could overfly it however it's now restricted. However, if you head towards Space Coast Regional or Merritt Island, you get a reasonable view of it.

Have a good time out there, wish I was going again.

[knobbygb]

Thanks again for the advice. Just thought I'd let you know how I got on.

Didn't actually manage to go down the Keys at all :( - the weather was too unperdictable and I had fears of being stuck down there. Lost 2 whole flying days to mist and rain as sucessive fronts passed (very slowly) over Southern Florida.

Anyway, did get to go to Venice, Everglades City and across to the Miami area (Tamiami). All in all a great experience - can't wait to go back, but perhaps to somewhere with more interesting scenery - the Everglades are BIG and green and wet, but not much else. ;)

Anyway, a few piccies here (http://www.pbase.com/knobbygb/naples) if anyone's interested.

[VORTIME]

Why not rent a twin and fly D->?