Hour Building in Pairs

[spitfire747]

Just a quick question for anyone

If i was to go and do some shared hour building with another hour builder, ie 2 PPLs, who can log what in their log book.
Is it both can log the time or can just the "flying" pilot in the left seat.

[200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz]

the combined time in both your log books must not exeed the total flight time.

[moggie]

I thought this was a question from a dyslexic pilot wanting to hour-build in France.

Anyway, why is dyslexia spelt in such a difficult way? Just rubbing salt into the wounds, I reckon.

[spitfire747]

Thankyou

and Moggie have you been suffering a lack of Oxygen this morning? :-)

[GonvilleBromhead]

Sorry Spitty must be catching, I also thought you had found an amazing new deal, France's best kept secret that was to challenge Florida as the hours building capital of the world. But nah...

I'll get me coat... ;)

[DesiPilot]

Spitfire,

It all depends on where you are time building and for what ratings?
Under the FAA regulations, all the flight time post PPL, even with an instructor, is P1. If you are flying under the hood, practicing instrument flying, and there is another safety pilot, both of you can log the time. Provided safety pilot signs your logbook and you sign his logbook. All the dual time towards your FAA IR is P1 under FAA rules, the only time you cannot log P1 is when you are in actual IMC conditions.
Under JAA/CAA rule, you cannot have two PIC's for a single pilot operation. All the dual time towards IR or IMC is still Pu/t.
So if you are in USA working towards FAA ratings you can log the time as P1 (ofcourse one of you under the hood) but these P1 hours cannot be counted towards your JAA CPL-IR.

:) Jatin

[nickos37]

SPITFIRE 747,
I AM LOOKING FOR SB TO SHARE FLIGHT TIME TOGETHER TOO.I AM CURRENTLY A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR IN THE US BUT I WOULDN'T MIND BUYING A FEW HOURS IN ORDER TO LOG TIME FAST.IF YOU'RE INTERESTED TO SHARE TIME FAST YOU CAN E-MAIL ME AT: [email protected]
I KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE CAN SHARE THE COST AND LOG THE WHOLE FLIGHT TIME BOTH OF US.

[spitfire747]

Alfa

Where in the US are you

and how would you log both time

[Matthewjharvey]

Spitfire,

As ALFA is a flight instructor then he can log time as pilot in command and instruction given, you can also log time as pilot in command and instruction received.

[needajob]

I did the FAA flight instructor thing and I'm now sitting on 1300 hours. Yes, I need to convert to JAR, however, the instrument experience is valuable, especially when you are able to pick up the odd x-country ferry flight. I've thoroughly enjoyed flying in the U.S.

[masseygrad]

Are there any issues regarding being rated for the left or right seat - in the US?

In my country, you have to be certified to fly from the right seat to log any time. Otherwise, with two students flying togther, the only time the right student may take the controls, is when the PF takes a drink of water, or the likes. Common, but also illegal of course.

We also have problems with students who want to share multi-instrument time. Even when one student gets rated to fly from the right seat, intending to log 2IC time, the flight school's SOPs may not permit any logging of 2IC time if one pilot is not an instructor.

[englishal]

In the US you can both log PIC when practicing Instrument flying, one under the hood and one safety pilot. But you both have to be rated on the type of aircraft. For example, if you have no 'night rating' and you're flying under the hood with a safety pilot who is night rated, at night, then technically you cannot claim PIC for the flight! The only other time you cannot log PIC in the states is when training for a diffent type of A/C (ie. From SEL to MEL) until you have passed the check ride. Also note that one of you has to be under the hood for both to claim PIC.....(edited to add this bit in)

As far as flying from the right seat goes....in the US you can fly from either seat, no problem. Trouble is that if you have an accident and you're flying from the right seat, the insurance company may get a bit funny about it.

By the way, if anyone wants to do some hour building in California early next year, I'd be up for it, share time, instrument practice etc....

Cheers

EA

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]

[penguin]

Night rating in the US?? :rolleyes:

[englishal]

Yea, if you're flying on an FAA licence issued on the basis of a JAA licence without a NR. Then the FAA licence does not allow night flying....

[nickos37]

SPITFIRE747,
GREASER IS RIGHT,WE CAN BOTH LOG PIC BY FLYING TOGETHER AND I LOG IT AS PIC AND INSTRUCTION GIVEN AND YOU LOG IT AS PIC AND DUAL.THE OTHER WAY IS WE DO PRACTICE APPROACH,FOR EXAMPLE ONE OF US IS UNDER THE HOOD AND LOGS PIC AND THE OTHER ONE IS SECOND IN COMMAND.RIGHT NOW I'M IN NEW YORK AND I'M THINKING TO GO TO FLORIDA AROUND MARCH,IF YOU'RE INTERESTED WE CAN GET A GOOD DEAL THERE AND FLY TOGETHER.
TAKE CARE
NIKOS :cool:

[Low_and_Slow]

In the US you can both log PIC when practicing Instrument flying, one under the hood and one safety pilot. But you both have to be rated on the type of aircraft. For example, if you have no 'night rating' and you're flying under the hood with a safety pilot who is night rated, at night, then technically you cannot claim PIC for the flight!

Don't think so. Read the FARS all in part 61.51 e
--they allow loging as PIC when [1.i] "sole manipulator of the controls" and when rated [in category and class]. There is no mention of flight conditions.

Thus a PP without an IR can log PIC when sole manipulator in IMC, a PP without a complex or HP endorsement can log PIC when flying a complex/HP plane, and a brit whose license is restricted to day only can log nighttime (he is rated in category and class, but not the flight conditions).

what these people cannot do is ACT as PIC. There must be an appropriately rated person who can act as PIC and who is legally responsible for the flight.

Now--can that person acting as PIC (who is a required crew member) also log PIC? It depends--The FARS allow the person acting as PIC to log it only if
[1(iii)] more that one pilot is required under the type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

thus in the simulated instrument example, YES, since it requires a pilot and a safety pilot. In the night example [without the hood] no, since night flying does not require 2 pilots. In the night example with the hood, the fact that the person who is sole manipulator is not legally allowed to ACT as PIC should not prevent him from logging it under [1(i)].

-m

[englishal]

FAR 61.51(e)(i) "A recreational, Private or Commercial pilot my log PIC time for that flight time during which that time the person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the person is rated"

But as you don't have an IR you are not rated to fly in IMC. So as soon as you enter IMC, you can only log Dual...

(assume basic SEL PPL)....
You can log PIC in a Complex while under instruction as a Complex is a SEL aircraft, and you are rated on a SEL.

You cannot log PIC in a Twin as you are not rated for a twin.

You can log PIC in a high performance, so long as its SEL which you're rated for

You cannot even fly at night as a Brit with a JAA PPL without night rating, unless you are signed off as a Student, then you can log PIC. With an instructor beside you you can only log dual.

Also, any limitations that appear on the foreign pilot certificate are limitations that apply to the U.S. certificate that is obtained under FAR 61.75. For example, some foreign aviation authorities do not allow night flying. That means a U.S. certificate issued on the basis of that certificate could not be used at night in the U.S.

This is how it was explained to me by an FAA instructor and Examiner when training for my IR in SOCAL.

Cheers

EA

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]

[tmagee]

Anyone seeking to double log PIC is kidding themselves. You are not the kind of person we want in the industry. If someone fronts up on the other side of my desk looking for a job with that unprofessional attitude you would be straight out the door and we would seek prosecution through the authority. We need professionals in this business not schoolboys wet behind the ears! Get off your arse and earn the hours on your own!

[Megaton]

Might have guessed - HR Manager - contradiction in terms if ever there was one.

[spitfire747]

TMAGEE

thankyou so very much for your positive and well received comment to my original post. Tell me which airline company you are employed by, so i will know not to apply !!

Just so you know i am not a pthetic wet behind the ears school boy, i am an educated person trying to achieve my dream the best way i can afford to!!

[englishal]

Whats 'kidding yourself' about both logging PIC if one of you is under the hood? You're both playing an active role in control of the aircraft, and safety.

I would have thought a professional like you (?) would at least know the ins and outs of the rules and regs. Obviously you don't so it must be you who's kidding yourself that you're a professional !

[nickos37]

SPITFIRE 747,
As i have posted before two pilots logging PIC time together is absolutely right,one of them logs dual given and PIC and the other one logs flight instruction given and PIC.Another way is practicing instrument approaches,the pilot on the controls is PIC and the safety pilot logs SIC.
Don't get discouraged by people like Tmagee,we do not want such 'professionals' in the industry too,we want understanding and relaxed people with respect for others.The ones that know all the regulations inside and out and know what is right or wrong in professionalism most probably have a lot of cash in the bank and if they really want to help the industry perhaps they could give us a loan? :p

[DoleBoy]

Under old CAA Rules and now I am led to believe under JAR Rules you cannot both log PIC in a single crew Aircraft, and as I am sure your not going to be hour building in anything bigger than a light twin then you have your answer. However if you are using FAA Rules then double logging as mentioned, one under the hood one acting as safety pilot etc is allowed, But as I understood it when the rule as was pointed out to me by FCL before I went to the states to hour build, You could/cannot dual log PIC if you use those hours towards a UK/JAR Licence.

If I am wrong don't shoot me but as I said that is how I see the rules.

[Low_and_Slow]

FAR 61.51(e)(i) "A recreational, Private or Commercial pilot my log PIC time for that flight time during which that time the person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the person is rated"
But as you don't have an IR you are not rated to fly in IMC. So as soon as you enter IMC, you can only log Dual...


Huh? Yes, you aren't rated to fly in IMC, but the regulation doesn't say anything about whether you are rated for the flight conditions, only for the airplane. You are still rated for the airplane.

See
this legal opinion from the faa (http://www.propilot.com/doc/legal6.html) for details or
a somewhat less authoritative, but much clearer version. (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/aviation/faq/section-7.html)

[hellcat]

Time logged trainning for an FAA IR can be logged as P1 under FAA regs. Show the CAA your log book and it will all be discounted. I know, it happened to me.

Horay for the CAA, we all think you are realy good.

[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: hellcat ]

[englishal]

WWTDHA...

The only reason I'm arguing this so strongly is that it came back to bite me. When getting ready for my IR checkride, going through my logbook and totalling up, I was told by the CFII and FAA FE that I had to go back and change every entry that had actual IT....I had logged the entire flight as PIC, when in actual fact, any time spent in actual IMC had to be logged as Dual only (according to them). It was a pain in the arse, and now my logbook has 'Whiteout' all over it!

I notice the extract from the link you posted, under FAA response:-

"In situations where actual IFR meteorological conditions exist, as in the case presented in the above example, the safety pilot or flight instructor, as the case may be, must be pilot in command, as that term is defined under 1.1 of the FAR. "

I must admit that after reading your postings, I'm now not 100% sure as there seems to be some ambiguity involved. The only thing I recommend is that people don't log PIC in IMC during their training as they might get a nast surprise when they get together with the examiner.....I'll write to the FAA and ask directly anyhow...

Cheers

EA

[Low_and_Slow]

Englishal,

what your excperience actually illustrates is that there is little standardization among regions, and that DEs are not that well trained. I have a favorite DE (or three) and I call them if I've got this tyoe of question (since they will be the ones deciding whether to count it). I could just bring them the FAA chief council's opinion, but that really shouldn't be my job should it......

[G-LOST]

I suspect that tmagee, in his eloquent fashion, is venting frustration at the time-wasters that he must encounter who inflate their hours by dubious means. Some of them must slip through the system and cause grief to the airlines once they're already in a job. We all remember the recent highly publicised case of the charter airline first-officer who was only caught out when he applied for a command. Whilst I have no problem with people clarifying which column to log the occasional few hours in where it may be unclear, I'm sure that I am not alone in despising those who do anything they can to fudge their experience. This totally undermines the position of the majority of us, who have fought hard for every hour logged. I frequently hear rumours about people visiting the States in pairs to hour-build, with the underlying intention of both logging time as P1. I hope they get caught before they beat me to a job, or worse...

LOST

[spitfire747]

hEY hEY

This was suggested to me, i didn't know if it was allowed so i asked, good job this is anonymous, if not by the sound of it I would have been lynched ages ago

I think i will stick to loggin my own solo P1 on my own, then i know it is all correct.

Thanks for your input

[G-LOST]

Spitfire

Keep it honest, and you won't go wrong. By all means head to the States if it's significantly cheaper, but just resist that temptation to add a few P1 hours here and there. It may take longer in the long run, but you will eventually get the job you want.

Good luck.

LOST

[Megaton]

I fly with a mate from work who has his own aircraft. Now, I fly the aircraft whilst wearing a hood under IFR in VMC. Previously, we have agreed that matey sitting next to me, although he will not handle the controls, is PIC. He is responsible for seperation from other aircraft which may be VFR. Now, as far as I am concerned I am PIC and I do not care what he chooses to record in his logbook. He is, by the way, an American. So I am happy that I have acted as PIC in accordance with the spirit of the JAA regulations and he has recorded in accordance with FARs. Now, although under IFR I am still obliged to maintain seperation from aircraft operating under VFR so whilst wearing the hood I require another competent pilot in the cockpit.

I would not adocate two pilots with JAA licences hiring an aircraft between them but in the example I've outlined above I am comfortable with my logbook entries. If my American colleague wishes to log the time even though he never touches the controls then that is up to him.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Any situation where you have more than one person logging P1 sounds like a big crock to me <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Fundamental logic says that you can't have two pilots-in-command of the same aircraft because the aircraft can only go in one direction at a time. Particularly the instructor-and-student situation, that's totally outrageous! At the end of the day if there's an engine failure, or something goes badly pear shaped, of course it's the instructor that's going to be taking control and making the command decisions about how to handle the situation - therefore he/she is the pilot in command of the flight. No one else.

It doesn't really matter who is physically poling the controls at the time - I've had a couple of times in my career when I've had to make a speedy return back to base due to unpleasant instrument indications / engine coughing and spluttering etc and I've allowed my students to keep flying the aircraft, even though I'm making the radio calls and directing my student as to where to fly the machine. I wouldn't for a second consider that my student was 'in command' of the flight though. Bear in mind that being the PiC is a burden of responsibility as well, as an instructor I couldn't envisage a situation where my student would stand up in court and be prosecuted for anything dodgy that happened in flight, if I 'happened to be' on board the aircraft and logging P1 at the time as well!!

It's interesting that there are a few airlines (back home in New Zealand at least) who don't recognize P1 time logged in the States for the purpose of total time, and to be honest it's things like this that make me understand the reason why.

[englishal]

No I wouldn't log PIC for my JAA licence as mentioned above, but for of my FAA licence I would !