Crossing the Channel [Archive]

Samirlsn

20th Jan 2003, 22:12

Hi,

I'm contemplating crossing the English Channel to the north coast of France for the first time within the next few weeks in my hired PA28. It'll be a solo VFR flight, from Norwich to Calais via Dover (DVR VOR) and then back again at FL60 - I won't be landing in France. I just want to have a look around and to be able to say that I've flown to France. I've got a PPL, and have flown 90 hours (25 solo), most of which has been in America - so I'm a little unsure about what might be involved in a flight like this.

If someone could answer a few questions I have I would be very grateful!

1) Since I'm not landing in France, am I right to assume that I needn't worry about Customs?

2) Do I NEED to file a flight plan? If so, how would I go about doing that (I've never done one before)?

3) Do I NEED to be in contact with an ATSU (e.g. 124.6) while crossing the channel (I know it's probably recommended)?

4) As I understand it, I won't need clearance to enter the class E airspace around Calais - is this correct?

5) Are there any other issues involved that you think I should be aware of?

Thank you,

Samir.

Keef

20th Jan 2003, 23:05

1. You will be leaving UK airspace and entering French, so I think it would be wise to land at a Customs airport both ends. Otherwise, you might be "met" and asked a lot of questions. After all, why go all the way to France, and then not land there?

2. YES. Mandatory when crossing an international border. There are many guides to filling in FPLs - if you go to an airport with a briefing unit (such as Southend), they can help you.

3. Yes.

4. No. Arriving from abroad. If you don't talk to Lille Approach, they might send someone to check you out.

5. Yes. If you fly that route at FL60, you will be in Class A airspace for quite a bit of the trip, for which you require an Instrument Rating, ATC clearance, and a suitably equipped aircraft. I don't think you can route Norwich - DVR- ING in that airspace: there are preferred routes.

In France, VFR flights must be at intermediate 500 foot increments - refer the French AIP.

I'd suggest find an instructor or someone who's done it before, and fly with them, land at Calais (24 hours notice required for Customs) or at Le Touquet, and enjoy the différence. Have lunch there, even.

You will be surprised at how murky even a CAVOK day may seem when crossing the channel. Knowing how to use the instruments to keep on track and right way up might prove useful.

pilotwolf

21st Jan 2003, 01:27

This isn't meant to be dig at samirlsn...

..but as someone who trained in the US it never ceases to amaze me how the so called superior UK/CAA/JAA trained and tested pilots are not aware of basic requirements for flight planning and PIC responsiblities.,

Sorry if this is off thread... but I can't believe a licence was issued to someone who, (probably not due to their fault), doesn't know when a flight plan is required or how to file it.

FNG

21st Jan 2003, 07:08

Samir says that most of his hours have been flown in the US, so maybe he trained there, but, wherever he trained, I don't think that you can generalise about UK vs US training standards by reference to the hapless numptoidness of the questions posed above, and the poor level of pilot training and pilot SELF-briefing which they suggest. It is, to say the least, disappointing, that someone with a PPL and coming up to a 100 hrs TT should really need to enquire here about these things.

Samir, may I ask if you just went through your PPL course ticking off the exercises one by one? Did you not read around the subject, chat to your instructor and to other GA pilots about this, that, and the other, and take steps to inform yourself about being a pilot in command. Perhaps you are just teasing us?

Re your question (5): have you seen the "blue-blue" effect flying over water on a sunny day? If you have done any training at Norwich, perhaps you have. Why not challenge yourself just a tiny a bit and try to find Dover with the VOR switched off?

As for flight plans, there are reasons why, quite apart from mere bureaucracy or anti-terrorism blah, filing such a document might be useful. Hint: got a life jacket?

Hairyplane

21st Jan 2003, 08:31

Hi Sam'

Don't do it on your own.

Get somebody to sit with you and go through the flight planning - all simple stuff. THey don't need to be an instructor - an experienced/ competent PPL will be fine.

Plan a lunch at Le Touquet.

THe next time you go Foreign - think how impressed your pax will be when you fill out that complicated looking form - that isn't really but shhhh! - and wheel them through the terminal and into the restaurant as if you've done it 1000 times.

You are a low-timer. For safety reasons - I also point out the viz over La Manche. Even on a good day you may find that there is no distinctive horizon. Your straight and level flight may well require more than a glancing reference to your panel.

Southampton - Cherbourg is a cracking 'next step' too.

I know of many experienced PPL's who have never been 'foreign'.

All I can say is - it is no black art. Choose your day(s) carefully and never take a passenger who has to get back by any certain time. You'll stay alive that way.

HP

distaff_beancounter

21st Jan 2003, 08:37

Samirlsn
Firstly, as I see that this is your first post, Welcome to Pprune :)

I would ignore those who made comments on the lines of "you should have known that". You made the correct decision for any pilot, which is if you are uncertain about something, ask. And this forum is a great place to ask, as there are usually lots of helpful replies.

I frequently fly to France, & I would strongly advice you to follow the advice from Keef above.

In particular, do take an instructor or an experienced PPL, who is familiar with cross channel trips, with you for the first flight. If you are hiring from a school or club, then it may be a rule that hirers have to be accompanied on the first cross-channel flight, anyhow.

In a S/E engine aircraft I always go the shortest route across the channel, which is Dover to Cap Gris Nez.

One point to bear in mind, that was mentioned by the previous posters, is the visability. Last Saturday, I flew a T/E aircraft from Le Touquet direct to Lydd. Just after leaving the French coast the view ahead & all around was a bowl of seamless grey haze, with absolutely no line between the sea & sky. This is fairly common over the channel, so it is helpful to be current on instrument flying, as I assume that you have not yet got an IMC rating. ie at least comfortable in flying for 20 miles or so, with no horizon or landmarks, while tracking a VOR.

BUT, don't let us put you off, regular trips to France, is one of the joys of holding a PPL. :)

Aerobatic Flyer

21st Jan 2003, 09:15

Hi - and welcome!

5) Are there any other issues involved that you think I should be aware of?

In addition to the points mentioned above,
Wear your lift jacket from take-off to landing.
Take a life-raft. If the worst were to happen, you wouldn't last many minutes in the channel at this time of year.
French ATC aren't always very talkative.... I think Calais are better than most, but it's not uncommon not to get an answer in many places. Check the hours of service of anyone you're likely to talk to. With the 35 hr working week in France, an increasing number of ATC services now operate a reduced service, especially at weekends.
Land and have lunch! Don't be surprised if you see French pilots sharing a bottle of wine, and (personal recommendation...) don't imitate them!
File your flight plan for the return leg in plenty of time.
Remember to close your flight plans after landing!
Enjoy it!

Monocock

21st Jan 2003, 14:01

Must admit, if I was the chap I would have probably been put off going by now with some of the comments above.

Samir, I crossed for the first time a couple of years ago and I'm happy for you to send a private message so we can chat about it.

If you're going that far then make sure you land and take it all in. It would be a shame to get there and back without stopping and I'm sure the club will hire the plane at a reduced rate whilst on the ground.

Samirlsn

21st Jan 2003, 17:25

Thank you all for your input.

I've been successfully put off (for now)! I'm glad I asked though - now I know how complicated it can be I think I'll wait until I have more experience and confidence. I'll probably just go to Dover and back now. I think I was getting ahead of myself.

Samir.

slim_slag

21st Jan 2003, 17:37

Sam,

You make it out there! Just ignore all the negative comments, this is not rocket science, you have plenty of experience. The best advice which was given several times is to take somebody along with you the first time who knows what they is doing.

See one, do one, teach one :)

Somebody on this board must be willing to take him.

Keef

21st Jan 2003, 17:55

Sam - you asked and you got answers! It's not difficult, and I've sat alongside quite a few people doing their first cross-channel in my time.

Go for it! If you're going to fly to Lydd, you might as well go the next little bit, do the foreign thing, and get the duty drawback too.

I'd be happy to fly with you, either sharing the flying or just sitting there looking stupid. Stop in at Southend for Customs and Flight planning, and I'll meet you there. I can't offer you a go in our group aircraft as it's "complex" and the insurance is strict about that.

slim_slag

21st Jan 2003, 18:03

Good for you keef .

Aerobatic Flyer

21st Jan 2003, 18:19

I've been successfully put off (for now)!

Don't be! Either take up Keef's offer, or find someone else, or plan it very carefully and don't find someone else!

I first crossed the channel when I had about your hours, and shared the flying with a similarly inexperienced friend. Except for a bit of channel haze, it was a piece of cake. Hardest part of the journey was getting around London on the way home.

(Actually, the hardest part was turning down the bottle of wine at lunch, but circumnavigating London ran that a close 2nd;) )

Fuji Abound

21st Jan 2003, 21:07

I found crossing the Channel the first time the greatest concern was I did not know what to expect. I simple description would have been helpful – so here it is.

I guess it will take you an hour from Norwich to Lydd. Land at Lydd and don’t bother with a plan for this leg. The people at Lydd are very helpful. Have a chat with them. They will give you a good idea (from other pilots) what visibility is like over the channel. If you are lucky, and have chosen a good day you will be able to see France from Lydd once you are airborne. If visibility is poor, and you are reluctant to go, so what, you have had a good day out already. Alternatively, there is at least one flight school at Lydd. I am sure an instructor would accompany you for the next leg and back.

Flight plan

You will need to file a flight plan from Lydd to L2K and back. Ask a chum to run through the flight plan form with you before you go. Have the plan pre-prepared and take it with you. Also have the plan from L2K back to Lydd. All you then need to do is enter the times on the day. Both Lydd and L2K have a fax for sending plans. You ideally need to send the plan an hour before you leave Lydd, which is perfect for your coffee stop at Lydd. Check, they may accept less on the day if you wish. The plan will be simple, Lydd, FIR boundary, L2K. Don’t forget to remind your chum who helped you prepare the plan that you are expected to give your estimate for the FIR boundary, and make one of your alternates Lydd.

From Lydd

The stop at Lydd will give you a chance to put on your life jacket and have your raft ready if you take one. You can also refuel if you wish. Check you have your passport – they do sometimes check at L2K. They take credit cards if you need fuel in L2K.

All you now need to do is depart Lydd – they will know you are on a flight plan for L2K. Climb in the Lydd overhead (having told them your intention) to whatever height you like below the class A of FL55. The only advantage of climbing high is that in the unlikely event of an engine failure at FL55 you have maybe only ten minutes mid channel outside glide distance of the coast, but the weather will ultimately dictate the height you select. If you now feel uncomfortable with the weather, tell Lydd you are returning and they will cancel your plan on arrival. Do the same, if at any time you are unhappy with the visibility. As others have said, do not be surprised to find even on a good day, the horizon disappears and you have no visual clues. If this happens and you are unhappy, do a 180; as long as you haven’t plodded on, the coast behind will be visible and will give you back the visual clues.

You can stay with Lydd radio or, after you leave the coast, switch to London info. The advantage of being with London info is that most of the traffic will be working this frequency. They will have your plan, so just be ready to tell them you are on a flight plan to L2K and you estimate for the FIR. If you hear others saying they are “coasting out” this simply means they are crossing the coast – a term I found new my first time.

At the FIR change to Lille who will allocate you a squawk. It is a good idea to cross the French coast at Boulogne. The harbour stands out well, is easy to spot and there is a VOR to the south. Now follow the coast to L2K. Lille will tell you to change to L2K. Listen to the L2K ATIS – don’t worry if you don’t speak French – it is in French and English, and both the controllers at Lille and L2K speak good English.

As you approach L2K you will see the river first. The main runway runs parallel to the river. If the main is in use expect to be told to join downwind so be ready. L2K sometimes prefer to use the main when the wind favours the alternate. Do not be worried about requesting the alternate.

Simple really, so don’t be put off. The flight plan is not rocket science and you have pre-prepared both legs anyway – if you can fax a sheet of paper you are OK, departing Lydd and landing at L2K is just like any other short leg with an arrival and departure, so the only complication is losing the horizon over the channel. As others have said, if you are unhappy with a short time on instruments don’t go on, do a 180 and back to Lydd – as I said you have had a good day out anyway.

Finally, I know this is not exactly what you had in mind from your first post, but you may find it is an easier route and destination for your first time and reduces the whole experience to a single short leg.

Monocock

21st Jan 2003, 21:32

Samirlsn, don't be put off, listen to the excellent advice from Fuji Abound and you'll be fine. I have asked the moderator if I can send you an email and am happy to give you my number if you want to discuss anything. Believe me when I say one thing................when you do the trip you'll get back home and wonder what all the fuss is about.

Ignore the "head up a***e" comments from people like pilotwolf, you have worked for your licence and you need to use it before you get scared of the whole thing you have been working towards. Even people like him would have wondered how to do it at some point. When I learned to fly I was also not taught the Flight Plan procedure (albeit 14 years ago) and I had to ask somebody for some advice.

Private Message me if you want and I'm happy to talk you through it.

Monocock

P.S. The "losing your horizon" thing has been mentioned several times now. It can be a hazard but try and wait for a forecast that has a high overcast and it shouldn't be a problem. The wx mid-channel is normally the complete opposite of coastal/inland conditions especially when crossing the longer distances from Seaford and Southampton.

Whirlybird

21st Jan 2003, 22:02

I think the people who criticised a 100 hour PPL for being sensible enough to ask some very relevant questions should be....couple of deep breaths now Whirly... OK, should think before posting, and try to put themselves in his position. You don't know things if you haven't needed to do them. I didn't know how to file a flight plan till I went to Ireland and had to do it. Sure, we sort of covered it in the PPL syllabus, but I forgot it again. I suspect the critics are South-East England flyers, to whom flight plans and channel crossings are second nature. I learned to fly in Wales; I absorbed mountain flying early on, but flight plans??? You learn what you're likely to need to know. I've been to France once, with a group, so all the official stuff was done for me; if I did it alone I'd still have to look it up or ask someone. And I have 500 hours. Does that make me a bad pilot?

So like everyone's been saying, go to France, but with someone who's done it before. A murky channel crossing when the sky blends into the sea and you can't see either coast is disorientating the first time; don't try it alone. But full marks for asking what to do, and nothing wrong with your questions. Good luck, and enjoy it - good restaurant at Le Touquet. :)

Samirlsn

21st Jan 2003, 23:35

Thanks to everyone offering to help and giving advice - it's very much appreciated. But to be honest I just don't think I'm ready to make a flight like that yet. I admit I'm inexperienced. I've only had my PPL for 4 months and I've only flown 7 hours solo (25 dual) in the UK so far - and I have yet to make a solo landing in the UK at an airport other than the small A/G radio airfield near Norwich that I fly from (hence my apprehension to landing in France). I'm going to take it one step at a time from now on. I've already started planning a couple of flights where I hope to make a landing away from home. I've arranged with my dad that I will fly him to Newcastle on business next month - so that's what I'm ultimately aiming towards being able to do. Even something as straight forward as that is daunting for me at the moment, so don't think I wan't to undertake a trip to France just yet.

I will take your advice and I will remember those who have made kind offers - and I may take you up on those, but not until I've got a few more hours of flying under my belt!

Again many thanks,

Samir.

slim_slag

21st Jan 2003, 23:58

Hey Samir,

You definitely need to take this at your own pace, but also remember that sometimes you need to push the boundaries to learn. One great thing about the light aircraft flying community is they are a friendly bunch. I have learned a great deal just by being taken along on trips by friends (or even strangers) who have more experience than me. Just watching how these people do things and seeing that nothing goes wrong is a great confidence builder. As I said - see one, do one, teach one.

I'd be a bit careful about telling people you are going to take your dad on a business trip. If the rules in the UK are anything like in the US then a PPL cannot do that. You can take him if you were going anyway, but if you had no intention of going unless your dad was going along, the not so friendly regulators might consider you are getting into the air-taxi business. That's a big no-no. This sort of thing does happen all the time, but people don't talk about it in public, and if they catch you then you will be busted big time.

mumraaa

22nd Jan 2003, 00:23

Hi Sam

I am also a newly qualified PPL, and did my first solo to Le Touquet a few weeks ago, from Lydd. It really is very straightforward and you MUSTNT be put off by some of the comments on this thread, although well intentioned I am sure. You will find it a most rewarding experience.

As a new PPL I am sometimes afraid of asking questions, and find some established PPL's (particularly on this forum) quite intimidating and critical.

Having taught sailing/windsurfing for most of my life, and with many thousands of ocean miles under my belt, I understand how important seamanship is. You cannot learn seamanship by meticulously studying literature alone. It is something that has to be progressively experienced. Unless you do, you will never develop this essential skill. Seamanship comes about by a combination of study, practical experience and learning from others. I am sure airmanship is learnt in a similar way. Unless you push the boundaries you will never progress. Although, you have to guage realistically the level of the boundary you pursue. For example, it would be fool hardy for a newly qualified Coastal Skipper to attempt a solo southern ocean crossing, as it would be for a new PPL to cross the channel for the first time in poor vis.

You should go for this Le Touquet adventure, and I think you are showing exellent responsibility for asking questions on the subject matter. Intimadating remarks from the likes of PilotWolf will only help to ensure that newly qualified PPL's like myself avoid asking questions on safety in fear that we will be shot down in flames for missing the obvious. Not to mention the damage it can have on ones confidence. PilotWolf, you should be ashamed! You are obviously not an instructor.

Keef

22nd Jan 2003, 00:23

Samir

All good and relevant caution - but don't get too stuck to your little field in Norfolk.

The best thing I ever did was to team up with a couple of other guys, and fly together. Great for confidence building, and you feel a lot safer with another PPL beside you. You do need to sort out who's in charge, but that's not beyond the wit of man.

I'd be wary of the business trip - you're getting close to the line on CPL privileges, and AOC, and all that stuff.

The offer remains - when you're feeling up to a trip to France, stop off at Southend (has approach, and tower, and Customs, and ILS, and all the rest). I'll meet you there, and we can go from there to Le Touquet or Calais or Ostend, or wherever.

Southend also has a full briefing unit, so you can file your flight plan there, outbound and return.

Or if you'd rather, drive to Southend and fly with me in the Arrow to somewhere interesting.

khorne

22nd Jan 2003, 00:44

I think that all the replies to this post have failed to read the part where he says that he doesn't intend to land in France. Since you are not landing there is no need to worry about customs. The only form that needs to be filled is a flight plan and whoever gives you the form or files it for you will probably help fill it in. Thats all there is to it.

Even landing in France for the first time is much much simpler than everyone has managed to make it sound. Simply fly south until it goes from dry to wet to dry again and land on a long black bit of tarmac. No need to attempt to speak the lingo as they all speak English or you can just point and shout.

There seem to be masses of people that want to go out of their way to make every next step in flying harder than it need be, perhaps so they feel important. There is really no reason why a low hour pilot can set off to Africa let alone France. If you feel like taking someone for the first time then at least take someone who thinks it is easy and who encourages you to stretch yourself.

Circuit Basher

22nd Jan 2003, 07:40

In 4 years of flying out of Bournemouth as a PPL, I kept promising myself to have a go at an X Channel excursion but wanted to take someone along with me (not for the flying part, but more for the where and how to pay fees and what to put on drawback forms, how to file plan for the return trip, etc). Never quite got it together enough to do it with someone elese, so finally decided to go for it with a couple of pax in a PA28 (niece was newly qualified PPL at the time). Filed plan, then went to check aircraft - it was iced up, with -3 deg C and no sun on it. Went and drank coffee for 2 hours in vain hope that it would warm up, but no sign of any rise above -1 deg. Eventually had to give up and go home; that's the closest I ever got to an LFAT trip. I now live a bit far away to consider it easily.

Sam - I'd countenance going for it. Take Keef up on his offer if you have the slightest doubts (I might well do it if I lived closer). It will build confidence, but like all things in aviation (and life in general) - if your gut instinct tells you at any point that 'this isn't right' or 'I shouldn't be doing this' or 'I'm uncomfortable with the conditions, aircraft, etc' - BIN IT!!. A little frisson of excitement, even nervousness, is good - liquid adrenaline and pushing on against all odds is bad.

Enjoy - it could be the best adventure of your life so far! :D

SwanFIS

22nd Jan 2003, 12:50

Some good points so far.

As suggested a call to London Information and we can get the latest met reports at your destination, a/c reports of current conditions over the channel and a good idea of any problems talking to the French airfields.

If the worse should happen and you have problems a radio tuned to 124.6/124.75/125.47 will get a quick answer and appropriate action.

London Info, no radar but an information and help service for all pilots.

End of advert.

distaff_beancounter

22nd Jan 2003, 13:16

SWANFIS
London Information:-

- a very fine body of men & women
- much under resourced by NATS
- much appreciated by GA pilots

:) :) :) :)

FNG

22nd Jan 2003, 15:07

/Engage Christopher Hitchens "contrariwise, said Alice" mode

I may get zapped for saying this, but I’ll say it anyway. Over-confidence can of course, be a real killer in all forms of aviation. One of the clichés of recreational flying is that a hundred-hour PPL who thinks he/she knows it all is likely to be a dangerous character. Can there, however, be a potentially dangerous level of UNDER-confidence? Accidentally or otherwise, the posts from our new contributor suggest a level of, to be blunt, timidity, which is surprising in someone who has had the motivation to get a PPL in the first place. The initial posting gave the impression that Mr S planned to meander down towards France, at a level which would put him inside class A airspace if he took any sort of predictable route from Norwich to Dover, stooge about a bit, and then fly back again, apparently reluctant, for no readily apparent reason, to talk to the perfectly civilized people at Lille, Le Touquet, Calais etc, or to land on a runway which looks and functions just like a runway (even if it is called a piste), by the process of wobbling ailerons, elevators and so on through air molecules which, amazingly, behave just like the ones back home. The basic info on crossing FIR boundaries and so forth is readily available in the books, the magazines, on the boards at most flying clubs, and on dozens of websites, and tends to get chatted about in GA pilot bars and coffee rooms. Samir now tells us that he hasn’t landed by himself at anywhere in the UK other than his base field. Not even, say, at Norwich, a normal, non-scary full ATC field a few minutes flying from his base. What a pity.

I agree with those above who have made the point that crossing the channel in a light single is straightforward. Any recently qualified PPL ought to be able to do it, and it’s fun to do. Teaming up with another PPL, perhaps a fellow newcomer to the hobby, is an excellent way to make light of the workload (which isn’t really all that high anyway). Anyway, I’d better forget about lifejackets, immersion suits, rafts and the like, as after posting this I may be facing hazards more igneous than aqueous.

/Christopher Hitchens mode disengaged

Whirlybird

22nd Jan 2003, 15:08

On the noticeboard in the tower at Thruxton:

"Learning HOW to fly takes about 45 hours. Learning WHEN to fly takes a lifetime".

I think it's significant that the more experienced people are on the whole telling you to take it slowly. I remember being a very new PPL, determined not to turn into one of those people who never flew beyond their own circuit. So six weeks after I got my licence I flew from Welshpool to Oxford to meet a friend for lunch. On the way back I got lost, got found three miles from Birmingham Airport in marginal vis, and directed to the M54 by a friendly Air Traffic Controller. A good learning experience. But all sorts of disasters could have happened, and someone told me afterwards that if I was going to fly round the country, I should take a more experienced pilot along. Who was right? There's no one answer to that. I think you need to make haste slowly; bearing in mind you're inexperienced, and it's an alien environment up there. Listen to everyone, but ultimately listen to your own feelings on this. If you never push yourself, you'll never go anywhere. But if you overdo it, it'll be dangerous, and you won't enjoy it - which is after all what it's all about.

Final 3 Greens

22nd Jan 2003, 16:12

Samirlsn

Just a quick thought - do you have a JAR PPL or a FAA PPL?

If it's FAA, you cannot leave British airspace in a G-Reg plane and you would need to access an N tail nunber (you probably have this figured out already.)

Hope this helps.

BTW, I 'did' my first channel crossing during my PPL and then solo at about 70hrs.

Like a lot of things, what sounds a bit intimidating is pretty straightforward when you watched someone else show you how.

France isn't your only option either, Ostend is a fun airport with a 3200m runway and some good restaurants a cab ride away.

Plus the Belgiums are very, very nice - I work with a business school in Brussels and spend a lot of time across there ..... the ATC people reflect the national stereotypes of being relaxed and friendly - but they are also professional.

Good luck

Aerobatic Flyer

22nd Jan 2003, 18:17

Hi FNG!

It's been a couple of hours, and nobody's zapped you yet!

I think that many of us are / were under-confident as newly qualified PPLs. I know that I was. It took me a good 20 hours before I flew with a passenger, a bit more than that before I asked for a class D airspace transit, and more still before I stopped finding excuses for not flying if there was a crosswind...:o A few years on, and these problems which used to cause anxiety all seem pretty trivial.

Under-confidence can, in my experience, best be cured by patience and friendly explanation. It's certainly much more likely to succeed than sarcasm. When I started mountain flying a couple of years ago, I was reluctant to fly close to the mountainside - which is something that one has to be able to do. It made me nervous, and I'd find alternative ways that avoided having to do it. Amazingly, and with the patient help of an instructor with over 20,000 hours mountain flying experience, I discovered that the air molecules near the mountain were just the same as those further away, and that there was nothing to be anxious about as long as I understood what I was doing. From his position of experience, he could have been sarcastic about my wimpishness, but I don't think it would have helped much.

It's not really a big deal if people ask questions they should know the answer to. It's better to ask than to go on being ignorant. Yes, there are other ways of finding the answers - but on the positive side, I'm sure a lot of people have read this thread who had never crossed the channel and who now have a better understanding of what's involved thanks to some of the replies.

fullyestablished

22nd Jan 2003, 18:21

What an excellent collection of advice. I must admit I would encourage you to go as soon as possible, take up one of the kind offers to share the trip and enjoy a great lunch in France. One thing that I did not notice is mention of Fuel Excise Drawback. This is one form that I never mind filling in. Every time you fly out of the UK HM Customs and Excise will pay you 27.34 pence for every litre of fuel you can squeeze into your plane. This is because you are exporting the fuel and they give you the duty back. I go to the South of France in my plane every month and each month they send me a cheque for £130. It will be less for smaller planes but it will certainly pay for your lunch and your landing fees.

The best thing I ever did when I first got my PPL was find two friends who were outstanding pilots and fly as much as possible with them. I suspect some of those above offering to go with you may turn out to be yours!

Finally, remember that to an instructor whose live quite literally revolves around the circuit a trip in the right hand seat with you will seem very appealing.

AliB

22nd Jan 2003, 19:57

:eek:

Can we go back to the business trip thing a bit!

As I understand it - as long as you do not accept financial reward (other than "cost sharing") and are within the 90 day rule then you can take passengers under a PPL to any destination you could otherwise take youself. The reason for taking them there - their choice, your choice, their business, your business or whatever - is, AFAIK, not relevant.

It may be diffrerent in the US, as the first poster on this sub-topic suggested, but if there is a rule out there in CAA or JAA regulations I have missed that limits passenger flying from the above, then please enlighten me. :)

Ali

samson.

22nd Jan 2003, 22:06

Hi Samir,

Please don't get put off by some of the supercilious posts above, crossing the channel should be fun, and it definitely isn't rocket science as they would have you believe.

The most difficult part about the whole thing is the paperwork (customs, flightplan etc), and for that reason alone, it is quite nice to go with someone who has done it before. That is exactly what I did. If you know anyone who is a channel-crossing veteran, do try and go with them because it will definitely build your confidence (or take up one of the kind offers posted here).

I read quite a good book by Nigel Everett called (I think) 'Beyond the PPL' and it made the very important point that you should try to give yourself a bit of a challenge with your PPL. Before I get shouted at, obviously safety is the first priority. For example, try getting a few MATZ clearances, cross the channel, land at a busy airport etc. This will really build your confidence - anyone can fly the easy route from A to B, but try getting clearance through some class D or some Special VFR clearance to get from A to B next time. Much more interesting, and much more educational.

Best of luck, and don't stick to your quiet Norwich airfield - there is much more to flying than that!

Samson.

Whirlybird

23rd Jan 2003, 09:06

I've been thinking about this giving yourself challenges thing. You see, I was an over-confident low hours PPL, who thought I could fly anywhere. I think we're probably at least as common as the under-confident won't-leave-the-circuit types, and far more dangerous.

Perhaps the secret is to give yourself challenges, try new things, but ONE AT A TIME. So either fly to a new airfield OR go through a MATZ OR get a Class D clearance OR cross a large expanse of water OR travel from one end of the country to another. Once you've done some of those, you can add in others. The trouble is, if you haven't flown outside your own area or landed away in the UK, a cross channel trip requires rather too many new things. So, actually, does a trip from Norwich to Newcastle - lots of MATZes and controlled airspace en route; get used to talking to them first.

None of these things are difficult, ONCE YOU'VE DONE THEM. But if a new pilot does all of them for the first time, he/she is likely to be at the limit of what they can cope with. And then, if the workload increases at all due to weather or something unexpected, they hit overload, which can be dangerous. One option is taking a more experienced pilot along for the ride. Another is to take things slowly - which doesn't mean at snail's pace.

After all, what's the rush? France will be there next year. There is a balance between never leaving the circuit, and doing it all immediately. A PPL is a licence to learn, and nervousness is sometimes there for a reason.

pilotwolf

23rd Jan 2003, 09:31

OK so I made some assumptions but to the likes of mumraaa et al please read the first line of my post again.

My point is if this guy has been issued a CAA/JAA licence either on the basis of a checkride or a foreign licence he MUST have taken a GFT and the Air Law exams. Therefore if these subjects weren't covered by the examiner there must be a deficency in the examination process and indeed if UK trained the instruction process.

No I am not an instructor but I have flown with a good few people with different ICAO licences and there is a definate difference in knowledge standards. May be the difference is on the priority of procedures but I have encountered pilots wanting to fly a strange a/c without doing W+B and when asked why was told they had never performed one nor had any idea what density altitude was and why it was important to performance but was in possesion of a nice shiny new CAA licence.... needless to say I didn't fly with him.

Even more recently I encountered another JAA pilot who had just passed out from unknown causes, suffering shortness of breath and chest pain. Yet couldn't grasp my concern as to why he should not fly! What happened to Human Performances and Limitations?

Intersting how I seem to have been flamed more than FNG with his comments - may be it because I ve dared to bring up this touchy subject again? :mad:

Capt BK

23rd Jan 2003, 11:29

Just like to say thanks for all the fine advice in this thread. Im a relatively inexperienced PPL and as Im looking to do my CPL and IR next year im planning on broadening my horizons over the next twelve months.

Sometimes us newbies need our hands holding and it's nice to know that most of those that have already been there are willing to help:) :)

Thanks

FNG

23rd Jan 2003, 12:41

Hey Whirly, bet you were never as overconfident as this:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.fallon/movies/helo.wmv

According to the flyer forum, from whence this came, the keen rotary pupe is a fixed-winger who thinks "how hard can this helo gig be? I'll just jump in and give it a go". Ooops.

Hairyplane

23rd Jan 2003, 12:53

Wolfie, wolfie...

I know that the nettle stung but it'll soon wear off...

What did you expect?

Have you remembered everything you were taught and everything you read when you studied for your licence?

Of course not.

You will also have 'filed away' in your grey matter stuff that didn't require regular recall. File it away for long enough and the inevitable archiving process is called 'forgetting'.

Isn't the human brain wonderful??

Sami posted for some advice - your response was designed to humiliate him. Insted, he rightly got the Germolene and a cuddle.

Were you bottle fed?? Just curious.....

HP

pilotwolf

23rd Jan 2003, 14:13

Hairy Plane, et al

Well as I am obviously not allowed an opinion I m out of this debate. You obvious have no sensible argument against the points I raised so lower yourself to attacking me instead.

I have already twice pointed out that no way did I intend to humiliate Sami but you have chosen to ignore that fact or are able to read my subconcious thoughts that not even I am aware of.

Yes I ve forgtton things I learnt but know where to re-learn them if necessary. Its just a shame that Sami's training and examination was not well enough found for him to have the knowledge he requires. He didn't KNOW the answers, nor had he been TAUGHT where to find them, he hadn't FORGOTTEN them.

If as PIC I infringe LGW airspace because I didn't know how to read a chart, because I hadn't been taught it or was not aware of the need to be taught it, it would be my fault as PIC legally but the failing is with the FI and examiner who not teaching the process and for not realising the fact during the GFT. The examiner is giving you the ability to fly as PIC with pax - if you do not have the knowledge required by the CAA/JAA/FAA etc to pass the exams he has not properly examined you and is negligent in his duty surely?

IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ALREADY I DIDN'T INTEND TO HUMILIATE SAMI JUST QUESTION THE STANDARDS OF TRAINING EXAMINATION.

slim_slag

23rd Jan 2003, 14:35

pilotwolf,

I don't think there was anything wrong with your post, it brought up a good point which you have clarified. I think the problem was with another post which went 'missing'.

Whirlybird

23rd Jan 2003, 15:24

pilotwolf,

Without wishing to do this thing to death, you wrote:

"... but I can't believe a licence was issued to someone who, (probably not due to their fault), doesn't know when a flight plan is required or how to file it."

Wellllll, I guess I could look up how to fill in that damn form, and what I'm supposed to do with it...it's been a couple of years since I've flown to Ireland and last had to fill one in, and the old grey matter is a bit overloaded and has buried that bit of info. And let's see...if you're flying more than 10 miles from the coast it's a good idea to file a flight plan, and I'm sure I would...but is it actually REQUIRED...you know what, I'd have to look that one up to be certain...I know, let's ask on PPRuNe; it's easier than remembering where to look it up.

You get my point? Now, if what you meant was that many newish PPLs just barely have the knowledge needed to fly in the modern world, I'd probably agree. Maybe I mean "some", not "many" - how would I know? And yes, sometimes it's due to the...er...imperfections of rushed training establishments and low hours, hourbuilding instructors. We know all this. But I think what some of us are objecting to is the apparent tone of your posts, the "I can't believe a licence was issued" etc. A low hours PPL doesn't need that. He/she needs help, reminding, gaps filled in, whatever it is.

Your post may not have been INTENDED to humiliate Sam. But if I were him, I'd have cringed, oversensitive little soul that I am.
:rolleyes: And I think others felt the same way. That's all.

Take care, fellow rotor addict. ;)

Whirly

samson.

23rd Jan 2003, 20:05

Well done whirly - beautifully put!

pilotwolf

23rd Jan 2003, 20:11

OK so I said I was outta here but I seem to have a little support, so...

Again I would reiterate I am not in ANY trying to humilate or put down Sami or anyone else in a similar position. If anything I am pleased that he is sensible enough to realise his limits and ask for help. I ve worked things out that I didn't know - it probably would have been quicker to ask somewhere like PPRUNE but guess I m too proud and would rather work it out and then get it checked.

What bugs me is the superior attitude that CAA is best when it obviously isn't and the lack of on going support Sami seems to be receiving.

Maybe I am lucky but I have used the same instructor from 2 hrs to CPL and now into CFII and hopefully IR, (yes Whirly I finally sold it!), I know he is only an email or call away if I have a problem or need info. Maybe he is the exception - he teaches because he enjoys it and not for hour building...

The PPL is a licence to learn - a good FI will ensure that happens and not desert you the minute you pass your GFT and stop giving him/her a regular income, (I appreciate for various reasons you may have to change training establishments - but again I think that is/was a failing on the part of the school not the pilot). I m not keen to instruct but have no option, BUT hope that I will still put my 'all' into my students and continue to support them after their licence issue.

Every new challenge I have attempted has either been done with or checked with my FI first or in the company of another competent pilot to double check each other. Flying should be fun not frightening - thats why we do it!

Sami - sorry if as others believe I have humiliated you. Take the offers of flying with someone more experienced and go cross channel - even with low hours and enjoy it - maybe some day you can 'escort' another new PPL...

PW

PS Don't worry about the engine sounding rough - they all do that just after you cross the coastline!!

Whirlybird

23rd Jan 2003, 20:42

pilotwolf,

You have been very lucky. In fact I'm really envious.

I had about six instructors for my PPL(A) - and no, I didn't frighten them all off, honest! Although I could ask for advice, phoning them wasn't really done - if they were there you could ask, if not....well, I got advice as and when and where I could, or I didn't, as the case may be.

For my PPL(H) it was a little easier, and I did phone my instructors (I had two). I don't like to generalise about this as I don't really know, but I think that kind of relationship is more common in the helo world, perhaps because helo instructors earn more, and also because there are less students and they're determined to keep those they've got (I'm a cynic I know). But the sort of relationship you're describing just isn't that common. It should be, but it isn't.

I realised recently what I hadn't known - ANYONE can start a flying school, employ a freelance instructor or two as and when required, and start advertising for students. As someone pointed out to me, how else could it be; the checks and balances are at the instructor and examiner end of things. True...but it still seems all wrong to me.

Monocock

23rd Jan 2003, 20:45

Hey chaps, Pilotwolf has explained what he thinks and lets get things into perspective....

1. Samir has DECIDED not to cross the channel. He was not persuaded not to do it.

2. Pilotwolf was the first person to reply to his question and probably didn't mean to sound as harsh as he appeared to.

3. There have been some really kind offers to Samir with help and even an offer to meet up by Keef.

4. Life is short...........there aren't really that many people who fly JUST for fun...............lets bloody well get on like we normally do. If this thread ends here at least one thing will have been achieved and that is that Samir won't think he's entered a world of bitchin' by getting his licence.

Good night

FNG

23rd Jan 2003, 22:29

A few observations:-

(1) I don't agree with pilotwolf's apparent attempt to re-start the frankly tedious debate on whether training in the US is better than training in the UK. As far as I can tell, pilotwolf's position tends to be pro US, but: (a) it looks as though that is where Samir trained, and (b) who cares? the quality of your training depends upon the quality of your training, and where you find the training seems to me to be irrelevant. I am sorry that Whirly found that she couldn't talk much to her instructors. I always thought that drinking coffee, beer, and talking lots and lots and lots about every aspect of flying with your instructor was part of the course [actually, I didn't think this: perhaps I was just lucky in learning with people who were about as uninterested in getting right- hand-seat jobs in 737s as I am].

(2) I nonetheless think that pilotwolf has been somewhat unduly flamed and that people generally have been a bit too modern-touchy-feely-cuddly-luvvy-all-have-done-well-and-all-shall-have-prizes about this whole thing. I am all in favour of encouraging open discussion and the asking of questions, but I would also encourage people to re-read the opening post in this thread and ponder on what it suggests about pilot training. Even the saintly keef had to (gently and kindly) pull Samir up on the FL60 idea.

(3) Pilotwolf raises a legitimate point about the sort of PPL course which turns out a pilot who has the outlook (not merely the knowledge level) displayed by the opening post.

(4) I am much ruder than pilotwolf, and am curious as to what drove someone to acquire a PPL (usually a sign of a slightly extroverted personality) who seems so reliant upon having his hand held. Aerobatic Flyer refers to his experience in learning to fly in mountains (I am very jealous: I want to do this but have not yet found the time to do so), but I am not convinced that the sensible caution in gaining this skill of a pilot who is sufficiently adventurous to acquire the skill in the first place is comparable with the perhaps excessive caution and narrowness of ambition which some types of pilot training seem to inculcate in some new PPLs.

(5) Fire at will.