Surface failures above V1

[Red Ice]

What would you do?

Lets say, your above V1 on the takeoff roll, reach VR go to pull back the stick and nothing happens! What would you do?
Reach for the trim wheel!

Red Ice

[mvand003]

you say, oooooooooohhhhhhh sh*t!


Very likely, I should imagine ...

However, there may be other, and more useful/productive in the circumstances, responses to consider .... do you have any thoughts on such things ? .. which probably were the matters upon which the original poster was seeking discussion .... and, certainly, are the sort of responses which we might prefer to see in this forum.

The question is perfectly reasonable as there have been more than a few aircraft lost in just such circumstances .. often as a result of the control locks being overlooked during preflight. Further, I can recall at least one aircraft which went close to being lost as a result of a partially engaged control lock event in flight.

Just a polite request for you to consider being a trifle less flippant in your responses in this forum ...

[m&v]

in the 320 training(and later some Sim's)one can have the Sidestick fail on takeoff-not very amusing running off the end(stuff that nightmares are made of)...A good lesson in 'looking'during the take off roll-to the 'Iron cross'control displacement indicator,and having it displaced from the norm(on the horizon)..During the takeoff,should the indicator not be where directed,might be a good tome to stop-or hand over control.
I seem to remember the control indicators on the B727,and can't one displace the indic'on the TO/run(nose down elevator??)
Cheers:D

[lomapaseo]

What would you do?

State very firmly to the adjacent seat
you got it?:)

[411A]

Oddly enough, happened to a crew on a CV880 at Selatar years ago (loaded too nose heavy).
They aborted and ran off the end...no one hurt.
An FAA inspector was on board giving the FE his check ride...and mentioned later that the next time, emergency procedures were now fully covered, thank you very much.
True storey.

[CaptSnails]

Red Ice on conventional control aircraft (cables & hyd actuators) I would most definately stop and not attempt to get airborn with the trim wheel. Consider the chances you have of servival running off the end of the runway campared to getting airborn and attempting to fly the thing on the trim wheel alone. If you have control lockes on your rudder would be locked as well so your looking at pitch control through trim and bank through differential thrust. As m&v said "stuff nightmares are made of".

On fly-by-wire aircraft the sidesticks are totally independent although interconnected. We have a training procedure of one sidestick failure after V1 and the procedure there is to immediatelly hand over control to the other guy/gall who will rotate the A/C and get airborn.

[Red Ice]

Thanks for some informative feedback

Red Ice

[timzsta]

V1 discussions are always interesting. If you manage to get airborne say with use of trim wheel then flying the aircraft to a survivable landing is going to take some great skill, but is possible.

It goes totally against the rules of course but slamming in full reverse, full flap and spoiler may result in going off the end of the runways at say 60 knots, but that may be more survivable then stofing in a couple of miles down the way at a high nose down angle at say 180 knots.

Thoughts?

[Human Factor]

It is possible, although quite hard work, to fly a useful ILS and land using rudder pedals and trim wheel. Done it on a A320 (sim) although I believe the Airbus test pilots demo this on the aeroplane. Wouldn't like to do it for real though ...:cool:

[TOPBUG]

Nothing precludes stopping at or above V1 if the aircraft is unflyable. Better to run off the end of a runway than crash at high speed from altitude.

[Lu Zuckerman]

There is a story (possible myth) about a US Navy pilot that took off in a Douglas AD with his wings folded.

:eek:

[BOAC]

Yes, Lu - the 'story' says he was TP trained and instead of ejecting, flew around for over 1 hr doing 'handling trials'! :eek:

Why not, once you are 'up'?

This may be an 'urban aviation legend' - anyone know?

Questions

1) I heard it was a Crusader

2) Would you not notice the wings were folded? You know,

not enough light to read a checklist

no need for Raybans

ground crew waving at me?

[Rumbo de Pista]

If you fly a conventionally-controlled aircraft, this is a good reason to apply forward pressure on the control column for the early part of the take-off roll, and make a point of feeling the column move when you relax this pressure (at 80/100kts or whatever the manual says). This provides some confidence in the state of the controls for the early part of the take-off roll, and the statistical risk of control failure in the short time between that speed and V1 is lower than that from control checks to V1.

[lambsie]

Having completed a full and free control check prior to departure, there should be no surprises during the takeoff roll. :rolleyes:

[Final 3 Greens]

There is a story (possible myth) about a US Navy pilot that took off in a Douglas AD with his wings folded.

See the following link guys.....

http://www.vc-35andvaaw-35.org/stories/wings_folded.html

Apparently it was true!

[El Desperado]

Sorry, Lambsie, but I cite the recent Lufthansa Airbus that got airborne with the captain's side-stick cross-wired. The controls 'full and free check' showed nothing awry, and only the quick thinking of the F/O saved the day. It wasn't a control jam, but shows what can happen when the electronics are shafted.

It is a pertinent question that's worth thinking about, especially on the fly-by-wire equipment.... perhaps you disagree.. ?

[steamchicken]

411A, I think this is the one you mean

Forget posted at 1024, 10/12/2002:

Saturday afternoon, 1978 or thereabouts. Seletar Airfield, Singapore. Sat on the patio of my old RAF bungalow with a cold one. Chatting with a friend when, from the far end of the runway (which we couldn’t see because of rising ground ) an ex Cathay Convair 880 starts to roll. Conversation ceases as 880's were well before noise was an issue. Noise gets louder, and louder, and louder, behind the rising ground. He should be airborne by now, and in sight. I start walking, and then running, towards the runway. Suddenly the noise ceases as the throttles are chopped. Noise starts again, but this time it's the tyres blowing. Run faster. Get to the top of the rise in time to see the aircraft run off the end and into the gravel. Run even faster. Nose leg has collapsed and aircraft shrouded in dust. Left forward door opens and slide pops out. Captain, dressed for the occasion in uniform jacket, rolls to the ground and sees me, wearing only a pair of shorts, heading in his direction. We meet and he looks at me. I'll never forget his instant explanation, which said it all. 'It wouldn't f---ing fly!'

Nor surprising. The empty aircraft was positioning to Paya Lebar, ten minutes away, for a trip to the middle east with oilies. It later turned out that some smart individual had loaded a huge drill bit, or something similar, in the forward hold. No way that it was going to fly. Mind you, if he had got it off the ground it's unlikely he could have kept it there, and the runway heading took you over a packed residential area. So all's well that ends well.

Aargh!

[Miserlou]

A known phenomenon with ATR's is that after de-icing the stabilizer the gap can become blocked.

The procedure here is to keep pulling because it WILL fly and it will be normal from there on. You just have to increase the elevator angle until it blows through the gap.

My company experienced this and after meeting with the ATR people introduced the procedure that...the horizontal stabilizer shall always be de-iced as if it were covered with clear ice... thus the sludge gets blasted.

There has been no recorded incident since, to the best of my knowledge.

[411A]

Steamchicken

Yep, that's the one...the aeroplane was bound for Abadan, Iran.

The F/E is a very good friend and still alive and kickin'...:D

[Sheep Guts]

I am not Type Rated above 12,500LBS. So please dont scrutinise my logic. My question is what does the QRH or Manual Say, secondly what does your company SOPS say?

I wouldnt have a clue. But if it happened to me in any aircraft even the Twotter I fly, I would abort 99.9% of the time. The .1% that I wouldnt would be if you obviously didnt have any announciator, or indication of the fault until well passed rotaion and or lift off. Then you are up to it litterally and you and your entire Crew would battle the problem until undercontrol, or God forbid otherwise the opposite occurs.

Also runway length would in away still be in the back of mind no matter how hard and fast OUR SOPS and DRILLS are. If your rolling Down a Runway in the 10,000FT PLUS category in any piece of Big Iron, I would suggest staying with Terra Firma. Thats a guess by the way, as I am still learn the ropes of Big Iron flying.

Ofcourse in an Otter on 10,000ft I could hit V1/VR V2 and Vref Flap 20 stop and goes thru 4 complete cycles, before running out of strip. So in a Twotter I would abort. Irrelevant I know.

Do Sim instructors train for this scenario ( loss of control after V1 )much? I put this question to all reading this thread.


Regards
Sheep

[411A]

Sheep Guts,

Usually done at every other prof check at companies where i've worked.
L10 and B707.....split the spoilers (some work, some don't) and use the speed brake lever for pitch control. On the TriStar, worked good...the 707 was a handful.

However, on the runway...probably not enough time. Usually done after liftoff in the initial climb.

Can recall a company where I had just joined (first sim period, but experienced on type) where the sim malfunctioned, very rapid pitchup after takeoff to about 30 degrees, rapidly falling airspeed.
Split the spoilers and used the speed brake for pitch control. The brand new First Officer had NO idea what I was doing, so the instructor froze the sim (or attempted to) and tore a strip off the guy...and with good reason, because the procedure was in the abnormals in big RED letters.