Shafted instructors read here

[Night Rider]

Surprise, surprise - Once again the subject is pay. How many times has this been discussed in this forum? And what do you all do about it?

NOTHING as usual.


The only reason flying schools get away with scandalous salaries is because there's always someone who's willing to do the job for free. The instructors who work for free are not doing GA or themselves any favour's.

Whats needed badly (and has been for some years) is a Flying Instructor Union. A minimum salary should be established and any schools not willing to pay the salary won't get any instructors and will cease to operate - good riddance.

I don't like to point the finger, but to a certain extent you instructors bring it on yourselves. If your wages are so poor, why do you continue to instruct?

:rolleyes:

[Jolly Tall]

Just to clarify your message, you presumably meant to say 'These people probably think THEY'RE doing themselves and GA a favour, but THEY'RE NOT'. They're is an abbreviation of 'they are' - 'doing' and 'NOT' do not belong to 'these people'. But of course you knew this already ;).

[Night Rider]

Jolly Tall,

Thanks for the feedback. I've rewritten the part in question and hope it is easier to understand for all.

M.

[BEagle]

Whilst I have some sympathy for your situation, you have to remember that there are currently more FIs than are needed to meet the demand from customers wishing to learn to fly. This has been exacerbated by some FTOs continuing to turn out FI(R)s who have litle chance of securing work. Hence 'market forces' are currently conspiring to make the demand for new instructors fairly limited.

Assuming that a fleet of 5 aeroplanes flew 600 hours per annum, that would make a total of 3000 hours. To pay a Flight Instructor a salary of £30 000 per annum would immediately raise the cost by £10 per hour - a minimum of £450 per PPL applicant. I doubt whether many would be happy to accept that....

So, regrettably, until there is a significant shift in the airline pilot labour market to stimulate demand for more new FI(R)s to replace those moving on to the airlines, it is unlikely that the situation is going to change and the 'benefit in kind' current low-paid FIs receive from the flying hours and experience gained from instructing is likely to be there only tangible reward.

The alternative? FTOs and RFs will be far more selective in choosing their FIs, given the number who are currently chasing a finite customer base. Those unsuccessful would then have to pay for their 'hours building'...............

The current situation is far from ideal; realistically it won't get any better in the short term and you should view your pay, low though you might consider it, and your 'free' flying hours as an apprenticeship. Sorry, but that's the brutal truth.

[MJR]

I am afraid I dont agree night rider,if a FI union insists on a minimum salary then there will be very little GA.

GA is already suffering at the hands of the environentalist due to alleged noise pollution. JAR and everything else adds a significant burden also, making the cost of GA flying in the UK more and more prohibitive.

You are right instructors should get more money when you consider there level of training, resonsibility and professionalism.
But there is no other industry like the aviation industry and at the end of the day you have a choice. Its not like you didnt know how poorly paid instructors were until you became one is it?

I am just a part time instructor and have only acheived about 250 instructional hours in the last 18 months, However I have had the priviledge of nearly £25,000 worth of flying which I have thoroughly enjoyed.

cheers

MJR;)

[ClearBlueWater]

BEagle, anyone that's up for spending several thousand pounds getting a PPL is not going to be put off by another £450.

In the scheme of the overall costs incurred learning to fly paying instructors and extra £10, or £15 if you like, an hour isn't going to make any difference at all to the punter. If it does then they're not going to be able to afford to keep up with flying once they've got their PPL.

Obviously cost is a major factor in deciding whether or not an interested party takes up flying but let's not kid ourselves about a few hundred, or a thousand, here and there. It's an expensive game and additional expense needs to be viewed relative to the existing expense.

Of course none of this changes anything because there will always be someone ready to step in to do the job for less thus keeping down everyone else's pi$$ poor pay packet. As has been discussed at great length.

[BEagle]

No. PPL trainees are, in the main, extremely price sensitive. If you think that £450 isn't significant, I'm sure that the PPRuNe fund would gratefully receive your £450!!

As I've said, too many FIs, insufficient customers. It's the harsh reality of 'market forces'.

But whilst there is a surplus of FIs, employers will keep their costs down primarily in order to attract the customer, not merely to maximise profit. All GA costs have risen under JARs and a FI(R) with 250 hours will not be seen as a sensible investment by many RFs/FTOs. However, some of us have turned away highly qualified many-thousand-hour old-and-bold-will-teach-for-free FIs in order to provide some opportunities for newcomers to the game.

(Please don't ask - we've enough to meet our needs right now)

[FireDragon]

Whilst on this subject....

As a newly qualified FI, what sort of pay per hour do you guys get? Also, do most of you work on a freelance, (paid hourly only) basis, or are some of you salaried.

Any input on this would be great - I don't know what to expect!

FD

[ClearBlueWater]

BEagle, I suppose if someone is doing just a PPL(A) then £450 may be a significant sum. My perception is that a significant proportion of the PPL student community intends to progress on to ATPL. In this case then £450, or £1000, isn't. They will know this if they've been given honest advice up front.

I speak as one who has spent £45K getting a CPL (H), wherein £450 will get you 2 hours PPL instruction and doing the CPL flying test costs £1000 including examiner fees and a/c hire. I am now looking at spending another £25K getting to FI (R) (H)! Admittedly rotary wing flying is ludicrously expensive so one becomes somewhat desensitised to the value of money, at least in the context of flying. However the interesting point is that of all the people I've met doing PPL (H) and CPL (H) few are wealthy and I doubt are any better off than your average PPL (A) or ATPL (A) student and yet they find the substantiallly larger funds required to do rotary wing flying.

Of course, if only one FTO adds £10 onto their FI's hourly rate then it will lose business. However if there was an industry wide move to raise instructors' rates then I don't believe anyone would lose any business.

I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

Your efforts to grant junior instructors half a chance in the face of superior competition are noble indeed.

[Tonker Towns]

I have just finished my IR and after spending £350 per hour in a GA7 i have no problem in asking for a suitable wage, a wage i can live on after investing 45k.
I don't expect 30k but 12k would be nice after 3 years instructing.
An increase in the price of £450 would not put people off flying if that was their passion and goal and maybe if the wage was more realistic more instructors could spend MORE time with students than worrying about getting the next one off to feed themselves.
If daddy didn't pay for your flying you all know what i mean.
This wouldn't happen in France,the fireman at the airfield aswell as the ATC(don't we know it) would all back us to the end.
In France GA flourishes!!!!

Vive la France and off wiz zer eds

ps.the sight of being overtaken by the poor owner who claims poverty, overtaking my AX in their Ferrari doesn't help

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi,

Its all very noble saying we should be paid more... and believe me.. I wish we were, but market forces dictate..

If I demand (or even ask politely) for more money I expect that my boss will either tell me to stay with my current deal or quit.... If I lose my job or leave over pay dispute someone else will be willing to fill it at the same or less than I currently get (£12 per hour, no retainer). The only stipulation I have is that if I'm not paid a retainer I only have to be at work when I have to fly, as I'm not prepared to sit around for a whole day unpaid!
Now from my point of view, say 50 hours per month (and a lot more in the summer) at £12 an hour is a lot better than 0 hours per month and £0 per hour.

Its hard through the winter season, earning less than £100 a week, but quite managable in the summer.

FI's (unrestricted) really should be on a min of £20 an hour, and a retainer.. or even a salary + hourly rate to balance out the seasonal imbalance. We should also be paid for ground briefings(say £5)(it can of course be built into the hourly flying rate).
If you think that two hours of my time, including ground brief, an hour or so in the air and debrief is not worth say £25 then try hiring a plumber.. or an electrician.. or a painter or decorator..
However I feel that this situation is somewhat unlikely to happen.

Most students will have no idea how little their instructor is actually paid, they assume you're doing quite well out of it!!!
I dont think the hourly rate makes a huge difference... sometimes being too cheap is as bad as being too expensive... the "whats the catch-there must be hidden extras" suspicions come out. As long as you're not vastly more expensive than your local competitors then a school will attract students. (though being a lot more expnesive than local competitors hasnt held back the likes of Stapleford, Cabair and so on). If people really want to learn to fly, they will pay the going rate.. and find the money

As long as there are more FI's than there are jobs available and while people are desperate for hours. I guess its a little easier to dictate your terms if you are a QFI or CFI but for the new FI(R) its a case of take whats on offer.. cause if you dont someone else will. Its just like working in MacDonalds or your local corner shop or even at a supermarket checkout... they pay very little because they know that the staff turnover is enormous, for every disgruntled teen that quits, there will be more to replace him/her immediately.

There is also very little transparency in the FI Industry.. we can all easily find out the going rate for a Jet F/O or Turboprop Captain in any airline.. but I dont have a clue how much the instructors next door earn or what the guys and girls at Stapleford or Redhill or Cumbernauld etc are earning..... or what an instructor at Oxford or BAe earn.. perhaps this is something to work on.. maybe we could set up a website with all the info on.

Sorry for the unhealthy dose of realism. They're just my personal thought and ramblings, feel free to disagree if you wish!!

Loony

[Chocks Wahay]

BEagle, I suppose if someone is doing just a PPL(A) then £450 may be a significant sum.
I have to disagree here - £450 represents less than 10 percent of the cost of a PPL in most places. I would have happily paid 10% more to get talented and motivated professional instructors rather than hours builders with no instructional ability and the marginal flying skills that 200 hrs give you. As it happens I did have, for the most part, a talented and motivated professional instructor, but I was lucky, and he left for a job that paid sensible money shortly afterwards.

My perception is that a significant proportion of the PPL student community intends to progress on to ATPL.
Not in my part of the world. Plenty start out with that intention (me included) but precious few take it all the way ..... dissuaded in part by the unmotivated depressed and underpaid FATPL holder who spent £60k getting a licence and still hasn't got a job two years later and is forced to exist on £10k for teaching.

Pay instructors properly and create a workforce that actually wants to do the job. That in turn will create better trained safer pilots, at all levels.

Whats needed badly (and has been for some years) is a Flying Instructor Union
How will that help? Unless you create a closed shop, which is never going to work (and not desirable imho)

[Tim24]

£5 an hour for briefing, you are joking! I have heard of plenty of clubs not charging at all for briefings. Where i work we charge £20 an hour for any ground briefings, of which we only get £7 but we are on a good retainer which wacks it up a bit. Even so i am well fed up with the disrespect we get from our employers who cannot even taxi an aircraft so i am now moving on to bigger and better things! I remeber i read something in a BALPA mag saying there is someone at BALPA trying to get a union for instructors organised, maybe worth getting in contact.

[Speedjeans]

Well I get paid £15 per hour while flying and nothing else which i think is better then most schools or clubs, and yes I think we should all get paid a lot more, but it would mean all the schools and clubs bumping their prices up aswell but with that people are happy to go to the Us or canada and do there PPL for next to nothing, which is what I did only to find that the british way of flying and Rt is very diffrent...

We do need to see a move/change in the GA industry but with fuel prices going up(our went up another 2p per ltr) the fuel prices dont help us at all.


I just spent $2500 renewing my Multi/IR last month and did not earn much over the last two onths due to the wx, hope the summer season is better.
Maybe a union is a good idea,maybe BALPA or the IPA should dod something, aswell as making sure that british airline only employ british citizans...
that would help!

Cheers

SJ's

[Hanger from Pans]

Some clubs not only provide instruction for the PPL but whilst the valued instructor is not flying care has been taken by the owner to develop his valuable life skills like:

Hoovering :confused:
Washing cups :(
Cleaning :mad:
Chopping wood for the fire :(
Emptying bins :mad:
Burning rubbish :rolleyes:
Manning the phones :confused:
Etc……..etc……..

All this at a bargain price to the owner at 10 quid retainer per day !

However, I’m glad that I still get a chance to be up in the air amongst this training :)

---------------------------------------------

Life is not BANANAS !

[Loony_Pilot]

Chocks Wahey

I refute the suggestion that all instructors with 200 hours have marginal flying skills and are unmotivated hours builders.... Its rude and disrespectful to the majority of instructors. Everyone has to start somewhere... we've all had that first day in a new career....if a person has passed the FI course.. they have demonstrated the requisite flying skills and talents to be instructors, end of story. Of course, there will be those in every career that excel and those who aren't up to it in the long run, or have the wrong attitude. The aircraft handling abilities of a 250 hour CPL with an FI rating are orders of magnitude better than a PPL with 45 hours. However that doesnt mean we dont occasionally make mistakes, or slightly cock up one of the demo's

Any person who has worked hard, invested heavily in their future and with high ambitions will eventually become depressed and demotivated if forced to work under terrible terms and conditions, low pay (rarely enough to actually live on)

Also, most people go thru phases of enjoying work and putting in more effort and then phases of not enjoying it so much.
Instructors are human too...not machines designed to perform at 100% ability and capacity 100% of the time. I have bad days in the office sometimes, when I cant get the message across

In my experience, the most jaded instructors are those that have been doing if for ages and are desperate to move on, most 200 hours people have a lot of enthusiasm for the job. Not that I wish tot arnish anyone with the same brush, we're all individuals and what motivates us and demotivates us varies in individual cases.

I've been instructing for a year and I put in every effort that I can towards students, I'll always go the extra mile for a student if I feel that they deserve it (ie if a student is friendly/polite, doesnt cancel lessons all the time at short notice and puts some effort into their own learning).

Yes I instruct to build up my experience, I also enjoy instructing, the feeling of satisfaction I get from someone going 1st solo, succesfully completing their QXC, passing the skills test and even getting a student who is struggling with something thru a sticky patch is second to none. Just because my overall aim is airline flying, doesnt mean I dont give a monkeys about instructing. I'm a professional and do my job to the best of my ability. I expect that the cats majority of instructors in the same situation would agree.

With regards to money I just feel that flying schools should pay their instructors for the time that they put in... not just the actual brakes off to brakes on time.. ie.. if I have a student for a 2 hour slot.. including brief, 1hr or 1h15 flight, then debrief and my pay is £12per hour.. then I should receive £24 for those two hours.. not just £15 for the flight. If its a 3 hour slot... I should be on £36... and so on......

I dont expect this to happen, as I said in my last post market forces dictate. If there is ever a shortage of instructors then pay may rise. maybe.

I'm not expecting to be paid when I dont have students..I'm not even bothered by not getting a retainer, its not a salaried postion and the school gets no income when no-one is flying..I just feel that we should be paid for the whole package... paid for our time and expertise as people in every other job are.

I'm not sure what a union for instructors would achieve..... as long as operating costs (driven largely by ridiculous tax on fuel and VAT) remain high, profit margins and instructor rates will remain low, and as long as their are many more instructors than there are jobs, people will work for less and less while they want hours.